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Saito2

Kyosho back in the day

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We all know Tamiya like the back of our hand. The re-releases aren't far off from the originals in many (but not all) cases. Kyosho is a bit different. Their re-releases are a bit different from the originals because they basically started from scratch. I'm familiar with basic feel and quality of Kyosho's plastic fantastic level of cars but never really came across their higher end offerings back in the day. So, what were the older Kyosho performance buggies (Ultima, Optima, the Mids, etc.) like back then? Obviously, they still had better plastics and more aluminum content than the average Tamiya but from what gather, the re-releases are a bit better than the originals. Thanks for any insight.

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From my experiences with a Turbo Scorpion and Optima Mid Turbo they are closer to bulletproof than most vintage cars

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8 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Obviously, they still had better plastics and more aluminum content than the average Tamiya

That might be true after Tamiya went ahead with their Hopper line, and the infamous Shot "Family" ;)

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Am I right in thinking that if you wanted to go racing back in the day, you chose a Kyosho or Team associated because of the build and materials quality, but if you just wanted to have fun, you bought a tamiya.

With the exception of perhaps the Vanquish and Avante family, I dont remember Tamiya being the first choice for racers. I'm probably going to get thrown of of TC for saying that....🙄

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1 hour ago, junkmunki said:

Am I right in thinking that if you wanted to go racing back in the day, you chose a Kyosho or Team associated because of the build and materials quality, but if you just wanted to have fun, you bought a tamiya.

I can comment on this much (at least from the perspective of my locale). In another thread, I mentioned Tamiya were viewed as "toys" by the local racers (despite the fact most of them undoubtedly started with Tamiyas). Their mainly ABS construction did not always stand up to the rigors of racing over and over again. Tamiya quality was top notch (better than Associated, I can't comment on Kyosho, as that's what my question in this thread is about) but their materials choice and designs were more frequently at odds with what competition demanded. If you raced 2wd in my area its was RC10/Ultima/JRX2. 4WD would be Optima Mid as Schumacher and Yokomo were rare in my locale. 

When the Avante came out, it was so different from what Tamiya had before, I do remember some folks picking one up. I never saw much racing action, but did hang around a lot of hobby shops as a kid with my ears open. Within 6 months to a year, I began to hear the usual complaints about the Avante. Nobody touched the Vanquish, Egress or Avante 2001 as they had been stung by the Avante. It was back to business as usual with their Mids. Outside of the odd Vanquish occasionally, I never saw an Egress or 2001 on hobby store shelves. They just wouldn't stock them.

The other issue is parts. Race cars break parts. All the Associated RC10 parts were available at shops that catered to racers. While Tamiya had the spinner rack of MRC bags with spares, they didn't have all the parts for a particular buggy. I had a Vanquish back then and if something broke and I wasn't lucky enough to find it on the rack, it was a 2 week wait at least until I got it. Racers don't want to sit out for 2 weeks. Its been stated if you wanted to campaign a Tamiya race buggy, you might as well buy two at the start just to have spares. The high volume beginner/basher  Tamiyas like the Hornet or ORVs usually had descent spares support though. The Vanquish, in comparison, was here and gone fairly quickly.

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Kyosho models were generally very durable and well-made. They had a few weak spots, mainly due to under-spec'ing parts; the plastic dogbones work fine in the Pegasus/Icarus but don't hold up in the Big Brute/Double Dare, and the original Optima had an aluminum final drive gear that wore out quickly. (Sound familiar?) And their early MSCs were failure-prone, but the later design (starting in the Optima Mid/Raider era) is rock-solid.

As far as the kits go, their instructions weren't quite up to Tamiya standards (though way better than most), but the parts fit/finish was at least as good. And the kit presentation was nicely done as well. The re-res are a huge step up in finish and refinement from the originals, but I think that probably has to do with 30 years of advancements in manufacturing techniques.

I'm actually thinking that I want to focus on old Kyosho models for a while. Skip the re-res for now, and track down a good stock Raider, and an Icarus, and maybe a Hi-Rider Vette...

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Where I raced (south-east UK), we all started off at our local club with Hotshots or Boomerangs, but once we started going to other clubs they couldn't compete with the optimas, etc.  Gradually everyone moved to CAT XlS or Optima Mids to stay halfway competitive.  There was one lad that started at my club, and his parents bought him an Avante as his first car, which just seemed way too sluggish and heavy on the steering when racing against the Cats and Mids.  The Cat was the car the very top drivers had, but it took a lot to get it set up correctly, while the Mid was more easy to run straight out of the box.

