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Tamiyold

Top Force vs TT-02B for indoor racing

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Yeah, I just re-checked the Top Force manual. It says "fully screw in with box wrench" on the SB8 adjustment bolt. I've noticed many times over the years, Tamiya can be a bit vague on ball diff adjustment. At best, they tell to put to objects like hex wrenches in the outdrive slots and then tighten the diff until you can't turn the diff gear with your fingers. For somebody with stupid strong thread stripping hands like mine, I always am left wondering. BTW IIRC, part of the spline stripping issue with the ball diffs is the spline section is shorter than the comparable gear diff.

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Thanks @Saito2 @StueyS @matisse,I initially had the SB8 bolt tightened right down after reading advice on this forum but when the spline stripped the first time I loosened it off but it slipped too much, so I tightened it a bit more until I could barely turn the gear while holding the drive cups (I don't have stupid strong thread ripping hands!), I also tried the Tamiya thread lock on the splines but that didn't work cos it stripped again. Once I have the replacement pressure plates I'll tighten the bolt down fully and try properly gluing the drives in, I'm considering using some contact adhesive.

I have considered giving up on the Top Force for racing but also I really want to make it work against the more modern machines at the club.

Hopefully as my driving improves and I crash less the breakages will get less too!

 

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@Jonathon Gillham I have seen a thread about the slipper pinion but didn't investigate further. That could be plan B if the splines keep stripping. A lot of the club members work for an F1 team and one suggested he might be able to get pressure plates made up! Maybe I'll see what he can arrange :D

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1 hour ago, Tamiyold said:

(I don't have stupid strong thread ripping hands!),

Yeah, my wife hates when I over tighten lids and caps on jars and such. If you could get custom alloy pressure plates made up that would be ideal. I believe Tamiyaclub member @kontemax had some made up for the Madcap/Astute/King Cab diff as the stock ones would deform when tightened down. I'm curious what Top Force racers did back in the day if they experienced this issue. Perhaps today's more potent motors are simply the cause.

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1 hour ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

You can buy a slipper pinion, never used one or even seen one, other than pictures, but that could be what you need?

Cariama M40 is 0.6mod and is the slipper pinion that works from what I can find 

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Thought I would post a pic of the TF, it's mostly standard apart from the rear tower brace, hi caps and an alloy front lower gearbox cover. I'm running a Speed Passion 8.5T with a Hobbywing Quicrun 10BL120 ESC, still on nimh batteries for now.

As funds allow I'd like to upgrade the shock towers to evo style and go to lipo power but if bits keep breaking they will have to wait!

 

IMG_20200223_112200263.jpg

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4 hours ago, Tamiyold said:

Thought I would post a pic of the TF, it's mostly standard apart from the rear tower brace, hi caps and an alloy front lower gearbox cover. I'm running a Speed Passion 8.5T with a Hobbywing Quicrun 10BL120 ESC, still on nimh batteries for now.

As funds allow I'd like to upgrade the shock towers to evo style and go to lipo power but if bits keep breaking they will have to wait!

 

IMG_20200223_112200263.jpg

What gearing are you running? 8.5t might be a tad powerful perhaps?

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@Tamiyold How do you find the ride height for indoor racing? Mine looks very similar to yours and I'm sure its too high forhigh grip but need to work out how to shorten the front shocks to lower it (I know its easy, I just build always shocks to kit specs so would need to mvoe spacers around).

If you drop to a 17.5T motor but up your gearing (do you have the TA02 high speed gearset to allow FDR around 5?) would you have the same problem? In blinky classes there isn't a massive difference in lap times between the high and low turn motors so it may work?

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@matisse, I'm running the kit 74t spur with a 21t pinion as it was the nearest I could get to the FDR recommended in the motor manual (6.5 - 8) without the high speed gear set. I have tried to get the gear set but decided I didn't need it that badly to pay the postage!

