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Saito2

Being different...the underdog effect

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I devoted the vast majority of my life to eat/breathing/sleeping cars, hot rods mostly. That has come to an end at last. I realized one of the many many reasons I gave them up was they became too mainstream. At one point in time being a hotrodder was not common. You usually had to go to the right places to be around like-minded others. Nowadays, it seems everyone loves cars. I feel like the whole mess has jumped the shark. I hate being directly targeted and marketed to by a whole machine intend on propagating the "hod rod lifestyle" (what ever that is). What's this have to do with RC? Well...

Back in the day, at least in the US, there would always be some folks that would race Tamiya products even though the whole field was mostly Associated, Losi, Kyosho etc. Tamiya had an underdog chic (in race circles, that is) that made them cool in some ways. It makes me wonder if part of the reason (just part, mind you) Traxxas is hated by some, is they've become the mainstream face of RC to the general public. They assault you with marketing and taglines like "the fastest name in RC". Tamiya, not so much. They seem to have a take-it-or-leave-it approach. I won't say they don't market, but I don't feel them trying to get in my head either. Tamiya certainly doesn't attempt to blind you with tribal graphics and EXTREME speeds. 

I'm not trying to be elitist, but is part of the Tamiya allure down to its "different" status? They always seem to march to the beat of a different drummer. While that may make less effective vehicles in some cases (i.e. CR01) it does make them cool and certainly more interesting than mainsteam. I realize this is shot through the lens of a US RC enthusiast so depending on worldwide location, your mileage may vary on this topic. Thoughts? 

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I like what i like and tend not to think about it too much. Be it my choice in what most would consider rubbish old cars, unreliable motorcycles or silly toy cars.

I do get where your coming from though. My motorbike has gone from some old bike, to fashionable, to almost embarrassingly cliche. So much so im tempted to sell it just to disassociate from that scene. Currently its just under a sheet while i forget it exists 😂  

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At the club scene its still like that, there are a few dominant brands which are usually because of the LHS or fast guys at the club.  At my offroad club HB Racing is the main brand, with Associated for 2wd 10th buggies and only because HB don't have a competitor at the moment.  I expect the D219 to be out in numbers next year when it is finally launched.  I haven't seen a Tamiya at a club day as they have been out of offroad for so long.

At the onroad club though there are a surprising number of Tamiya's.  They seem to be the car of choice for say F1 for people who want to give it a go.  For half the price of an XRay kit you get a complete F104 Pro V2 which is probably 98% as good as the Xray anyway, and it comes with a body.  There were 3 TRF102s when I started out of a field of 8 cars, with the national champ running XRay.  I would have expected everyone to copy him and buy an Xray.  There are about 3 TA07s that occasionally come out, and a few TRF419s.  Onroad people are different though, they chase the latest and greatest.  If it was more like the offroad club mentality there would be a bunch more TA07s as they are one of the few intermediate cars around.

The TT02 and TT02B spec classes are really popular though, so many racers have a Tamiya of some description.

So yeah, Tamiya is still the outsider at clubs, but with a loyal core of followers.

In the hobby market though I think they hold their own.  Most LHS will have a big wall of Traxxas etc, but usually almost as many Tamiya's.  I know my friends with kids are only looking at Tamiya's as their intro as they are kits and what they had as kids.  They are also affordable for other stuff like drifting, touring cars etc and the entry price doesn't scare people off. 

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It seems like Tamiya has a much better footprint in other parts of the world these days than they do in the US. The big chain hobby shops almost ignore them completely in favor of Traxxas and the various Horizon and Hobbico brands. Ask about Tamiya and they'll direct you to the paint section; that's about all they carry. Our local "good" hobby shop usually has a few Tamiya kits, but they'll be a couple of TT01/02s, a CC01, and maybe one or two big-seller re-res like a Hornet or a Lunchbox. That's it. If you want anything else, or need parts, they're happy to order them, but they need to order them. (But you could build any Traxxas or Axial vehicle from the last ten years from their spare-parts wall...)

My problem with Traxxas and the like has never been their products or engineering. They're clever, well-made, and a decent value. But any idiot can whip out a credit card, open a box, charge a battery, and ram into their garage door at 50 MPH. And starting in the late '90s and until very recently, Traxxas's marketing and branding department seemed intent on catering to exactly those idiots. (Things are getting better now, with the return of one or two kit offerings, and I'm hopeful.) Of course I want to distance myself from them.

