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Alexei

what brushless motor would be equivalent to my brush motor?

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i have been toying with the idea of changing my old electronics in my 4WD drift car for something fresh and more up to date. it has a Team Orion 19x2 brushed motor installed and i like the power it has, so the goal isnt more power, but a more efficient system. what i dont like is how the ESC and motor gets warm, and loses power as the batteri runs lower on electricity (is a nimh type).

i have no idea how to compare brushed to brushless, and need some help. what brushless motor would have similar power to a 19x2 brushed motor? it is not for competition, just for a fun drift car.

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I don't know what a 19x2  would be equivalent to but this may be useful.

Silvercan stock classes got replaced by 21.5T onroad and 17.5T offroad.  These are also blinky classes so they have no turbo or boost from the ESC.

Superstock which was 23T got replaced by 13.5T, again in blinky.

Mod is still open, and in offroad people tend to run around 6.5T brushless compared to 10T - 13T brushed, and onroad they can go as low as 4.5T.

Around 8.5T - 10.5T would probably be about the same at a guess.  The good thing about a sensored brushless setup is you can program the ESC if the car feels too slow.  Also make sure the ESC has decent specs, look for something like the SkyRC TS120 as a minimum which is 120amp and can handle low turn motors with turbo and boost, or go for the name brands race spec ESC which tend to be 160amp plus.

Then you will need to look at your batteries to make the most of the setup.  A NiMH won't be able to deliver the power, so look for a lipo for racing, usually claiming 100C or more discharge rates.  I've run a 13.5T with mild ESC settings and on NiMH it was slow.  Switching to a decent lipo made a massive difference.

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Maybe between 13.5t and 10.5t?    

It's a wild shot in the dark.  I've seen a comparison of 15.5t motors.  Same turn motors, but 6-8 different brands.  Off the top of my head, dyno showed anywhere from 2000kv to 3000kv.  That's a lot of variation.  Even among brushed motors, both Sport Tuned and Super Stock are 23t motors.  But one has 18,000 rpm, and the other 27,000 rpm.  Considering Super Stock is unusually fast for a 23t motor, and the fact that Orion 19x2 is old, I'd guess they are about the same.  Of course, it depends on the strength of magnets, how tightly wire is wound, bearings, etc.  13.5t is similar to Super Stock, meaning, my guess is that 19x2 is similar to 13.5t. (again, there would be a big variation among 13.5t motors)  

[1]  Slightly inexpensive option: TBLE-02S costs about $25 USD.  13.5t motor would be about $40.  Total of $65.  Even if 13.5t is less than 19x2, you can go a tooth up on the pinion because of the extra torque.  But 13.5t is the limit of TBLE-02S.  

[2]  Because of that limit, you may as well spend $15 more and get something like Hobbywing Quicrun 10BL120 ESC ($40 USD), and a 10.5t motor ($40).  Even if the brand you chose happens to be the low end of 10.5t motors, it'd be still faster than 19x2.  You can also add a tooth on the pinion to utilize the extra torque.  

However, without LiPo, you can't really supply the power it needs.  NiMH can do about 1-2A in acceleration. The voltage can drop down to 5v.  LiPo can do 3-4A, and the voltage only drops to 6v in hard acceleration.  More amp and higher voltage can benefit brushed motors too, but brushless can really use it.  

 

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14 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

I don't know what a 19x2  would be equivalent to but this may be useful.

Silvercan stock classes got replaced by 21.5T onroad and 17.5T offroad.  These are also blinky classes so they have no turbo or boost from the ESC.

Superstock which was 23T got replaced by 13.5T, again in blinky.

Mod is still open, and in offroad people tend to run around 6.5T brushless compared to 10T - 13T brushed, and onroad they can go as low as 4.5T.

Around 8.5T - 10.5T would probably be about the same at a guess.  The good thing about a sensored brushless setup is you can program the ESC if the car feels too slow.  Also make sure the ESC has decent specs, look for something like the SkyRC TS120 as a minimum which is 120amp and can handle low turn motors with turbo and boost, or go for the name brands race spec ESC which tend to be 160amp plus.

