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wungNits

need advice on dn-01/zahhak electronics

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hi

i just purchased a dn-01/zahhak. its been 30 years since i built my last rc car (a boomerang) and i need advice about the electronics.

what is recommended for the following:
- motor

- esc

- radio equipment (controler, reciever, servo)

- battery

im looking to get the most i can from the stock car. ill look at upgrades/hop-ups in the future.

thanks

michael

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Welcome. 

DN01 is a hidden gem.  @Juls1 recommended it couple years ago, and I am glad that I got it when it was so cheap.  

DN01 is a "basher" version of TRF201.  Even as a basher, it is already far superior to DT02 and DT03.  If you upgrade a lot, you could end up spending more than TRF201.  It would be prudent to keep upgrade to minimum.  

Motor and ESC depends on what you want to do with it.  Neighborhood race?  Just bashing?  If you are racing, you would have said something like motor limit.  So I'd assume it's just for bashing.  

1) If you want something simple, you can get 'Hobbywing Quicrun 1060 ESC.'  I think cheapest I got was about $17 on ebay.  It can handle brushed motors down to 12 turn.  Tamiya "540 Sport Tuned" is a very mild upgrade from the stock silver can.  (don't get 380 Sport Tuned, that's a smaller motor)  Sport Tuned is about $17 also.  

1A)  If that's not enough, Quicrun 1060 can handle Tamiya "Super Stock."  They are like $40, so it's expensive, but fast.  Is it worth it?  Maybe not. Because for that price, you can get a brushless motor.  

2) Simple and easy brushless combination would be Tamiya TBLE02S ESC + 13.5t sensored brushless.  TBLE02S is often supplied with many Tamiya kits.  Kit breakers sell them on ebay for about $23.  13.5t from almost any brand would work.  Many are about $40. So for the price of "Super Stock," you get a better system.  Better efficiency, brushes won't wear out, etc.  But most would require you to solder.  

Radio is also all over the place.  

If you are racing, Futaba, Sanwa and high end radios have shorter response time.  Meaning there is less lag between your radio and the servo.  For bashing, it doesn't matter much.  

I'm happy with Flysky.  Flysky GT3C is only about $40.  It's reliable, and receivers are cheap.  You can get another receiver for $6, and you can control another car.  Because it's cheap and reliable, a lot of people use it for bashing.  As mentioned, if you want faster response time, Futaba 3PV ($120) is a good starting point.  It can also control multiple models, but each receiver would be about $40.  

If you want to start simple, get a NiMH battery.  NiMH limits the amp draw, so it will also limit the performance of hotter motors.  LiPo batteries have much higher amp draw, so Super Stock or Brushless motors can spread their wings, so to speak.  iMax B6 is a good charger.  There are many clones, but people report that even clones of it do well.  So any newer charger would do. (Don't get stuff that was designed 10 years ago) 

 

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To add to what @Juggular has already said.  Its worth considering an ESC such as the Hobbywing BL120 (or something, not exactly sure of the name) or SkyRC TS120.  These are brushless ESC's rated to 120amp and can handle motors down to 4.5T or something silly, which is crazy fast and you won't need (uncontrollable with 2wd).  However, you may find you like a 10.5T motor, and they also give you flexibility of blinky mode, which means no ESC timing, or you can program the ESC to add boost and turbo which turns any sensored brushless motor into a crazy fast one.  Getting 120amp may seem overkill but it gives a lot of headroom, and should be reliable.  RCMart have the SkyRC TS120 for about US68 delivered.  You can get the program card for about US20.  That ESC should never need replacing (until you kill it by plugging the battery in the wrong way, everyone does it at least once).

http://www.rcmart.com/toro-ts120a-brushless-sensored-black-p-67556.html?cPath=1560_2230_1021

Then for a motor you have a bunch of options.  I think the Surpass V4S motors (US52 from Banggoog, check Aliexpress as well) are fantastic value for money.  A bit more than the cheapest (about US40 for the cheapest brushless motor) but they are up there with the fastest motors available.  Of course, if you go for a $40 one then just buy an 8.5T instead of 10.5T and it'll probably be as fast as an expensive 10.5T anyway.  ESC programming also mean the motor choice isn't as critical.  But for the extra $12 I think the Surpass is worth it.

https://www.banggood.com/Surpass-Hobby-Rocket-540-Sensored-Brushless-Motor-V4S-Stock-Spec-2-Sensor-10_5T-13_5T-21_5T-17_5T-RC-Car-Part-p-1291922.html?rmmds=buy&ID=520184&cur_warehouse=CN

The TBLE-02S which Juggular mentioned above is my goto for my fun cars.  The ability to switch from kit silvercan/torque tuned/sports tuned to brushless is really useful.  I don't spend money on faster brushed motors, I would prefer to spend a bit more for brushless.  Mine all get swapped around depending on what we're doing at the time (my friends, my 6yo and his friends etc).