@Jonathon Gillham, The ride height doesn't seem to bad (to me) I have the shocks in the kit positions, AE 70wt oil in both with one hole pistons in the front and two in the back. It handles jumps pretty well as long as I hit them straight on and don't instinctively hit the brake in mid air! Following advice from fellow racers I have moved the steering tie rods to the inner holes on the steering knuckles to get more steering on the slow tight corners. I was running a 19T brushed motor previously and really struggled to keep it cool, it got so hot the brushes were cooked, the brushless motor only gets warm.

I could check out the lower power speed passions and give them a go, maybe they won't destroy diffs so much! One positive thing I can report is my gearbox covers have stayed put while running the brushless motor.

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49 minutes ago, Tamiyold said:

@matisse, I'm running the kit 74t spur with a 21t pinion as it was the nearest I could get to the FDR recommended in the motor manual (6.5 - 8) without the high speed gear set. I have tried to get the gear set but decided I didn't need it that badly to pay the postage!

@Jonathon Gillham, The ride height doesn't seem to bad (to me) I have the shocks in the kit positions, AE 70wt oil in both with one hole pistons in the front and two in the back. It handles jumps pretty well as long as I hit them straight on and don't instinctively hit the brake in mid air! Following advice from fellow racers I have moved the steering tie rods to the inner holes on the steering knuckles to get more steering on the slow tight corners. I was running a 19T brushed motor previously and really struggled to keep it cool, it got so hot the brushes were cooked, the brushless motor only gets warm.

I could check out the lower power speed passions and give them a go, maybe they won't destroy diffs so much! One positive thing I can report is my gearbox covers have stayed put while running the brushless motor.

Sounds like you'd be giving away a lot of speed to the others then if you can't adjust your gearing.  Maybe drop to a 10.5T or 13.5T and see, but still, you'll be slower.  I was the same re: the high speed gearset.  I had to order it separately I think so it was a very expensive part (still like NZD$20 so not the end of the world, but expensive for what it is).  Its also hard to find now.

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Yeah, sounds like dropping the FDR might help, that or throttle curve on the esc.

i got the speed tuned gear set from Tamico, postage doubles the price.

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Very cool project,

thumbs up that you try to keep up with your TF!

For the spline problems, I only can say you are sabotized by Tamiya!:lol:

Thes outdrives are nowadays so bad from the tolerances, that you cannot compare it to the same parts in the 90´s qualitywise. I bought a Jägermeister TA 02SW Porsche when it was released, and equipped it with a Carson Cup machine. Already on the second battery, I lost the rear axle drive running FWD, as one of the outdrives failed. So I refurbished and glued the outdrives in with Loctite 648, which is really strong. Super glue needs a lot of care to not get into the ball bearings. Back in the day it was enough to secure them with a drop of rubber glue or sth.. I´m planning the Resto of my Top Force Evo at the moment and try to relocate the good parts, which went to my onroad cars back in the day. Luckily I found the Special "Evo diffs", which have super light Aluminum pressure plates, that are also much better with fit to the outdrive. I never broke these, running quite strong brushed motors in my Evo back then. Maybe you can still find some of the good aluminum parts for the ball diffs. If I rember correctly, they were also used in the TA03 TRF versions. Otherwise, glue them in as best as you can.

All the best for the project, would be really sad, if you give up the challenge before the real end of potential is reached on your TF!

Buggy greets,

Matthias

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@ruebiracer thanks for the words of encouragement! It is frustrating how fragile some of the TF parts can be once they experience a brushless motor, I seem to have at least one DNF most race meetings! Those pressure plates were offered in 2006 so I'm not sure they'll still be available, I'll ask!

@matisse I finally managed to find a speed tuned gear set in the UK and ordered it, the delivery charge was almost 50% the cost of the item but I decided I should go for it, am I right in thinking that this gear set will reduce the torque going through the drive train and hopefully make things a little easier for the diffs? By my reckoning you need less torque to go fast than you need to accelerate quickly. Unfortunately my radio is pretty basic (Absima CR2s) and doesn't allow for setting throttle curve or steering incremental etc. 

