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Juggular

New tires on the rear?

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While I was having our 1:1 Subaru's battery checked, I saw a poster from Michelin tires: "Put New Tires on the Rear."  It made sense.  Understeer is easier to correct than over-steering and spinning out.  If you are getting just 2 new tires, use the new ones to control the tail. (especially for FWD cars)  

Does that mean we should do it the same way?  RWD M06 came with 2 "Super-grip" and 2 "M grip" tires.  The instruction manual called for the rear wheels getting the super-grips, and the front wheels getting the Medium-grip tires.  I assumed this was because driving wheels would benefit from stickier tires.  Now I'm thinking it has less to do with driving force, but more to do with reducing the oversteer.  

Now, the question is for yet-unbuilt FWD M-07.  (Before it got cold and wet I started on the shell first)

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Because I have a bunch of longer-lasting regular grip tires, I was going to get just one pair of Super-grip, and install them on the front. (Didn't get them yet)  I realize that it's easy enough to experiment once M07 is built.  But it's getting cold, so it might be a while.  So... for those who are experienced with on-road cars... do you think FWD M-07 should have stickier tires on the rear?  

 

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I'm not an expert but I would personally go for sticky tyres on the rear.  As you say, it's easier to control understeer than oversteer.  I'm not sure of the M07 suffers from the same grip roll problem as the M03 and M05, but at the race club we glue the outer sidewall and about 4mm of the outer shoulder on our Sweep Racing carpet tyres.  This helps to stop the cars from barrel-rolling as we lean into corners.

Unless you're on a low-grip surface, I'd think the extra grip from super sticky tyres would make the grip roll worse, and having less grip in the rear will make the car unbalanced and want to oversteer.  That said, I think the proof will be when it hits the road - a sticky rear and slippy front might make for some epic power-on wheelspins coming out of corners and a really fun FWD driving experience, or it might just be a frustrating drive trying to finesse the throttle around the understeer.

A long while ago I tried to make an FF01 drift car.  Well, I fitted drift tyres to my FF01, anyway.  With drift tyres all round it wouldn't go anywhere.  It wouldn't accelerate and once it did get some speed, it wouldn't turn.  When it did turn, it would slide sideways and crash.  With drift tyres on the front and old hard rubber on the rear, it just understeered everywhere.  It took a while to get any speed up, and then it would just push on in a straight line at the corners.  It wasn't really driveable.  With hard rubber up front and drift tyres on the back, it was impossible.  I had hoped it would accelerate well and then give some real big controllable slides in the bends, but the fact was I never got as far as the bends.  Once it got over a walking pace it would swap ends, without any notable steering input or bend.  It might have been something to do with torque steer or bump steer, but without rear grip to keep the chassis in line it would immediately flip around.  It wasn't even slightly controllable.

I also remember racing my M03 when the rear left suspension jammed at full compression.  Our setup didn't have a lot of travel anyway (better to have a car that bounces on its bumpstops and drifts wide due to insufficient travel than flips over and goes off the track due to excess travel), so it wasn't immediately obvious by looking, but as soon as the car got to a bend it would swap ends.  I think we often don't appreciate just how much work the suspension does on these little cars, even on smooth carpet tracks.

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6 hours ago, Juggular said:

"Put New Tires on the Rear."  It made sense.  Understeer is easier to correct than over-steering and spinning out.  If you are getting just 2 new tires, use the new ones to control the tail. (especially for FWD cars)  

Also,In fwd the fronts do all the work ,so wear quicker, the rears are just there for the ride. Its an MOT failure (uk) if the tyres have cracked side walls, even if the tread is ok, and talks of it being a failure if they are more than 5yrs old. Throw rears on the front and burn them up.

I'm guessing it's different for rwd ,mainly as they usually don't have the same size rubber on all corners! (And of course, the rears burden some of the work)

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As for the M-07 question, I have one of those, as well as an M-05 and M-03, and all of them seem to be a lot more controllable with S-grips at the back and M-grips at the front. I have tried the other way round, and swapped straight back again as the car was significantly more difficult to control.

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Interesting, I just got 2 new tyres on my wifes car and they put them on the front. FWD, Mitsubishi Mirage, so no real issues with traction or understeer/oversteer since it can't go fast enough to get a speeding ticket.

My only experience with this on RC cars is my F1 and over here its definitely sticky rears and hard fronts to control oversteer. Overseas it seems to be different but they run on high grip carpet and use tyre additive so that will mean physics doesn't apply.

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Thank you.  I'm starting to get a sense of it.  When M07 is built, I'll experiment.  It might be a while. I saw snow flurry this afternoon. (leaves only started to fall)  I'll keep your experiences in mind.  It makes me wonder why I haven't known about this for all these years!?  (but then again, this is my first foray into on-road territory since 1985. Blackfoot tires made out of different compounds wouldn't make much difference on sand)  

 

I had look up MOT.  It's Ministry of Transport?  That makes sense.  In the states, it's mostly "DMV," Department of Motor Vehicles.  I never thought about it, but suddenly "department" sounds very strange.  Each state calls it by a different name.  VSD is vehicle service department, BMV for Bureau of motor vehicle, etc.  I'm sure no state would call it "Vehicle Division" or "State Transportation Department."  

 

The old battery in 1:1 was showing 300 cold cranking amp (it was 600 cca when it was new).  I need to get that replaced.  Tires on 1:1 are about 5 years old, and they started to show small cracks.  I have to be vigilant about rotating them because I can't replace just 2 tires on AWD.  I think they are fine for now. But small cracks is a failure in UK?  If I lived in UK, I suppose I'd put tire reconditioning stuff on them every year to prevent cracks.  Come to think if it, I'll get a bottle of tire conditioner now.  At least I could prevent them from becoming worse.  Thanks for mentioning that.  