Tamiya (and Kyosho), for me, is like putting on a favorite old record or going to a well-known restaurant. You know what you're going to get, and even if it's not quite as good as you remember, there's still something comforting about it.And I can just enjoy it for myself. I don't have to care if anybody else has any interest in a scruffy old Grasshopper, or Toto IV, or that hole-in-the-wall Thai restaurant I used to go to all the time when I lived around the corner from it. Because I like them.

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I'm basically a wannabe shut-in. (Though, my neighbors are surprised if I say I'm an introvert. I can carry on a conversation. That doesn't mean it's not draining life out of me)  

I've always avoided crowd, so I never compared.  Underdog, overdog, it didn't matter to me.  I always liked building more. And building, you do alone. (I always liked Tamiya because they never really did RTR. Even "Expert Built" were originally sold as kits.)  

I know what you mean, though.  It's like I was the only Goth kid, and now everybody is Goth.  But Don't you worry.  Kids these days don't do anything that doesn't have an LCD screen attached to it.  In 10 years, most Homo-Sapiens won't even know what screwdriver is.  Building kits will be a forgotten ancient art only Tamiya Shamans (like us) can perform. 

23IfbpK.jpg

Tamiya will carry on with kits.  Then we'll hear, "you mean you BUILT IT?" once again.  We'll say, "well, it was a kit, but yeah."  "What's a kit? Like a sewing kit?" (I have a vague feeling I had such a conversation before...)

 

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When you're racing with a TRF, nobody sees you as an underdog.

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1 hour ago, 94eg! said:

When you're racing with a TRF, nobody sees you as an underdog.

Thats bumper sticker worthy

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This goes back to the whole argument as to whether Tamiya models were considered more as toys by the hardcore racers. Models like the Associated kits and the suchlike were designed specifically for racing, they weren't really ever bought as christmas presents for your kids as a carpark bashers, whereas tamiya produce a more wide range of kits that cover almost all markets.

I never really got into competitive racing, although I did a bit of on road, and from what I remember,  a lot of the cars I'd never heard of or were specialist types built for racing only.

I dont really think it matters what kind of car you have, TC thrives on discussion and points of view, so wouldn't it be dull if we were all the same...

I'm with Juggular though, for me, the interest is in the build and restoration of the older models. Although I do venture out into the world every so often....🙄

J

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Most of us on here are here because it was our childhood racer/toy/basher.

Back in the day the videos of Tamiya were on constantly in my 2 local hobby shops, Monster Beetle, LunchBox, |Bomerang, Bigwig, Supershot, Falcon, Frog, Grasshopper and on and on. We bought guide books and if you were like me spent hours reading and re-reading every word. SO marketing was a massive part of the Tamiya brand.

Who here learnt about racing lines from a Tamiya guide book?

Who read it so much that it started to fall apart? who here knew the specs of almost every buggy in there?

in the age before computers and more spare money (for us kids to get these buggies) we wanted for ages, we wee happy to build, then bash and fix.

NOW, kids want things instant and change from one fad to the next in seconds, hence they want RTR, no patience and if it breaks its left not to be touched as they did not build it they cant fix it (I know I am generalizing but so true of a lot of todays youth.)

So for me its about nostalgia, nostalgia and nostalgia. I now have 2 display cabinets full of the real buggies that were the center pages of my old guide books, I can lift hem out, work on them, fettle and IF I really want to put a battery in them and take them outside and break them!!

My kids have there favorites to look at BUT they all like my bash their own buggies which I fettle and fix, there are 2 Tamiya for the ladies who are not so hard on them and 3 Traxas for us boys as we like big air and hard landings and they are SOOOOOOO much more robust than Tamiya.

Best starter buggy for a little one is still in my opinion a Madbull, it looks good (ODD) will run on most surfaces and is easy to fix My 2 little ones started on them and the little lady still loves here pink one with a barbie head for a driver.

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6 hours ago, Juggular said:

I'm basically a wannabe shut-in. (Though, my neighbors are surprised if I say I'm an introvert. I can carry on a conversation. That doesn't mean it's not draining life out of me)  

 

6 hours ago, Juggular said:

I know what you mean, though.  It's like I was the only Goth kid, and now everybody is Goth.  But Don't you worry.  Kids these days don't do anything that doesn't have an LCD screen attached to it.  In 10 years, most Homo-Sapiens won't even know what screwdriver is.  Building kits will be a forgotten ancient art only Tamiya Shamans (like us) can perform. 