Thanks for everyone's input, I'll update the thread with my successes and failures!

Mark

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1 hour ago, Tamiyold said:

@ruebiracer thanks for the words of encouragement! It is frustrating how fragile some of the TF parts can be once they experience a brushless motor, I seem to have at least one DNF most race meetings! Those pressure plates were offered in 2006 so I'm not sure they'll still be available, I'll ask!

Guess it´s too hard to find some nowadays, or too expensive. But if you take new parts, and glue them with new bearings and some quality glue, these should be able to take the punishment. Unfortunately, the Carisma slipper pinion is only available in 20T, but I´m quite happy with it. Fitted one in my Vanquish (sfter seeing it here on TC in a Top Force) as "insurance" for my drivetrain, switching to 13,5t sensored brushless motor. It´s no real slipper clutch, as the surfaces are small and you cannot get away the heat so well a s a real slipper, but it can for sure eliminate the excessive torques from jumps, crashes and so on. If you should find a suitable ratio with your new setup and 20T, this could be an option to fight "DNF" further… 

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Purely speculating here...but I wonder if running the slipper pinion would protect the gears enough to go back to the standard gear diff? If the rear gearcase top cover was secured with all the usual tricks to prevent gear skipping in addition to the slipper pinion and maybe a rear gear diff packed with thicker grease...I don't know, might work. IIRC the gear diffs have longer spline sections and one would assume greater strength in this area.

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Had an reasonable race night yesterday with fairly consistent laps, ran with the 69T spur and 21T pinion,  got pole and won my final too (C final so I'm not celebrating too much!) I thought I had got away without any breakages or stripped diff splines but when the final was over I noticed the front end was at a strange angle, on closer inspection I found the reason, anyone done this before:

347432801_IMG_20200229_112647290(2).thumb.jpg.b3a43a43e7a6dca38604ebdc4f146e13.jpg

I have ordered a new gear box and Astute alloy support to replace J12 plus 22T & 23T pinions. There are some at the club who say the car doesn't help my results, I'm usually at least 5 laps off the A finalists. I just wonder if it's mainly my driving that needs to improve.

Mark

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Wow. I've never seen a front gear case crack go so far. I've seen the beginnings of such damage on a DF01 upon various teardowns over the years. Normally the cracks emanate from the four screws that hold the lower cover into the gear case bottom. Its too thin/vulnerable in this area to begin with for PC construction. The added stress of the lower cover doubling as the front lower suspension arm mount only makes things worse. Yours appears to have actually split alongside the left rear screw boss. Tamiya ties everything from the front suspension onto the front gear case in some manner making it a removable sub-assembly. There's alot of stresses working on it. Matters aren't helped by the fact the whole sub-assembly is just tacked on the end of the chassis plate rather than deriving any support from it. That's a tough situation. Barring too many crashes and such, you may be simply up a against limitations of the buggy's design/materials used at this point. Interested to hear what others say and how you get on. I appreciate your determination.

P.S. I've never been a fan of the TT02B with its low ground clearance and rear gear stripping issues but I'm beginning to question if its overall design might not be more robust. Then again it might not. I have little first hand knowledge of it.

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6 hours ago, Tamiyold said:

I have ordered a new gear box and Astute alloy support to replace J12 plus 22T & 23T pinions. There are some at the club who say the car doesn't help my results, I'm usually at least 5 laps off the A finalists. I just wonder if it's mainly my driving that needs to improve.

Mark

I take it you're not running a vintage class and you're up against modern race kits? If thats the case then the car will be holding you back. I gained 2sec a lap (45ish sec laps) when switching from a Lazer ZX6 to a HB D418, swapping the electronics from thr Lazer to the HB. The Lazer was better suited to carpet, the HB to dirt, and I ran on dirt. Also, the Lazer was a 5 year old design compared to a brand new design. I don't think you'd get the Top Force to the A Main, it will be limiting you.