I used to put 2 new tires on the front too, when I was driving FWD Toyota Tercel (Corsa).  Considering how I was in Oregon, where roads are always wet, I wonder if I should have put the new ones on the rear.  But braking could have been a problem.  1991 Toyota Tercel had really weak drum brakes on the rear (which probably has not been used on passenger cars for about 25 years).  I am sure the front disc brakes did 99.999% of the work.  On straight local roads, driving under 60km/h, the front getting new tires made a better sense.  For M07, which will do a lot more hard turning than real cars, I'll start with sticky rear.  

 

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1 hour ago, Juggular said:

I had look up MOT.  It's Ministry of Transport?

It is, it's a yearly vehicle check in the UK, that ,by law has to be carried out by verified test garage, getting more strict every year (emissions are set by vehicle year of manufacture).

I don't need to worry, I've had my golf a year, and it's already had a full new set of boots, and now the fronts are almost on the wear bars....🙄😏

RC wise, I'm around 10 -1 rears to fronts on my 2wd Laydown, mainly as the fronts don't actually need alot of tread to still do their job, it's the rears that do the work.

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1 hour ago, Juggular said:

I had look up MOT.  It's Ministry of Transport?  That makes sense.  In the states, it's mostly "DMV," Department of Motor Vehicles.  I never thought about it, but suddenly "department" sounds very strange.  Each state calls it by a different name.  VSD is vehicle service department, BMV for Bureau of motor vehicle, etc.  I'm sure no state would call it "Vehicle Division" or "State Transportation Department."  

I presume Cheltenham isnt the one in the UK then?

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first great choice on body :D
 

With M07 you won’t have to worry much about oversteer as it’s FWD. if you we’re running M06/M08 would be a different conversation.

In the world of RC, weight transfer is far more important than your choice of tyres. If you have the weight transfer set up correctly, almost any tyre will work!

Also the S grips work even better when they are worn ;)

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I wish I grabbed M08 when it was on ebay few weeks back. M08 seems better balanced than M06.  But having bought M05 Rally + M07 in 2 weeks, I was already over my allowance. I didn't dare bringing M08 up. (to my wife, they all look the same)  At least, I ordered some S-grip tires without going through her.  I'm glad to know that they work well.  

Pennsylvania has yearly inspection at designated state inspection garages too.  We drive so little, the cracks appearing on the tires is more of a concern than treads.  How do you even wear down a new set of tires in 1 year?  Aren't they suppose to last like 60,000 miles?  

I can't say the naming convention is really clever on this side of the pond.  "New"-everything.  Like "new" York, "new" Jersey, "new" Hampshire.  I suppose "new" Cheltenham was too long.  So, there are towns without "new."  Like Lancaster, Somerset, Mansfield, etc.  There is even "old" York road in Cheltenham (Pennsylvania).  

NmhJpmd.jpg

 

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10 hours ago, Juggular said:

How do you even wear down a new set of tires in 1 year?  Aren't they suppose to last like 60,000 miles?  

Urm, less than a year, I changed the while set ,as every corner had a different brand and the handling was all over the place. Ive never had any tyre last anywhere near 60k miles, 15k tops, but I don't nurse it. Just ordered a full set of winters, it's a 600mile round trip to see my family over Christmas, and can be a bit, interesting, on summer tyres in the snow,(although they're rainsports, so not as bad as some).

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16 hours ago, Juggular said:

I can't say the naming convention is really clever on this side of the pond.  "New"-everything.  Like "new" York, "new" Jersey, "new" Hampshire.  I suppose "new" Cheltenham was too long.  So, there are towns without "new."  Like Lancaster, Somerset, Mansfield, etc.  There is even "old" York road in Cheltenham (Pennsylvania).  

Spent 12 days in New England last year. Manchester, Sheffield to name but a few!!!

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19 hours ago, Juggular said:

How do you even wear down a new set of tires in 1 year?  Aren't they suppose to last like 60,000 miles?  

I used to get 20,000km (yes, km, you know that metric system that is so logical that other parts of the world use?) on my 'toy' cars like my WRX, VR4 and FXGT track toy but they were also reasonably cheap, as in $200 a corner. I was terrified on my current car as it came on Pirelli P Zeros which are $500 a corner, but they lasted 50,000km. The replacement Bridgestones are supposed to last the same, so it really does appear that yoy get what you pay for.

I know taxi drivers who get 100,000km though, but they buy tyres specifically to last a long time

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9 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

Ive never had any tyre last anywhere near 60k miles, 15k tops,

I'm starting to think English roads are made out of sandpapers, designed to grind tires to dust...  (I meant "roads in UK."  Not English-speaking roads, just to be sure)

 

48 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

reasonably cheap, as in $200 a corner.

I spent about that for Michelin Defenders.  I thought that was expensive (but I'm a cheap guy, everything is expensive!). 

Defenders are supposed to last 90,000 miles (I mean 144,000 km. I wonder if these are what taxi drivers buy).  But we've only driven 25,000 miles in 6 years, and small cracks are appearing!  Still plenty of tread left, I guess we'll drive 15 more years...

(I'm kidding, I'll replace them before they become as hard as these Tamiya tires)  

bBiPtj3.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, Juggular said:

(I'm kidding, I'll replace them before they become as hard as these Tamiya tires)  

bBiPtj3.jpg

 

I've got loads of those spare. Pity they dont fit 1:1 as I reckon I'd get to the moon and back there so hard!!!!!

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