Its like you read my mind. I'd rather go back to work than attend my company mandated Christmas "party" just because I'm that painfully introverted :wacko:.

55 minutes ago, Baddon said:

Who here learnt about racing lines from a Tamiya guide book?

Who read it so much that it started to fall apart? who here knew the specs of almost every buggy in there?

I certainly did!:)

55 minutes ago, Baddon said:

NOW, kids want things instant and change from one fad to the next in seconds, hence they want RTR, no patience and if it breaks its left not to be touched as they did not build it they cant fix it (I know I am generalizing but so true of a lot of todays youth.)

I completely agree with all this but just to play devil's advocate...what if we were born into today's culture? Would we turn out the same? I'm not sure I personally would. I shun new tech because its always been part of my make-up. The old ways are often best in my mind  (though, logically, I know this isn't true in all circumstances of course). Despite not being neurotypical however, I can still see my patience being reduced if I was raised in this era. Its what one comes to expect  nowadays unfortunately. That's not a dig at anyone from any era, just the old nature vs. nurture debate.

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I think with me, yeah underdoggedness is part of the whole RC thing, I mean it's possibly why I still love my Hornet. The other part is I just love what the old Tamiya buggies represent.
They most (the ones I like/have) came out when racing buggies and fun buggies weren't that far apart and designs hasn't necessarily converged like they did just a bit down the road, in terms of pure racers anyway.
I'm also plus 1 on the introvertedness btw. I just love to stay in and tinker, or read.

I alos like inventing new words. It Embiggens me.

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Nothing wrong with Embiggen, that's a perfectly cromulent word. 

I'll have to sit down and think about why I actually started with Tamiya, never having had one as a child and starting my RC car hobby a couple years ago with a rere kit. It could be the hipster effect for me, I did dabble with rtr brushless monsters but it kind of felt... embarrassing? 

Tamiya has very quickly found a spot very dear to my black heart. Are they the best? No, but they're mine and they have a lot of charm. If you operate outside the boundaries of others and only focus on your own standards then it's a lot easier to 'win' 

I like the heart and soul of old RC and I think that's carried over in part with modern Tamiya too. There's a fair few misses but when they hit on something it's spectacular. 

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11 hours ago, Juggular said:

I'm basically a wannabe shut-in. (Though, my neighbors are surprised if I say I'm an introvert. I can carry on a conversation. That doesn't mean it's not draining life out of me)

 

Introverts of the world, unite! (But, you know, online, so we don't have to actually meet.)

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11 hours ago, Juggular said:

I know what you mean, though.  It's like I was the only Goth kid, and now everybody is Goth.  But Don't you worry.  Kids these days don't do anything that doesn't have an LCD screen attached to it.  In 10 years, most Homo-Sapiens won't even know what screwdriver is. 

 

Well, I'm transgender. I probably won't have to worry about everyone going trans :P

And yes, Traxxas can suck it. Once I saw methheads in the hobby shop asking how to replace a wheel, I knew that the hobby had turned a corner and for the worst. 

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7 hours ago, Saito2 said:

 

I completely agree with all this but just to play devil's advocate...what if we were born into today's culture? Would we turn out the same? I'm not sure I personally would. I shun new tech because its always been part of my make-up. The old ways are often best in my mind  (though, logically, I know this isn't true in all circumstances of course). Despite not being neurotypical however, I can still see my patience being reduced if I was raised in this era. Its what one comes to expect  nowadays unfortunately. That's not a dig at anyone from any era, just the old nature vs. nurture debate.

You are absolutely right - its common to moan about the younger generation but the stats don't support any of it. In fact, the current younger generations entering the workforce are far more sensible (less drinking and associated risky behaviour) and waste less money than their parents. They just work differently, but in my view more effectively (who wants to spend 12 hours in the office  work smarter and go to the beach!). I've adopted their ideas and went out on my own and work from home, when and how I want.

I have a 6yo and all the kids who come over(lots, we live in a great community) are fascinated by our cars and want to know about building them etc. OR they have no interest and want to read books. OR want to jump on the trampoline or play outside. Which is completely normal kid behaviour, nothing about generations. However, if you put a screen in front of them they are all mesmorised which is what the screen is designed to do, but what 6yo has the economic ability or has been given the power to buy a screen or decide how they spend their days...but its a great babysitter for the parents. Its not that kids have changed, its that their parents (ie us) find it easier to give them a screen/babysitter than play with them or get them involved. I know cooking dinner is easier by myself but thats losing the opportunity for a good lesson/practice for someone who needs to learn.