Then you will need to look at your batteries to make the most of the setup.  A NiMH won't be able to deliver the power, so look for a lipo for racing, usually claiming 100C or more discharge rates.  I've run a 13.5T with mild ESC settings and on NiMH it was slow.  Switching to a decent lipo made a massive difference.

of course batteri will be changed to lipo, its just that until now i thought a 19x2 brushed motor would be similar to a 19t brushless. the guys on the drift track runs 10.5t brushless and i they look to have more power than my 19x2 brushed motor.

13 hours ago, Juggular said:

Maybe between 13.5t and 10.5t?    

It's a wild shot in the dark.  I've seen a comparison of 15.5t motors.  Same turn motors, but 6-8 different brands.  Off the top of my head, dyno showed anywhere from 2000kv to 3000kv.  That's a lot of variation.  Even among brushed motors, both Sport Tuned and Super Stock are 23t motors.  But one has 18,000 rpm, and the other 27,000 rpm.  Considering Super Stock is unusually fast for a 23t motor, and the fact that Orion 19x2 is old, I'd guess they are about the same.  Of course, it depends on the strength of magnets, how tightly wire is wound, bearings, etc.  13.5t is similar to Super Stock, meaning, my guess is that 19x2 is similar to 13.5t. (again, there would be a big variation among 13.5t motors)  

[1]  Slightly inexpensive option: TBLE-02S costs about $25 USD.  13.5t motor would be about $40.  Total of $65.  Even if 13.5t is less than 19x2, you can go a tooth up on the pinion because of the extra torque.  But 13.5t is the limit of TBLE-02S.  

[2]  Because of that limit, you may as well spend $15 more and get something like Hobbywing Quicrun 10BL120 ESC ($40 USD), and a 10.5t motor ($40).  Even if the brand you chose happens to be the low end of 10.5t motors, it'd be still faster than 19x2.  You can also add a tooth on the pinion to utilize the extra torque.  

However, without LiPo, you can't really supply the power it needs.  NiMH can do about 1-2A in acceleration. The voltage can drop down to 5v.  LiPo can do 3-4A, and the voltage only drops to 6v in hard acceleration.  More amp and higher voltage can benefit brushed motors too, but brushless can really use it.  

 

i will take a look at your suggestions, but preferredly i would buy the electronics at the local hobby shop. im not sure that they have all the brands, like Hobbywing. but Tamiya for sure they have, but that will be another place

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A "sport" 10.5, like a Hobbywing Quicrun, would probably make you very happy. Think of it like a big, happy V-8 in a station wagon. No stress, plenty of power but not extreme, and easy to drive.

A race-type 10.5, like any of those $150 motors, would be like taking that same V-8 and hot rodding it. Big cam, big heads, big carb, high compression, you know. It's way faster, can get away from you, and costs a lot more. It needs better fuel, too, so get some high-C batteries, too.

"Sport" 17.5 motors are like the little four in a commuter car. Dogs, but dead reliable. They serve their purpose and definitely fill an important hole.

Race 17.5s are like the hot hatch turbo fours. They're highly stressed and need to be really pushed to get good speed. They cost as much as the big race V-8, but aren't as fast, are harder to drive fast, and don't last as long. They still need that good fuel.

Really tough to pick a brushless equivalent to a used brush motor. I really like sport 13.5s a lot. They're cheap, have plenty of muscle that gives me nice controllable speed, can handle 3s if I want to go really fast, work well in on-road, 2WD, 4WD, racier vintage cars, even lighter trail trucks. Four-pole motors are just too strong for my taste in anything other than trail/crawlers, monster trucks, and 4WD SCT.

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12 hours ago, Alexei said:

the guys on the drift track runs 10.5t brushless and i they look to have more power than my 19x2 brushed motor.

