great debates

[Saito2 2810]

Being in the hobby for awhile now (ok, most of my life, lol), one is bound to witness some debates crop up from time to time. I could think of two off the top of my head.

1. original Hot Shot gold plated wheels. We all know the boxart depicted gold wheels but most agree the buggy never had them (stock anyway). Still there were a few that swore they opened sealed kits back in the day which had the gold wheels present.

2. Sport Tuned motor turns. Is it 23 turns or 27 turns with advanced timing? Someone tore one apart (Blackholesun maybe?) though I can't recall the findings. Then there's the theory the US got 27T while Europe got 23T.

Has any of these debates been laid to rest? I remember the Hot Shot wheel issue being hotly contested on Tamiyaclub in the early days. Any other debates lingering in the shadows? 

[Busdriver 1675]

1 hour ago, Saito2 said:

2. Sport Tuned motor turns. Is it 23 turns or 27 turns with advanced timing? Someone tore one apart (Blackholesun maybe?) though I can't recall the findings. Then there's the theory the US got 27T while Europe got 23T.

Ive just taken a delivery of a silver sports tuned motor (cheaper than Black, though both available) box says 23T with "tuned" timing. I beleive the Black is still 27T. I have both so will have to maybe fit them into the same model and see what effect they have?

[graemevw 787]

Dont tamiya themselves quote 23 and 27 turn dependant on location for the sports tuned? Sure ive seen it mentioned somewhere official.

[Superluminal 1544]

13 minutes ago, Busdriver said:

Ive just taken a delivery of a silver sports tuned motor (cheaper than Black, though both available) box says 23T with "tuned" timing. I beleive the Black is still 27T. I have both so will have to maybe fit them into the same model and see what effect they have?

Very very keen to see the results of this!!! Please can you start a thread or update when you get a chance. Will be interesting to see considering its half the price of the superstock motors which are also 23 turn

[SuperChamp82 482]

Great question @Saito2

Differentiating the first 50 or so vintage kits into a reliable Mk1, 2, 3 etc is another best put to bed

And fwiw @Hibernaculum and @Mokei Kagaku have pretty much proved it’s equivocally flawed 

Shades of window glass in the first 3 Porsche’s ?

Discontinued vintage box art paint ? And was it right anyway ?!

Def motor gearing + suspension tuning 

Which plastic part breaks first ... 😂

[No Slack 103]

What about the debate about the Conrad motors? The debate runs for years without a clear outcome.

[Saito2 2810]

44 minutes ago, No Slack said:

What about the debate about the Conrad motors? 

Is there any debate? I was under the impression that Conrad motors were THE Chuck Norris of the RC motor-world.

[Yalson 452]

1 hour ago, No Slack said:

What about the debate about the Conrad motors? The debate runs for years without a clear outcome.

That would be appropriate, given that the motor can run at full power for 36 months on a single set of cells.

[Alwb68 66]

The original Hot Shot had white wheels, never gold.

They came with the Hot Shot2.

What I find funny with all of these debates and discussions is that with such a dedicated fan base and supporters of a company, that company does not seem to talk back to the people keeping it in business. And let’s face it a tough business to keep going in this age of PlayStations and Xboxes.

[SuperChamp82 482]

58 minutes ago, Alwb68 said:

The original Hot Shot had white wheels, never gold.

They came with the Hot Shot2.

What I find funny with all of these debates and discussions is that with such a dedicated fan base and supporters of a company, that company does not seem to talk back to the people keeping it in business. And let’s face it a tough business to keep going in this age of PlayStations and Xboxes.

Spot on all round - and worth a separate thread @Alwb68

I came to the sad conclusion that Tamiya hasn’t (and won’t) engage with us atm for the same reason a bath plug doesn’t like water ?

Where things can only go one way unless the taps are on ...

And if comedy re re is the extent of fresh water / thinking then Tamiya are a rapidly draining reservoir vs ocean of new ideas ?

Personally, I hope 3D printing / Incredible  new polymers bail them (and us) out - so epic design resurfaces ... and it liberates previously unyielding stress points 😬

Either way - Tamiya not engaging with however many of us really care about them on here is a v good question sir

[Juggular 3432]

Back in October 1990, Tamiya did say 23turn rotor was put in the silver can (RS-540SH; which has 27turn x 0.65mm wires).   

 

As far as google translate + 3 decades of anime addiction could tell, it says;  

RS-540 Sport Tuned Motor   

[RS-540SH] (0.65mm x 27T) (to) 0.8mm x 23T wrapped rotor used, basic tuned motor. Metal axle accepted. 350g-cm/18300rpm/12A. Axle is 4mm longer. Optional Part 68. 1500Yen. (In stores now)  

I don't know why it says 23T and "wrapped" twice. (possibly, Japanese 10 year olds don't know what T stands for) Also, all axles are metal. 