Servo.  Look for metal geared and of around .10 sec and 7kg or more torque.  The "standard" Futaba S3003 (basically what everyone used 30 years ago) is about .18sec and 3kg.  I really rate Savox, I've run them in my offroad race buggies for a few seasons and they haven't missed a beat.  The Savox 1251MG is the low profile or Savox 1258TG is the standard sized that I use.  They are about US60.  However, the Trackstar TS-D99X is basically the same spec as the 1251MG for US25 from Hobbyking.  I don't believe the specs, it doesn't seem quite as good as the 1251MG but its good enough.  I run them in my onroad racers.  I have just ordered a couple of JX pdi-4409 which are only US13 each and they have the same spec too.  I have no idea how good they are, but I've heard JX servos aren't bad for the price, and these are going in play cars rather than racers so worth a punt.

Radio - Flysky is cheap and cheerful and does the job.  It does feel cheap compared to the higher end systems though.  I have a range including Flysky, Sanwa and Futaba.  It is a case of you get what you pay for.  The key things to look for are:

Price of receivers (really important, Sanwa are US80 each and its expensive to add cars)

EPA - end point adjustment.  The cheaper radios don't have it (eg, FlySky GT2) and you need it to adjust the steering travel (it hits on some cars and you either twist the chassis or wear out the servo as it tries to go past the point it can) and also you can slow the cars down if any younger or less experience people want a turn.  And everyone wants a turn.

Multiple model memory - some radios only bind to 1 receiver so you need a radio per car.  Others have between 10 and 40 model memories.  You may want some single ones so you can run cars together, or just run them on your own and not share and just need one.  The Futaba 3PKRA isn't a bad option for a single one, it has EPA and is Futaba quality at a more affordable price.

Battery - as Juggular says, get a charger that can charge all types, even if you go for NiMH initially.  Around 6amp charge rate and 60w is fine for what I do (2s lipo batteries and NiMH).  I find having both NiMH and lipo works well as its horses for courses.  NiMH don't need taking care of so you can keep them charged and they are great when the kids want to play as I slow the cars down anyway.  Lipo make a big difference to performance.  Careful on the physical size of NiMH, the bigger the capacity the bigger the size and the bigger ones don't fit all the rere buggies properly.

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thanks for you're replies.

i intend to use it as a basher. 

thanks for you're info. answers many questions. 

michael

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Welcome! I had a Zahhak and I loved it. I ran a 13.5t motor and geared correctly it was plenty fast. Slightly contradicting Jonathan above i would avoid the Surpass motors for offroad. They have massive cut outs in the body for cooling and dirt gets in them super easily. I have had really good fun with these cheap brushless motors from ebay

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F162631223972

If the kjt comes with the tamiya TBLE02S ESC use that, it's fine. If it doesn't, i agree with people above, get a Hobbywing 10BL120. It's unlikely to fit under the body with the fan fitted but i ran mine with the fan removed with no trouble. 

Gearing - the stock gearing is really low. For 13.5 brushless i would recommend getting a Team Associated B4 72t spur gear and a 48dp pinion of 27t.

Body - the Zahhak is an acquired taste in terms of looks. The Sand Viper and TRF201 shells from Tamiya and the Caynk from Team Azarashi all fit. 

Finally, tyres. The kit tyres are ok for carpet or tarmac, but not great for anything else. Get some good tyres for the surface you want to run on. I ran on grass and astroturf so i got the wide 4wd version of the Schumacher cut stagger for the front and a mini spike rear. 

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25 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Slightly contradicting Jonathan above i would avoid the Surpass motors for offroad. They have massive cut outs in the body for cooling and dirt gets in them super easily.

A few of us run these at my outdoor offroad club on dirt which gets everywhere without an issue. One used to run a RC10 rere with the motor hanging out the back, and 2 of us run them mid motor and never had a problem. I think those big cutouts allow the dirt to get out too. When you look at any new motor they all have big cutouts and most people get a few seasons out of their motors, generally changing because the next generation has come out and they are slipping back in the rankings.

I know, weird eh,  i was really worried about dirt getting in them, turns out i didn't need to be worried.

Interesting about the gearing, was the DN01 produced in the days of mod brushed motors?

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55 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

A few of us run these at my outdoor offroad club on dirt which gets everywhere without an issue. One used to run a RC10 rere with the motor hanging out the back, and 2 of us run them mid motor and never had a problem. I think those big cutouts allow the dirt to get out too. When you look at any new motor they all have big cutouts and most people get a few seasons out of their motors, generally changing because the next generation has come out and they are slipping back in the rankings.

I know, weird eh,  i was really worried about dirt getting in them, turns out i didn't need to be worried.

Interesting about the gearing, was the DN01 produced in the days of mod brushed motors?

Interesting info in the motor. Thanks. 

The design dates back to the mid-noughties so i guess brushless wasn't quite so prevalent then. Although that said the stock gearing is just under 9 which is great for mod class running 6.5 or 8.5 which is what it was designed for. 

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If you want the gearbox to be  bombproof,  you can fit a 32 pitch spur gear, I had a problem striping the tamiya spur gears, now I have a 32 pitch 54 tooth team associated with a 17 tooth pinion on it ,with a 5700kv motor, I also have a kyosho gear diff in it I did not like the ball diff with a little modding it fits and I have a serpent steel idle gear in the gearbox that is the same size as the tamiya one.