 

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4 hours ago, 73robb said:

The Cat was the car the very top drivers had, but it took a lot to get it set up correctly, while the Mid was more easy to run straight out of the box.

I've read similar sentiments in magazine reviews. If RC Car Action admits the CAT was tricky to build and set-up, it must be the truth (and those guys put a smiley face on the original Juggernaut and called it good :blink:) I gather once its dialed in, the CAT is sublime, it getting it there and keeping it there that's the trick. I'm still tempted to experience one, but being frustrated with my hobby is something I avoid so...I've never read anything particularly ill about the Mids.

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The Mid is so well-behaved that I think you'd actually have to work pretty hard to make one handle badly. I've never driven the long-wheelbase Mid (or Lazer), but the original SWB one is pretty amazing. Turn the wheel and it turns right now, no understeer at all. And you know what Optima suspension is like...

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Growing up in the 80's during the time when RC was booming, here is how I viewed things at the time and how I view things today.  Keep in mind that I was a teenager at the time, so I spent many hours ogling the Tower Hobbies catalog and hanging out at the local hobby shop:

The Tamiya brand was considered to be the defacto "standard" for beginners of "hobby grade" radio control.  Kyosho was considered "higher end" and "competition level" compared to Tamiya.  Kids bashed and raced Tamiya cars.  Adults raced more expensive and sophisticated Kyosho and Associated (and other brands) cars.  As @markbt73 already mentioned, the Tamiya instruction manuals were THE highest possible standard in terms of quality of presentation and readability.  I think that is still true even today.  This fact made building a Tamiya car a more pleasant experience for the beginner/novice builder.  Tamiya kits are still the best introduction to hobby level RC for first timers. (RTR is for the birds)

My first Tamiya car was the Super Champ.  Building it was time-consuming because it was my first "hobby quality" build and I'd never experienced anything like it before.  Lego kits did not come close.  Capsela was not even in the ball park.  Rivitron couldn't touch it.  Erector sets.... well you get the idea.  I loved building things, but this was a level of cool that went beyond.  The instructions were easy to follow and in the end I had a properly working RC car that was awesome, fast and tough.  Now, I realize that I was spoiled by starting with the Super Champ.   That car was like 87% metal, 8% fiberglass and 5% plastic.   It certainly did not represent what most kids started with for their first Tamiya car.  Most Tamiya kits are 90% plastic with parts trees that need to be plucked and burrs nicked with a hobby knife.  That would have been a very different experience for me as my first RC car kit.

A few years later I bought the Kyosho Turbo Ultima.  The instruction manual was good, a definite close second to Tamiya.   I got constantly reminded that this car was designed for competition throughout the build process.  Adjustable upper suspension links, ball bearings were stock, polycarbonate body, lightened chassis, single-piece wheels, the list goes on.  The amount of tweaking potential was mind blowing compared to the Super Champ.  Along with all of this, Kyosho kits were always more expensive than Tamiya kits.  I paid $210 (1988) for the Turbo Ultima while the Super Champ was $135 (1984).

As for Kyosho's re-releases in the past few years, they are simply at a level that goes beyond what Tamiya has done for any of their re-releases.  Kyosho didn't do a simple brushing off of the original molds and pump out kits like many of Tamiya re-re's*.  All of the Kyosho re-re's are redesigned and created from the ground up.  A considerable effort was made to ensure the essence of the original model remained, but Kyosho's designer specifically focused on fixing issues seen on the originals, modernizing drivetrain components yet somehow also keeping that vintage "look".  The quality of Kyosho's re-releases is simply outstanding both in terms of the materials used and design aesthetics.  They are what I would consider to be a true modern interpretation of the original vintage models (because literally all of the parts are brand new designs) rather than Tamiya's approach of "it's mostly vintage (using original molds) but with some modern tweaks and improvements."

And just to be clear here:  I love both Tamiya and Kyosho.  They are, almost exclusively, the only two brands of RC cars that I own.  I grew up with them and they both have a special place in my heart.  I love both of their re-releases.

* Yes, I know I'm being a little harsh here, as many Tamiya kits have received a fair number of needed upgrades that improve durability and performance compared to the original vintage kits.

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On 9/11/2019 at 12:06 PM, markbt73 said:

track down a good stock Raider

Do it!   Definitely do it!   I love the Raider.  It's such a stupid cheap chassis, but it's fun and easy to build.  I've built two of them just this year.  One of them I used the FRP chassis you can buy from eBay just to see what it is like:

image.thumb.png.9d63941564dfe8e61e56814a436dbbd9.png

 

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