Because Japanese say things backwards;  

RS-540 Sport Tuned Motor  

Basic tuned motor, which uses 0.8mm x 23T wrap rotor in(to) [RS-540SH] (0.65mm x 27T).  Metal axle accepted.  350g-cm/18300rpm/12A. 4mm longer axle. Optional Part 68. 1500Yen. (In stores now)  

Just like @Busdriver said, the new one also says 23t.  

 

Blackholesun said it was 27turn.  He noted that the shaft was shorter than what the 90's photos show.  (The new version has a shorter shaft too).  He suspected that 27t rotor with advanced timing might have been used during the production of Sport Tuned.  

The new one doesn't have advanced timing.  I just ran it forward and backward with a 3.7v battery.  It's same in both directions.  That got me curious about old ones.  I unplugged this old motor (circa 2002?) and stuck its bullet-connectors into a XT60 battery connector directly (7.4v).  It ran same in both directions also.  

The 2 Sport Tuned motors (silver one from 2019 and black one from 2002) have 0-timing.  Or close to zero, because I couldn't tell. 

I've had many stock motors with advanced timing.  You can tell one direction is faster the other.  (Just to make sure that my memories are not playing tricks on me, I tested a Reedy 24-degree advanced timing motor just now.  Yep, you can definitely tell.)  

Sport Tuned doesn't sound like one direction is faster. 

 

 

I'd say Sport Tuned has been 23T without advanced timing.  (I cannot explain Blackholesun's experience--unless the production was altered as he suspected.  He never said it was slower going backwards either.  If his motor had an advanced timing, you don't need to take the motor apart.  Going slow in one direction would have been obvious.)  

 

[Juggular 3432]

9 hours ago, Superluminal said:

Very very keen to see the results of this!!! Please can you start a thread or update when you get a chance. Will be interesting to see considering its half the price of the superstock motors which are also 23 turn

Super Stock is definitely faster.  Stronger magnets maybe?  

Here is a test.  Sport Tuned is 0.5km faster than the silver can.  Super Stock is 1.2km faster than the silver can.  

Wild Willy 2 has ridiculously low final drive ratio of 18.  So the difference could be much larger in buggies with Final Drive Ratio of 8 or 7.   

 

 

[Superluminal 1544]

5 hours ago, Juggular said:

Here is a test.  Sport Tuned is 0.5km faster than the silver can.  Super Stock is 1.2km faster than the silver can.  

Ah yes! BUT... thats the old black can Sport Tuned that was possibly only 27 turns when opened up. Not the brand new silver can Sport Tuned that replaces it that now actually says printed on the box that it is 23 turns.

[moffman 2346]

20 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Being in the hobby for awhile now (ok, most of my life, lol), one is bound to witness some debates crop up from time to time. I could think of two off the top of my head.

1. original Hot Shot gold plated wheels. We all know the boxart depicted gold wheels but most agree the buggy never had them (stock anyway). Still there were a few that swore they opened sealed kits back in the day which had the gold wheels present.

2. Sport Tuned motor turns. Is it 23 turns or 27 turns with advanced timing? Someone tore one apart (Blackholesun maybe?) though I can't recall the findings. Then there's the theory the US got 27T while Europe got 23T.

Has any of these debates been laid to rest? I remember the Hot Shot wheel issue being hotly contested on Tamiyaclub in the early days. Any other debates lingering in the shadows? 

I love a good debate on a light hearted subject (hobby) especially at the moment with the rubbish that's going on!, the sport tuned 27T or 23T never really bothered me because eather one was better than the standard and looked better, The hot shot gold wheels on my little bit of knowledge back when the original Hot Shot made an appearance I lived in a village which lucky for me had an rc car club every Friday night in the school hall/gym which me my cousin were a member of and another club member was the local village postmaster (remember them) and he had been to Japan for a holiday we were amazed that he'd been to Japan (got to remember just going to Spain was almost almost unheard of back then never mind JAPAN) anyway we got talking as you do about what car you wanted I had at the time a woefully inadequate for racing Ford ranger he said when he was over Japan he seen adverts for a new racing buggy called the hot shot 4wd and he bought one and he was in the process of building it the following week there it was at the club I was just amazed it was actually 4wd and yes it had gold rims...........BUT he had sprayed them gold as he said at the time "to look like the one on the box" they were originally white now that buggy must have been a very original Mk1 because it hadn't even been announced in the UK! 

[Saito2 2810]

9 hours ago, Juggular said:

I don't know why it says 23T and "wrapped" twice.

Wrapped twice could mean 23 Turn double (two smaller wire strands wrapped 23 times together) but I'm almost positive the Sport Tuned is a "single" motor and not a "double" so that's out.

 

9 hours ago, Juggular said:

Blackholesun said it was 27turn.  He noted that the shaft was shorter than what the 90's photos show.  (The new version has a shorter shaft too).

