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Saito2

Explain this overpowered future to me...

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My King Blackfoot was pretty boring to drive until I put a 19X1 Reedy in it. Wheelies everywhere and a decent head of steam for a truck.

Then it really came alive when I put a 4000kV in it.

Was it too fast?... yes

Did it handle poorly?.... yes. Turning at most speeds resulted in a barrel roll.

Was it fun to drive?... damned straight it was.

The KBF has a decent gearbox and it never had any gearbox issues. 

Overpowering a chassis makes you learn a lot about throttle control and steering input. Very similar to driving an F103. 

I do tend to only push the power levels on chassis I have or can get spares for.

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Very neat thread going on here.  I can only speak from my own experience when it comes to modifying vintage Tamiya models with upgraded power.  I've satiated my curiosity with just how far one can push the limits of brushless/lipo etc in other more modern RC platforms and therefor had no desire to ruin a perfectly good vintage model (or classic re-re) by overpowering it.

I do however, recall my early memories of some RC cars and how otherworldly they seemed at top speed.  In the 80s, I used to watch friends race RCs in a paved parking garage.  It was only a few lucky kids who's parents could afford them, but I was always there to watch every time they met up.  A Falcon with Technipower motor, a gold pan RC 10 with a green and silver Reedy Modified motor.. and a Fox with a Technigold motor.  The smooth but dusty concrete meant that everyone spun tires at the start but eventually the Fox seemed to hit the highest top speed and pull past the others.  They would turn around and race back towards the starting line, same results.  

Of course years later and I've always wanted a Fox for that very reason, so I purchased a NovaFox.  Rather than keep it stock, ball races were of course included but I also picked up a 14T "Tamiya" brushless sensorless motor on sale at my LHS as well.  I use "Tamiya" in quotes because I'm almost certain Tamiya rebranded another product this time.. but whatever, I thought it was a modern-day equivalent of what the Technigold would have been anyway.  Call it a resto-mod if you will.

Much to my surprise, with that 14T motor and 2s lipo this thing flies.  It can pull the front wheels off the ground when stabbing the throttle at just the right moment and top speed gets to a point where planning ahead as to where to safely slow down becomes a concern.  I wasn't planning for such overkill, but I like it.  I only play with this one occasionally, as I need a much more open space to fully enjoy it.  Either way, that's my take as to why I decided to add a but more oomph to an otherwise stellar re-re.P_20181016_095457.thumb.jpg.40f6baca93a55a8142fee251d93348c0.jpg

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Fox is surprisingly high geared... even with 540 on big pinion it goes pretty quick in a large area :) for even more speed use a torquey motor like a 550 size can.

 

Overpowering RC isn't a new thing, kids were doing it BiTD. Kyosho LeMans, Trinity, Reedy etc made their fortunes selling hopup motors - I'd think they would've sold more motors to amateur punters & suburban court bashers than pro racers. ;) 

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7 hours ago, Saito2 said:

 

23 hours ago, The Twingo Lord said:

it’s for just sending it,

I've seen this phrase turn up from time to time. Could anyone enlighten me?  Where/how are these things being sent? I know, if you gotta ask, you're probably too old. 

lol... I was going to ask, but Saito always beats me to it.  Thanks for taking one for the team! (team Old Dudes)

 

 

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4 hours ago, Killajb said:

I also picked up a 14T "Tamiya" brushless sensorless motor on sale

(I can't edit...)

I see sensorless motors on ebay.  You got me curious...  TBLE02S is for sensored motors, so do you need a different ESC?  Or Tamiya has some trick up their sleeves, so TBLE02S can somehow run Tamiya's own sensorless motors?  

 

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52 minutes ago, Juggular said:

(I can't edit...)

I see sensorless motors on ebay.  You got me curious...  TBLE02S is for sensored motors, so do you need a different ESC?  Or Tamiya has some trick up their sleeves, so TBLE02S can somehow run Tamiya's own sensorless motors?  

 

Usually need different Esc's, (although some like the 10bl120 can run both), sensored esc's use feedback from the sensor to determine the motor position to fire the right coil (which is why they need to be wired right), where a sensorless uses feedback from the none powered coil (a magnet passing a coil creates a voltage) to have a good guess.

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1 hour ago, Juggular said:

lol... I was going to ask, but Saito always beats me to it.  Thanks for taking one for the team! (team Old Dudes)

 

 

Just to add: if any of you young'uns are tempted to try any foolishness with anything old/rare/interesting, you should definitely "send it"... to one of us. We'll treat it right.

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The horsepower of modern batteries and brushless enable cars that were once overweight or poorly geared or both, (super Astute) enable the chassis to be exercised to their max capabilities. 

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6 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Just to add: if any of you young'uns are tempted to try any foolishness with anything old/rare/interesting, you should definitely "send it"... to one of us. We'll treat it right.