Rant over

In saying that even though I know that Traxxas is doing a good thing, as for every 10 Traxxas people 1 or 2 will buy a real toy car that they build themselves and has a soul, I still don't get why they start with Traxxas. Theres a good chance those people were never given the skills by their parents though growing up and don't feel confident enough to build a kit first up? Or traxxas have a bigger margin and they are steered towards them by the LHS owner?

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Traxxas sells. Traxxas are very durable as well as fast out of the box. Traxxas also has good customer service. All reasons they dominate LHSs. As much as I hate to admit it, a Stampede is a safer bet for the dealer and first time buyer. If a first timer bought a Blackfoot re-re they would have to contend with possible universal driveshaft issues and possible clicking diff gears. It would be a headache for the dealer and might turn the buyer off to RC. All the quirks we call character might not be well-received by others.

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I sell kits and ready-to-runs. RTRs dominate because they have better bang for the buck and most people think of the assembly as something they have to do, not get to do. A lot of my customers don't do any maintenance whatsoever; they bring it to me when it breaks or won't drive properly. They keep the light on, but aren't what I'd consider to be hobbiests. Some buy RTRs and hang a bunch of option parts on them.

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I think RTR's are, potentially at least a good avenue into the hobby as it were.
It's probably not so common but I'd like to think that some who go down the RTR route either end up customizing the badword out of their rides or move on to more build it yourself types of product.

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13 hours ago, Big Jon said:

I sell kits and ready-to-runs. RTRs dominate because they have better bang for the buck and most people think of the assembly as something they have to do, not get to do. A lot of my customers don't do any maintenance whatsoever; they bring it to me when it breaks or won't drive properly. They keep the light on, but aren't what I'd consider to be hobbiests. Some buy RTRs and hang a bunch of option parts on them.

For whatever reason, I hate these people with an irrational hatred. They shouldn't be in a hobby shop. Just like the methhead mouth breathers that bought T-Maxxes back in the day or the Slashes of current. I hate going into my LHS's here. The level of customer service I get, is absolutely terrible. I'm sure it's because the owner/employees are tired of dealing with idiots. I'll have no issues watching those two shops implode as I shop online.

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1 hour ago, NWarty said:

For whatever reason, I hate these people with an irrational hatred. They shouldn't be in a hobby shop. Just like the methhead mouth breathers that bought T-Maxxes back in the day or the Slashes of current. I hate going into my LHS's here. The level of customer service I get, is absolutely terrible. I'm sure it's because the owner/employees are tired of dealing with idiots. I'll have no issues watching those two shops implode as I shop online.

Some of those people you hate so much will end up sticking with RC, keeping the hobby alive. I'm sure there are some on here that started out that way. Everyone starts somewhere.

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51 minutes ago, Biz73 said:

Some of those people you hate so much will end up sticking with RC, keeping the hobby alive. I'm sure there are some on here that started out that way. Everyone starts somewhere.

Yeah, sorry. I’m a little salty this morning :/

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On 12/11/2019 at 6:48 PM, markbt73 said:

My problem with Traxxas and the like has never been their products or engineering. They're clever, well-made, and a decent value. But any idiot can whip out a credit card, open a box, charge a battery, and ram into their garage door at 50 MPH. And starting in the late '90s and until very recently, Traxxas's marketing and branding department seemed intent on catering to exactly those idiots. (Things are getting better now, with the return of one or two kit offerings, and I'm hopeful.) Of course I want to distance myself from them.

This is a important point. The three cheapest, lower end Traxxas offerings, the Stampede, Rustler and Bandit are actually downright retro at their core. Unlike Tamiya who stopped production and then re-released models, Traxxas just kept chugging along, pumping them out. They wisely tweaked and upgraded them but the basic "bones" of today's Stampede is remarkably similar to what you got in 1994. Like @markbt73 noted, its the marketing team that has managed to make them look like jack*$$y toys, that we, as hobbyist, so detest. But, it keeps the money coming in. I like those offerings and hope to "retrofy" some of them so I'm not embarrassed to be seen with them in public. I have no intention of turning my hat sideways or wearing saggy pants or vaping or whatever passes as "cool" today to fit the vehicles' current image, so it is the vehicles that must change ;).