Theres obvious things like the materials have improved which will sort out the reliability, but also tracks have changed and the Top Force was designed for tracks 30 years ago, not modern indoor tracks with more grip and higher speeds.

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I'm just in with everyone else, up against things like Schumacher Cougars, RC10 B6, PR S1 etc. Once I get the other pinions I should be able to pretty much match them for straight line speed but I'll still struggle with low speed cornering and jumps aren't always successful! Of course some of that could be down to my set up.

One of the other members has lent me a spare 2WD Team C buggy to try out for a couple of weeks to see how I get on, I think if I want to get to the heady heights of the B final or higher I don't think the Top Force will cut it, no matter how much money I throw at it! If I'm still in the C final with the other buggy I think my driving needs more work :P

Mark

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3 hours ago, Tamiyold said:

I'm just in with everyone else, up against things like Schumacher Cougars, RC10 B6, PR S1 etc. Once I get the other pinions I should be able to pretty much match them for straight line speed but I'll still struggle with low speed cornering and jumps aren't always successful! Of course some of that could be down to my set up.

One of the other members has lent me a spare 2WD Team C buggy to try out for a couple of weeks to see how I get on, I think if I want to get to the heady heights of the B final or higher I don't think the Top Force will cut it, no matter how much money I throw at it! If I'm still in the C final with the other buggy I think my driving needs more work :P

Mark

Oh its always driving, but the right buggy will make a difference. We get about 15 4wd stock buggies at a typical meet, I went from 12th ish to 5th ish, which is also from B to A main. Far easier spending $800 on a new kit that actually practicing and improving! I'm hoping my B6D which replaced my Ultima RB6.6 will do the same. At a practice day the B6D was much easier to drive, so fingers crossed. Especially since I have 2 of them now...

My Top Force has been built for a vintage class that a new indoor club is running, so it should be competitive. The good thing is that everyone runs 23T super stock motors in mod as they realise the old cars (some old, some rere) aren't designed for modern power and lipos, so its all pretty tame. Still, the Super Stock goes really well, its plenty fast. But should be easier on the cars.

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I've been running a 7.5t brushless motor in my top force evolution for over a year, I'm running the sport tuned gear set. I did have issues with the diff unwinding, but then used a very worn one with harder grease. Not slipping now. Also the gear case breaking I've had this before when using the alloy front diff cover. It doesn't alloy any flex so the gearbox takes the brunt. Also change the softening values on the esc this can also act as a slipper system. If your running any boost or timing on a good esc you can delay this so its not instant. One more thing that helped me was when I upgraded my transmitter to a better quality one you can make more changes that help your driving style. Hope the info helps.

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Now I'm really torn, that's some good info. It would be great to do well with the Top Force, especially as I don't really have the funds to buy anything else without selling it which I'm not sure I want to do. I do have the alloy front gearbox bottom cover after breaking the plastic one. Which grease have you put in the ball diff @Turbotom? I've read of people using Tamiya AW grease in them. I have a gear diff in the front and I've got the AW grease in that. I imagine the gear case breaking may have been partly due to the cartwheeling down the straight...:wacko:

Unfortunately my ESC (Hobbywing Quicrun 10BL120) only has settings for drag brake and forward/reverse and I only have a basic radio that has very limited adjustment. I had wondered about trying to turn down punch (if that's what it's called now!) etc. but was disappointed to find I can't. I have considered upgrading to something like a Sanwa MT-S  or MX-6 and try to adjust things so throttle is applied a little more gradually. I think the speed tuned gear set should help things further by limiting the torque sent through the gearbox, the car wasn't bad with that at the last race meeting.

The TT02 is now up for sale on that well known auction site so I should have some cash soon to invest in the TF if I decide to stick with it.

Mark

 

 

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You can definitely turn down the punch and timing on the 10bl120. Have another read of the manual. If you are programming using the button, the thing that threw me is that option 5 is a long beep after the first four are short beeps for the number. It carries on after, so setting 6 is long beep short beep (5 + 1) and so on. I have it on 3 for indoor touring car racing to soften the throttle 

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