Closest I would do would be with a rere, I wouldn’t want a vintage, I would mess it up

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It all comes down to what makes you happy. I have a mate with an original Kyosho Javelin. It has been modded to RWD only, has a brushless/lipo setup and is used for Speedway Racing. He is not the best driver, but has a badword of a time modding/repairing his car and at least getting involved. He was fortunate enough to get back into RC when the Javelin was re-released. It now has the 48pitch gearbox setup.

The car is crazy fast with 2.2" truck wheels and is a handful to drive.... but a tonne of fun. He's has so much fun he built another one. 

It if wasn't for the mods the car would have sat on the shelf. Not only does he enjoy wrenching and driving, but those who know him enjoy being part of his escapades and offering advice or torment as appropriate.

I wont tell you the words he say to me that day I told him "with all your crashing and repairs.... you must be the most experienced Javelin mechanic in the southern hemisphere"

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Had brushless and lipo technology been around in the 1980's who wouldn't have tried to make their Lunchbox or Boomerang etc as fast as possible? I know I would have. But I have less desire now and just enjoy seeing my Tamiyas driving around at a sensible speed... for now. 

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Is speed and power al that new though? Ok, 3S Lipos and brushless make silly high speeds a lot easier. But even back in the late 1990's you could pretty low turn brushed motors. I used to race with a 10x6 in a 2wd Losi buggy. And a 12 turn race brushed motor is still pretty potent. Also used to run a few 7 and 8 cell NiCd or NiMh packs back then. Biggest difference was run time. But you could still easily get in the 30-40mph range no problem, even without crazy tall gearing.

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8 hours ago, toyolien said:

I think what's new is that kind of speed but with 45 minutes of run time. 

This is the big one!!! Who remembers 4 min run times? And that was only with very expensive cells and careful fastidious balance charging. Now a cheapo 7.4v and a cheap plug and play balance charger can give you 45 minute run times with out over heating the motor. 

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48 minutes ago, GTodd said:

This is the big one!!! Who remembers 4 min run times? And that was only with very expensive cells and careful fastidious balance charging. Now a cheapo 7.4v and a cheap plug and play balance charger can give you 45 minute run times with out over heating the motor. 

I could never afford a mod motor to reduce my runtimes below about 9mins from a Sport Tuned. But thats the other thing, everything is cheap now so anyone can do it. A kid doing a paper round could buy a 5.5T Trackstar motor after a week or 2, and a 50C lipo the next week or 2 etc. That would've taken 6 months or more to save for something nowhere near as good.

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2 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

But thats the other thing, everything is cheap now so anyone can do it.

Absolutley! 

Although the higher end motors aren't that much different in price, you can get respectable ones fairly cheap, the batteries are real cheap, i saved for months to get a decent SCE saddle pack for my Mid, and it meant I could go up 2 teeth on the pinion 😂

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22 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Absolutley! 

Although the higher end motors aren't that much different in price, you can get respectable ones fairly cheap, the batteries are real cheap, i saved for months to get a decent SCE saddle pack for my Mid, and it meant I could go up 2 teeth on the pinion 😂

Yep! You'd have to be for real the best of the best fighting for 1/10 of a second advantage to spend for the best. 

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A friend of mine had a lunchbox with a silly fast brushless setup.  It was great fun on the beach where there was plenty of space.  It had oil shocks all round and the 5th shock mod, as well as a good size wheelie bar, but otherwise was stock.  Just very well built and set up.  That much power was too much for tight spaces (where the lunchie usually excels) but there was something deeply enjoyable about watching it take off on the beach and go way faster than anyone expected.  That's at least part of the joy.  I love an underdog, I love to be the underdog, and I loved having that handset when some other bashers got out their modern cars.  Sure, they'd win in the bends, but passing them on the straight was awesome.  But that wasn't a case of "let's see how quickly we can break it" - it was a case of "let's see how much we can push it before it gets unreliable."

I don't overpower my stuff much these days.  I did have a hot (2S) brushless system in a HotShot, in fact I didn't realise how fast it was until I entered it into the Iconic Revival in (iirc) 2015.  It was a TrackStar Turbo system, and the turbo setting was on.  Down the back straight it would pass everybody once it came on boost.  I didn't really understand the system when I installed it (TBH it was going spare and I needed something to race) - it was too fast and too hard to drive for an unskilled racer like me.  I replaced it with a Super Stock BZ which is much better-suited to the HotShot's handling.

Actually, that BZ was in a re-re Frog, and that was too much.  The Frog isn't a good handler, and a BZ doesn't help.  It was fun for a little while, but my attempts to improve the chassis (with limited tools and naff all suspension knowledge) only made things worse.  I retired that buggy "for another day" best part of a decade ago.

My Blitzer Beetle has an Acto Pink in it, and that's about as hot as I want it to be.  Wheelies off the throttle and sounds like Armageddon.  It's hard to drive with that much power, but keeping it in line at speed is part of the fun.  I certainly don't drive it to break it.  It's snapped an axle shaft and it's even spun the middle out of a stock wheel, but the body and chassis still look like new because I don't crash it.