2 hours ago, NWarty said:

Just like the methhead mouth breathers that bought T-Maxxes back in the day

I've seen this resentment before and I completely understand it. The Maxx trucks were revolutionary but also destructive to previous norms in our hobby. Begrudgingly, they also infused our hobby when it was on a down slide (for better or worse). I bought an Emaxx several years ago (long after the hype went down) to see what made it tick. It is a very impressive piece of engineering compared to what came before it. Having analyzed it and experienced it, I'm putting it up for sale. Its not quite for me.

I felt the same way about 5.0 foxbody Mustangs when they were in their prime. I own and appreciate one now (again, long after the hype ran out of gas) but wouldn't be caught dead in one in the early 90's. I hate that hip, "too cool for school" attitude but it appears I'm guilty of it at times which leaves me conflicted. The interesting take away is, the products themselves may be good, but leave it to people to find a way the muck it up.

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To be honest I didn't read throught the thread. But, i get it. I love Tamiya for a multitude of reasons. I love the quality that is inherent with them, the details of their bodies on even the raciest of their cars, and the joy of assembling of them. But as the title of this thread suggests there is the unquantifiable benefit of being the underdog. Most people write off Tamiyas as toys until they are beat by one. Even when the 801Xs were new people were shocked when I bested their Lossi , Kyosho, and Associate offerings. Still happens today even thought the chassis are over 10 years old. 

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19 hours ago, NWarty said:

Yeah, sorry. I’m a little salty this morning :/

I hear you there. I'm pretty salty every morning! :lol:

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On 12/11/2019 at 9:40 PM, Saito2 said:

I devoted the vast majority of my life to eat/breathing/sleeping cars, hot rods mostly. That has come to an end at last. I realized one of the many many reasons I gave them up was they became too mainstream.

In the UK, hotrodding is a dying art, 2 of our permanent drag strips closed, only leaving Santa Pod (and housing companies are chomping at the bit to buy the land around it, but  "A report to the council found Santa Pod Raceway and the developers Wrenbridge could not deliver a range of noise mitigation measures" ,  hopefully not , but could only be a matter of time before that heads he same way as Shakey). The 90's was all home grown, spannering in garage proper stuff, trawling through scrap yards finding cheap ways of getting the job done, brilliant times. Now to be competitive,  you need to fill out a cheque to the likes of, Steve Morris, but we're now in an era of 5 second 'street cars' , Topfuel was running 5's in the 90's (first 4 in the uk was 2002 if I remember right!).

On 12/11/2019 at 9:40 PM, Saito2 said:

I hate being directly targeted and marketed to by a whole machine intend on propagating the "hod rod lifestyle"

 Has crossed my mind, looking around the pits at the strip, tattoos , jeans, and the older the car event T shirt the better, everyone trying to be, different....🤔

When one of my mates asked me why I don't have any tattoos, my reply, "because I like being different " seemed to draw a funny look 😏

 

On 12/11/2019 at 9:40 PM, Saito2 said:

Tamiya had an underdog chic (in race circles, that is) that made them cool in some ways

If you could win with a Tamiya, that made YOU cool, not necessarily the car, I had a frog, and was getting spanked by the RC10's etc ,i bought an Ultima ,when that arrived on the scene, and won, which meant I suddenly enjoyed racing a load more than getting lapped! 

 

On 12/11/2019 at 9:40 PM, Saito2 said:

Traxxas is hated by some, is they've become the mainstream face of RC to the general public.

Not over here, I think I've only ever seen one Traxxas car in person, and that's an 1/18 (?) scale thing, but if they are bringing people into the hobby/sport (?) that wouldn't normally be drawn to it ,surely thats good? 

 

On 12/11/2019 at 9:40 PM, Saito2 said:

. I realize this is shot through the lens of a US RC enthusiast so depending on worldwide location, your mileage may vary on this topic.

Interesting to get the different outlook,  obviously it's brands such as , Schumacher , which are more dominant in racing circles (as well as Team Associated). Tamiya are seen more of a , starter car, when our club have done the, have a go exhibitions , most of the dads ,' used to have one of these bitd'. 

I see Tamiya as more ,RC scale models, they actually look like a replica (or could be), where as the competition machines are just that, built to go fast.

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