ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted January 22, 2020 Hi all, long time no post So as a young kid I had the Hornet, and with the Hornet came one of the fabulous Tamiya guidebooks. This was probably around ‘86 or so. As all of us did I’m sure, I drooled over all of the photos and action pics, and loved the Audi, Opel, Lancia and Pajero. They were so interesting and mysterious to my young eyes - they looked very different to the ‘buggy’ Hornet, and somehow cool and unobtainable. ...and of course, this: I simply loved the idea of these cars, the photography was absolutely awesome and they looked so cool. Anyway, fast forward years later, and having got back into the hobby 2-3 years ago, I decided it would be amazing to have one of these cars. Only problem is, they’re as rare as the tears of a unicorn. So, did some research and found a fair few recreations of these cars as the originals are very rare - and got lots of help and advice from the awesome people here on TC ... I bought an ABS hard body Lancia shell a few years ago, but then never did anything with it as I was unsure how to attempt to cut out the larger wheel arches. Basically, I was a bit daunted by trying to cut big wheel arches into a beautiful pristine Tamiya hard body...yikes. I’ve since plucked up the courage and enlarged the wheel arches, from this: ...to this: I traced the arches in pencil using the internal ridges in the shell - read the thread above for the info and advice on how to find the curve: I was super-nervous doing this for the first time but basically it all turned out really well. I cut most of the plastic out using side cutters, then used a Dremel 3000 with a sanding mandrel bit running at low RPM to remove plastic closer to the intended curve that the side cutters couldn’t get to, then hand sanding the final last refinements to the curves to make sure they’re perfect and correct. So this all turned out really well and I now feel a lot more confident with ABS shells (these were sort of a dark art as far as I was concerned) Then, the ‘donor car’ arrived: The Brat is the obvious choice as a base chassis. I have zero knowledge of this chassis, however have always admired the Brat from the Tamiya guidebooks, and also and particularly, the frankly insanely awesome Frog (to my 9 year old eyes!). So donor car kit for the Lancia Rally is in place (with a Brat and a Frog also now on their way because I just had to...looking forward to these...👀.) and ready to use as the base chassis. Have also ordered various other required components that will be required for this build Will post updates here with the build progress. Am really looking forward to this 10 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aerobert 2147 Posted January 22, 2020 I would have been nervous as well when cutting the shell but it is looking very good. I will follow this with interest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted January 30, 2020 Ok so have been progressing with this build, am super excited about it. Quite liking the ORV build and design/details.... a bit odd, I have to say, but in a nice way! At least not what I'm used to in terms of the builds I've completed (DT03, TT02B, Hornet, WT01, to name a few) . I will post on this aspect of the build so far in the near future. However, the current issue is this: I cannot find the original Lancia Rally wheels....anywhere. Current problem is trying to find a way to mount front wheels and tyres. I obtained some Honda City Turbo wheels as a substitute to the Lancia Rally ones (sacrilege, I know), these apparently being the same part as on Opel Ascona / Audi Quattro Rally kits. MY basic issue is that I need to find a way to fix the front wheels to the the Brat/Subaru front axles. I have posted some extracts below from various manuals to add some explanation to the issue follow:. First is the Honda City Turbo front wheels installation manual extract. These show the primary parts I am working with, F1 and K2, and the tyres: By comparison, this is the Brat front axle parts below. These axles do not fit the part K2, as they're intended to be axle and ball bearing only, whilst the Honda City Turbo is a cross pin that passes through the axle and locks into K2 part. The Brat axle is too fat for the K2 part, i think being 4mm step screw trying to fit a 3mm aperture. By way of comparison with the original Lancia Rally, here is the front for the Lancia car: This is clearly a different piece of wheel to Asona / Honda, accepting a ball bearing in the wheel, and I do not know the axle shaft diameter, although this is somewhat academic as I don't have these wheels anyway. (Side comment / observation: Isn't it fun tracking down scans of obscure, old manuals, and using them to make new creations? Geeky, but love it ) Here are the wheel / tyres I am working with from the Honda City Turbo, wheels first. When looking at the bottom two wheels, the left is the inside of the rear (hex fitting), the right is the inside of the front, shown without the K2 part. The centre disc with holes is a potential key part of solving the problem, I just can't find a way to make it engage with any part of the axle or a ball bearing: Wheels: Fitted with tyres (just no way to fit to car currently I will keep persevering with finding a solution and post back soon, but if any one of you fine gentlemen/ladies have any experience with this issue, I'd appreciate if you could share Hopefully I'm just being stupid and the issue is easy to resolve. Thanks all. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frog Jumper 3661 Posted January 30, 2020 You might have to find a modern 12mm hex equivalent, and use a front hex adapter (search for dt03 front hex adapter). Terry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderDragonCy 7881 Posted January 30, 2020 @ALEXKYRIAK Good to see you back with another cool build. If these wheels are dedicated to this build i have an idea. Get some flanged 1150 bearings (search 5x11x4 flanged on rcbearings.co.uk). Buy a 4.9mm reamer bit. Drill through the centre of the assembled wheel to 4.9 then press in the flanged bearings on each side. You now have a bearing fit front wheels. I don't know whether the offset or position of the bearings will work at this point, but spacing them out with some 5mm shims and washers should do it. Schumacher 5x7x0.4 shims are my go to for shimmibg next to bearings. Once you are away from the bearing face you can just use regular m4 washers. If you can fit a spacer inside the wheel between the bearings you will also be able to clamp it up tight removing slop whilst still having it spin freely. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