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9 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

A few of us run these at my outdoor offroad club on dirt which gets everywhere without an issue. One used to run a RC10 rere with the motor hanging out the back, and 2 of us run them mid motor and never had a problem. I think those big cutouts allow the dirt to get out too. When you look at any new motor they all have big cutouts and most people get a few seasons out of their motors, generally changing because the next generation has come out and they are slipping back in the rankings.

I know, weird eh,  i was really worried about dirt getting in them, turns out i didn't need to be worried.

Interesting about the gearing, was the DN01 produced in the days of mod brushed motors?

Running on a dirt track is different than running on dirt in a random lot/park. If a small piece of gravel gets into your motor it could rub against the rotor and cause damage. run fully closed can motors in my local park for that reason. Also, most people that aren't racing don't replace motors every season.

I'm not trying to discount what you are saying, just pointing out that track running can be different than general bashing.

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I would def upgrade to the metal diff cups from the 201. The plastic ones that come with the dn01 get stuck when you go to rebuild the ball diff down the road. If im not mistaken a regular silver can, torque tuned ect. will not fit. They recommend a super stock bz which i did have when i first built mine and was pretty good. I now run a castle 4600kv. Like someone else said you can go down the rabbit hole and upgrade a ton like i did. 

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You can go as expensive or as cheap as you want.  ;)  It really just comes down to how much you want to spend on it.  There are still a lot of TRF201 hop-up parts available so you can build a very stout Zahhak if you want to or you can keep it pretty stock and just use electronics that won't break the bank but will allow you to start having some fun.  I try not to add up what I spent in my Zahhak...  :blink:

Letting everyone know your desired budget will help a lot...

 

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For 2WD "racey" buggies, I really like Hobbywing Justock combos with 17.5 or 13.5 motors. Geared correctly, there's plenty of zest to appreciate the chassis without overpowering it, and they're relatively inexpensive, especially considering how well they drive, and they're dead reliable, too.

I always use a shorty lipo and low-profile servo for weight distribution and to free up some space. Futaba radios are my choice. The reliability and ergonomics are worth the extra dough, and you can usually find them used to save a few bucks. The 4PL/please is a fantastic choice and does everything you can think of. I use a 4PX (discontinued) that I scored cheap new when the 7PX came out.

For buggy bashing tires, the Pro-Line Dirt Hawgs work ok everywhere, Slide Jobs or Hoosiers are good for tarmac and hard pack.

There's nothing wrong with very inexpensive electronics, but I've found that speccing my cars appropriately for the chassis type and intended use with quality mid-level components really enhances my enjoyment.

It's far too easy to overpower a chassis, which ruins it for me. I often don't enjoy driving other people's cars because of this. Slow/weak servos absolutely ruin high-spec chassis. It's a very common mistake, too.

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I can tell you from experience that proline dirt hawgs do not look right on this buggy and take away handling. They are a little bigger than standard 2.2 tires and screwed up the handling of my dn01. For street use i use duratrax bandito in the rear and jconcepts ribs in front.  Off road proline holeshots

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thanks again for the feedback. its extremely helpful.

i've started building the chassis since my last post and it is a big step up in difficulty from the boomerang.

it looks like i lack the experience to really appreciate higher end electronics just now. My hope in terms of budget is to build something I can enjoy but can afford to make mistakes whilst i rrelearn the ropes.

Nobody round here has a car and there is no local track i can find so i wont be racing

what ive learnt/decided so far:

- a brushless 13.5t motor (preferably no soldering needed)

- a tamiya tble-02s esc.

- a NiMH battery

- radio: still looking. i need one with two sticks you control with you're thumbs, not the trigger and wheel type.

 

as for the servos, how much of a difference does a good servo make? they vary a lot in price.

 

michael

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8 minutes ago, wungNits said:

as for the servos, how much of a difference does a good servo make? they vary a lot in price.

They do make a big difference, you want something with a reasonable speed (.10 secs is about right, faster is better as you can slow it down on your radio). You also need enough torque to turn the wheel, I have heard on high grip carpet that people need 13kg cm which is the Savox 1258TG to properly turn the wheels on their buggies. I haven't had any problems with torque of 7kg cm though.

I would get low profile too, there was a comment here that it frees up space.

The more espensive the better durability and the more likely the claimed specs are correct. As i said earlier, the savox 1251MG feels a bit better than the Trackstar TS-D99X, but its US35 more expensive. Both of those appear to be as druable as each other, I run savox in my race buggies and they have lasted 3 years, and i bought them secondhand. A friend at the club has run the TS-D99X for a few seasons and it is still fine.

The JX servo i have ordered but not received are a test to see if they are as good as the specs claim - for US13 i thought it was worth a punt. It will be as good as any US13 servo as you really do get what you pay for.

If i were you, i would either take a punt on the JX servo or buy the Trackstar as the safe option, its twice the price but in my experience works.

 

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Also, keep in mind that Savox servos can be pretty amp hungry (pulling over 3 amps at times).  Depending on the ESC, you may need an external BEC.  I am using the Savox SC-1258TG in mine but with a Tekin RS Gen2 ESC which has an internal BEC of 5.5 amps.

 

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