I'll postulate that the longer shaft of the early version may have been down to initial application. IIRC, the Sport Tuned first saw the light of day (in a kit, anyway) in the Avante 2001. For reasons unknown to me, Tamiya used the Egress motor mount plate in the 2001 which would have necessitated a longer shaft. Indeed, even in today's re-releases, one can not simply install a run-of-mill short shaft silvercan (or currrent-day Sport/Torque Tuned) in the Egress as the shaft is too short to use with the motor mount plate. Why Tamiya didn't simply use the unique stamped plate developed for the Vanquish (which re-positioned the motor to allow for short shaft motor usage, as the Vanquish carried a 540 silvercan stock) is beyond me. It would have saved spec'ing a special, long shaft Sport Tuned for it initial run. I'm going to guess the first batches were like the Avante 2001's and then shortened later on for cost reduction reasons (and as the Avante 2001s requiring motor replacements faded into the background)

9 hours ago, Juggular said:

I'd say Sport Tuned has been 23T without advanced timing.

Out of curiosity, has the rotation arrow on the sticker always been present from the beginning on black can Sport Tuned motors?

9 hours ago, Juggular said:

The new one doesn't have advanced timing.  I just ran it forward and backward with a 3.7v battery.  It's same in both directions. 

So I see the new silver Sport Tuned lacks a rotation direction arrow. This is good news for twin motor truck (Clod-style anyway) owners needing a slight performance boost.

[Saito2 2810]

Speaking of wheels, were the optional gold plated wheels offered as an upgrade at the exact same time as the Hot Shot's introduction? If so (one would imagine they were, as the box minimally depicted them, if not actually containing them), is it possible some of the optional gold wheels were added to "already produced" completed kits by another party (distributor, LHS, etc)? The kits are sold unsealed in Japan, so popping in the gold wheels wouldn't have altered anything. Personally, I'm in the "it never came with gold wheels camp" but I'm trying to give some credence to those folks so certain their kit came with them back in the day.  

[Stefan(2) 85]

That happened later to ( additions or , not listed items )

When i ordered kits straight from Japan , i always took the one's without the ESC .

( with ESC, they had a decal on them , on the box )  , and i did not want that. )

And as most of those kits where for collection  , not for build.. i did not want to spend the extra on a never to be used ESC.

 

 

A few kits came with a stock ESC anyway,  without the decal on the box.

Added by the seller..  or added by Tamiya ,  who would know..

 

No, you could strap me for to a torture chair for weeks, i can't remember what kits they where.

The TT-01 as it was original,  was still one of the most kommen chassis to order.

 

 

[skinned 128]

I've read the early grasshopper chassis's said off-roader in the front.... but I've never seen one before...

[Juggular 3432]

6 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Wrapped twice could mean 23 Turn double (two smaller wire strands wrapped 23 times together) but I'm almost positive the Sport Tuned is a "single" motor and not a "double" so that's out.

 

Out of curiosity, has the rotation arrow on the sticker always been present from the beginning on black can Sport Tuned motors?

So I see the new silver Sport Tuned lacks a rotation direction arrow. This is good news for twin motor truck (Clod-style anyway) owners needing a slight performance boost.

I don't think I've ever seen Sport Tuned with an arrow.  Black motor has an arrow. 

My Goodness, it just dawned on me, that is a great point you brought up.  Black motor probably was the 27t motor with advanced timing.  It had current draw of only 7.7A.  That makes sense for thinner wires of 27 turn rotor.  Sport Tuned was 23T, and its thicker wires drew 12A.  It makes sense now. 

Sport Tuned was 23t, Black Motor was 27T with advanced timing!!  (Blue 'Endurance' had less timing)     

(Oh, and I should have been clear about "23T wrap."  I would have expected just "23T" or "23 wrap."  Not "23T wrap."  Because "T" and "wrap" mean the same thing, "xxTurn wrap" is saying the same thing twice)

 

[Superluminal 1544]

Someone needs to take one for the team and cut it open

[Saito2 2810]

31 minutes ago, Juggular said:

I don't think I've ever seen Sport Tuned with an arrow.

All the Sport Tuned motors I have have a rotation direction arrow like the one you pictured.

[Juggular 3432]

4 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

All the Sport Tuned motors I have have a rotation direction arrow like the one you pictured.

I can't believe that I didn't even notice!   

Does that mean it has (had) some timing?  

As you noted, the new one doesn't have any arrow.  

 

[Pablo68 575]

The original drive shafts in the Monster Beetle.

There are a few people out there who actually had few to no problems with them.

I however contended and still do that they are the spawn of Satan himself.

[Mad Ax 3010]

I had no end of durability problems with my OG Mud Blaster but gearbox and driveshaft were not among them.  I hazard the people who had issues either had better batteries, better motors or higher-traction surfaces than I had back in the mid 90s.  I certainly wasn't kind to my truck.

[Saito2 2810]

On 11/4/2019 at 6:11 AM, Pablo68 said:

The original drive shafts in the Monster Beetle.

There are a few people out there who actually had few to no problems with them.

I however contended and still do that they are the spawn of Satan himself.

I'm one of the lucky ones concerning driveshafts (and honestly even diffs). Considering how much hate they got over the years and that Tamiya's US importer, MRC, even started putting in a spare pair in later Mud Blaster kits certainly is enough proof for me.