a.w.k. 665 Posted February 1, 2020 Hi @ALEXKYRIAK, this is my solution for mounting Wheeler wheels on the 037 This are the parts you need for one wheel: a 8x22x7 bearing as on the original wheeler, if you have a lathe you can turn a spacer with those dimensions. Two 5x8 flanged bearings, a 8x5 metal bearing, 5 screws 2x6mm and the disc with the holes. Insert the 5x8 flanged bearings into the 8x22x7 bearing from either side, then insert the bearing assembly into the wheeler wheel and secure the disc with the holes with the 2x6mm screws. Slide the 5x8 metal bearing onto the lancias front wheel axle and mount the wheel with the nylon lock nut. Job done. 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frog Jumper 3661 Posted February 1, 2020 Careful! Using bearing-in-bearing like that can tear a hole in the space-time continuum, believe me! Terry Brilliant solution BTW! 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted February 2, 2020 @Frog Jumper - hilarious...! You should do a build around this concept using this as the main propulsion method. @ThunderDragonCy thanks a lot mate, great suggestion. I got hold of some flanged bearings at the size you mentioned - never seen these things before, they're brilliant - and almost made a solution work with the wheels in question. I can get a way to make the fixings sort of work, but it's not exactly robust due to the shape and profile of the inside of the wheel. I had wondered if this simply was an axle length problem for a while, and considered putting in a different knuckle and axle. @a.w.k. thank you so much for the detailed explanation this looks like the ticket! I was even drawing up so 22mm blocks to get cut - I didn't think you could get bearings at this size for RC cars, and definitely "bearing in bearing" is genius! Have ordered some and will give this a go. Interestingly the original Audi Quattro Rally manual just calls this a "large bearing", no indication of size as far as i can see. Here is the Wheeler wheel in more detail: This is the insert form the Honda City Kit K2 part. If I bored a hoel into this i think it would have split the plastic: K2 inserted to wheel: So I can't use this insert, as it's not compatible with the Brat/Frog front knuckles / axle. My current solution will be to follow @a.w.k. solution as posted above. Anyway, so here are some progress pics and comments. This is the current status of the build. Am having fun with this being my first time on an ORV chassis. Very interesting design solution on this one...! Very old school in every department. Love the shock design, fornt and rear, and the gear design and rhe rubber 'boots'. I decided to go with centred servo and steering - not vintage, I know, but was interested to try this mod. I used the AmPro components for the servo mount struts: To get the symmetric steering arms, I ordered some 1mm threaded rod, and cut the rod to size using the Dremel with steel cutter rotary disc. To get the measurements, I installed the servo and the hubs/knuckles, then measured the geometry. Servo ball stud to to steering knuckle ball stud was approx 75mm, so I cut the threaded rods to about 65mm lengths, so achieve a 47mm space between the ball cups. This has got the lengths into the right ball park, I can do the final adjust when the wheels are on. I may need to adjust the rod lengths once the suspension and shocks are fully complete and installed. Will fine tune this later if need be. As mentioned above, this is my first ORV. Loving the old school design. Front knuckles and hubs are very cool, as is the suspension arms. I am considering using an actual shock on the front arms, as opposed to the recessed spring and plunger. Also really like the gearbox with metal side plates. Have read about the problems with this design in the ORV lineup of cars/buggies, and I toyed with the idea of the MIP ball diff kit for this build, but its' expensive and have read it's not necessary for a Brat. I did order one anyway, just won't use it in this car. Also love the rubber 'boots' over the rear axles. Anyway, the next update will likely be Round 8 of Me vs The Wheels Installation.... It's taken a while to figure these out and with the advice from the guys above hopefully I will have solved the front wheel assembly. Hoping the rears are a bit more simple..! Then by that point the shock mods will be ready. For the shocks, I've ordered some damper mounts from the net that fit the Brat / Frog, but I also decided to make my own carbon fibre ones to variable geometry dimensions - these arrived super quick from Fiberlyte. Will post all this development in the near future...! In other news, I have a Brat build running concurrently with this one (on a black chassis), and it's all making my itchy to finally get the Frog at some point soon...! 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