If they are running lipo, and you're nimh, they'll be around 20% quicker even with the same motor set up.

I'm guessing you'll need good responce from your motor, so you'll be looking at a sensored set up. If you go for a 13.5t motor, and you need a bit more, you can give it a bit of timing. A stock 13.5t is around 3000-3500kv , which can be raised to around 5000kv with a good dollop of timing (and everything inbetween, it's a dark art though 🤯

Again, if you find it a bit quick you can (depending on your radio) always just drop the end point, having some extra oomph at your disposal if required.

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On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 6:27 AM, Big Jon said:

A "sport" 10.5, like a Hobbywing Quicrun, would probably make you very happy. Think of it like a big, happy V-8 in a station wagon. No stress, plenty of power but not extreme, and easy to drive.

A race-type 10.5, like any of those $150 motors, would be like taking that same V-8 and hot rodding it. Big cam, big heads, big carb, high compression, you know. It's way faster, can get away from you, and costs a lot more. It needs better fuel, too, so get some high-C batteries, too.

"Sport" 17.5 motors are like the little four in a commuter car. Dogs, but dead reliable. They serve their purpose and definitely fill an important hole.

Race 17.5s are like the hot hatch turbo fours. They're highly stressed and need to be really pushed to get good speed. They cost as much as the big race V-8, but aren't as fast, are harder to drive fast, and don't last as long. They still need that good fuel.

Really tough to pick a brushless equivalent to a used brush motor. I really like sport 13.5s a lot. They're cheap, have plenty of muscle that gives me nice controllable speed, can handle 3s if I want to go really fast, work well in on-road, 2WD, 4WD, racier vintage cars, even lighter trail trucks. Four-pole motors are just too strong for my taste in anything other than trail/crawlers, monster trucks, and 4WD SCT.

ok, i think i have it narrowed down to something like 10.5T or 13.5T

 

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 9:00 AM, Wooders28 said:

If they are running lipo, and you're nimh, they'll be around 20% quicker even with the same motor set up.

I'm guessing you'll need good responce from your motor, so you'll be looking at a sensored set up. If you go for a 13.5t motor, and you need a bit more, you can give it a bit of timing. A stock 13.5t is around 3000-3500kv , which can be raised to around 5000kv with a good dollop of timing (and everything inbetween, it's a dark art though 🤯

Again, if you find it a bit quick you can (depending on your radio) always just drop the end point, having some extra oomph at your disposal if required.

yea i have heard that changing batteri from nimh to lipo will give the same motor more power. just didnt know it was that much. i have no idea about timing and setup, the guys at the drift track can probably help with stuff like that.

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1 hour ago, Alexei said:

yea i have heard that changing batteri from nimh to lipo will give the same motor more power. just didnt know it was that much.

I grabbed this from somewhere (can't remember where, if it was someone here, cheers!)

Lipo give a volt more, (17% more power?) and hold the extra power for longer, they also can a provide higher discharge amps (so I added a few % 🙄

 

2019-11-13_06-22-57

 

1 hour ago, Alexei said:

i have no idea about timing and setup

This is my understanding-

A motor works by energizing a coil, which produces an electro magnet, the solid magnet on the motor shaft (armature) is attracted to it, so turns. When its almost at the coil, the coil switches off, and the next coil is energized, so the cycle continues.

Now, when no timing is used, or running a sensorless system, once the rpm reaches 'X' amount, let's say, 20,000rpm (2700kv on 2s (2700 x 7.4) ), the magnet catches the coils, so can't go any quicker.

So, if at that point you start to fire the coils earlier, the magnets won't catch the energized coil, so the rpm will rise, and keep rising the more timing is added.

The dark art is predicting when to start to add timing, how much and how quickly. This is all dependant on how quickly the motor accelerates - so gear ratio, car weight, surface etc all plays a part. Add too much timing to soon and too quickly, won't give much in the performance front, and mostly just produce heat.

An interesting (well, I think so....🙄) vid, 

 

 

 

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