I once tried to build a 14.4v WT-01.  It was overweight (12 NiMH cells anyone..?) and impossible to drive.  I did a lot of work on that rig before I broke it up and sold the parts.  Looking back, it didn't need much.  4S LiPo would have solved the weight problem, mods to the chassis rails could have improved handling.  I'll build another one day but I'll probably stick to silvercans and 3S.  I don't need that much power these days.  And TBH the RTRs have now got so insanely fast that no amount of wrenching on an old Tamiya is going to make them keep up on the straights.  Not even the underdog will come out on top.

I do worry about the latest big-speed RTRs, but I guess with that pricetag they're destined for people who know what they're doing.  And that's OK, each to their own.  I've watched a few "speed run" videos on Youtube and they often seem to originate in the USA and feature people testing them on public highways.  OK, some US roads are way quieter (and straighter) than ours, but even so, over 100mph from a modified RC is going to do some damage if it hits someone.  And, y'know, it only takes one or two bad accidents before "something must be done" and before you know it there's a law on RC ownership.

It's happening here with aircraft licencing.  It probably wouldn't have happened it VTOL RC had remained limited to big-bucks helicopters but the rise of the pocketmoney drone has meant anyone and everyone can go out and crash into someone else's property (or set off a security alert at a major international airport).  I guess we'll have to wait for an incident involving a cut-price 8S RTR before we see if land RC gets its own clamp-down.

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Much more than a Sports tuned and NiMHs I struggle to enjoy driving anything tbh. 
 

I don’t want to keep breaking and repairing my cars anymore, it gets time consuming and expensive. 

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I run all my off-road "old-school" Tamiyas (WR02, GF01, GF06, CW01) on a Traxxas XL5 ESC, 2S LiPo and a 12T Traxxas brushed motor. It gives me somewhere between 30-40 km/h, which I find very pleasant in a smaller space, and it's enough to break traction for drifts (or pull wheelies) which is enough for me with a 1/10(ish) Tamiya.

My bigger off-road stuff (Rustler, E-Revo, X-Maxx) is tuned and geared to run in the 50-60km/h range, enough to have a heap of fun at BMX tracks.

I have a XO1, capable of 160km/h, which is just not fun, but at 90-100km/h on 4S (with a bit of TSM) it's very controllable and only used in an industrial estate that's deserted on a Sunday.

TL:DR; I prefer wheelies and fun, to some ridiculous V-Max, but I 100% understand the adrenaline rush of high-speed driving and if that's your thing - enjoy it and be safe!

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I just don't squeeze the trigger so hard, I am totally confident to give my fastest car to my 7 year old, and he probably controls it better than I do.

 

You only break it when you hit something, don't hit stuff.

My boys had a brushless lunchbox for years now, not had to replace many parts at all. 

Depends where and how you drive it. 

It's like boost on tap. Great fun when you want it, easy enough to drive slowly as well.

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I think it's important to factor in the capability of the chassis and where you will run it too.

Fox example, my Grasshopper is already "interesting" with just a 27t silver can, especially on less than perfect tarmac and concrete. It's eagerness to tip over is extraordinary. But at the beach, that same buggy is enormous fun with a brushless motor, even on 3s! Sand is a lot more forgiving when it comes to traction rolling. I would never try to run it around on rough tarmac on 3s though......again lol

My Lunchbox was a bit more stable I found, the tyres absorb a little of the rough ground, compensating for the suspension deficiency and it's tendency to understeer kind of acts like an anti-roll system. I found it was a bit better with a brushless as long as you kept it modest. I've since then carried out an elaborate suspension upgrade including DT03 front suspension and 4 link at the rear which took it up another notch or two and I'm perfectly happy to use it with brushless for everyday use.

I find the Hotshot family handle brushless pretty well, even 3s if you keep to dirt and other lower traction surfaces. Most subsequent platforms seem to do ok too.

I think a lot of it is just about finding the realistic limits for both the individual vehicle and where you are going to use it.

There's no doubt a new culture of "powahhhhh" coming in though and you see a lot of ridiculously over powered vehicles these days. That just seems to be a trend now, pretty much every facebook group seems to be full of it these days and if they aren't trying to out-do each other with power and top speed, it's who's got the youngest kid who can drive the most powerful car "my 4 moth old fetus can already handle my x-maxx" etc

Even groups devoted to hobby converting toy grades has people like it. I'm the first to claim that some of Nikkos high end offerings were essentially hobby grade It's painful watching someone put a 5500kv 3s setup in a buggy that has the same handling prowess as a Grasshopper and reduce it to lots of little retro pieces. 

I remember sharing this video of a Nikko Dictator that I converted to brushless. The Dictator actually has a very decent dual wishbone all round suspension setup but even so, going from two brushed 380 motors to brushless 390 was certainly pushing things, top speed was probably tripled and acceleration as well. The first comment I got when I shared it on facebook? "needs 3s" seriously? 
 

 

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