a.w.k. 665 Posted February 4, 2020 On 2/1/2020 at 8:13 PM, Frog Jumper said: Careful! Using bearing-in-bearing like that can tear a hole in the space-time continuum, believe me! Terry Brilliant solution BTW! As far as i know those bearings are also used in another 80s thing, skateboards. So there already was a disturbance in the space time continuum when Tamiya used massive Skateboard bearings for their Willy cars, maybe a bearing in a bearing creates a real time machine to travel back to the 80s....😎 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted February 6, 2020 So the bearings arrived and the good news is I have test fitted the front wheels, all looks good... progress As per @a.w.k. advice, I fitted the large bearing, with two bearings inside (luckily spacetime behaved itself). The large bearings are a) large and satisfyingly chunky feeling bit of kit and b) perfect fit for the wheels. Right to left: 8x22x7 bearing, two 5x8 flanged bearings, 5x8 bearing Here fitted, right wheel complete with cover plate screwed in, left without plate yet screwed in. The cover plate comes with the wheels parts. Fitted the wheel perfectly. I used the black plastic washer cap from the Honda city turbo K parts tree, you can see it just behind the wheel nut. The outside of the wheel has a larger than normal hole, this cap fills it in and closes up against the bearing. So here we are with front wheels fitted. The steering rod lengths required no adjustment, they were magically perfect first time round 👌 Next job is to fit the rears. Think there will be some fiddling here, potentially using hex extenders. Will post progress soon 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted February 8, 2020 So minor update: have now got the rears fitted...yay! The rear wheel inside profile is very deep. So I got hold of some rear 12mm x 15mm length aluminium hex extenders to fit it (in red of all colours... don’t ask...), also using a washer, and the K part washer plastic cap. This Brat/Frog rear axle is very long but the crosspin position is pretty tight to the hub. I tried to find other axle pieces but nothing came up. I also started out with a 20mm hex extender but realised petty quickly this extender was too long and the wheel nut did not have enough axle thread to engage with the wheel properly. Here is the 20mm in black for reference: So I think I have the rear wheels sorted for this car using the red 15mm extenders to accept the Honda City Turbo wheel set. This has probably been the most difficult car I’ve worked on for a while.. Now just awaiting the suspension parts, then it’s body fitting time....! 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderDragonCy 7881 Posted February 8, 2020 @ALEXKYRIAK I have used some hex extenders on my DT03 to get the stance right. They have extended socket nuts to make them work. You have to drill the centre of the wheel to 5mm and you need an 8mm socket instead of 7mm to tighten them, but they are solid. Here's some 20mm versions https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133015275656 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted February 10, 2020 Thanks Thunder, yes these extended socket bits came with the extenders I installed. The hole in the City Turbo wheel is too big for them so they wouldn’t have fitted, and I didn’t fancy having the nut stick out on this car (to keep the looks as original as possible). I previously used some extenders on my WT01 build and as you say I had to drill out the aperture in the plastic wheel to make them work. Quite a novel bit of kit actually. Small pause on this Lancia build while I’m awaiting a few parts. Hopefully they’ll turn up soon so I can get cracking on the suspension. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blissard 359 Posted February 10, 2020 Awesome build! I can't wait to see more. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted February 19, 2020 Ok so an update to the project. This is the current status of this build: The parts for the front suspension finally arrived from HK and China (my thoughts and respect are with those affected there) and I could continue the next part of the build. First things first though, I had to remove a little bit of slop in the front wheel assemblies. It was bugging me. Slop is like an itch. I installed a 0.2mm and 0.1mm 5mm shim per axle to stop the wheel moving laterally. Then next up was fitting the front shock mounts. Here I am experimenting with an aluminium shock mount: I decided to try a somewhat crazy idea and fit Hornet rear shocks to the front of this Lancia build, so one delivery later from the magnificent Tamico and I had this lot sitting on my table: almost all of the parts required for rear hornet shocks. I am building these without the Hornet ball socket at the bottom of the piston, and will use a standard CVA shock short base eyelet piece: So with the aluminium shock mounts and the front shocks fitted, the chassis looks like this. Front shock length is unadjusted apart from the fact that there is a CVA eyelet on the base of the shock. I mounted the shocks themselves using an 8mm or 10mm spacer, one at top and one at bottom of shock: I then tentatively rested the body onto the chassis. I will need to work out how to fit the body posts to the shell, which I will look into next. A few things about the build at this juncture make me nervous 1) it feels like the wheels of the Honda City Turbo appears that they may be slightly small than the original Rally Lancia ones, in terms of diameter. When I rest the shell in the chassis something doesn’t look the same as the photos of the lancia original. And 2) I will need to play with these Hornet Rear shocks slightly as the spring appears to not be stiff enough to return the nose of the car back up to full ride height. I also need to check the fixing method to ensure the screws and spacers are not too tight so as to create a restrictive friction on the free rotation of the shock base and head to the arms and damper mounts. It’s been a tricky build so far but well worth it, especially now the shocks and body are fitted and I can see how it might be shaping up...! More to follow 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderDragonCy 7881 Posted February 19, 2020 Looks great Alex. I have had a look at some pictures and i think the size of the wheels looks same as the original from what i can see in photos. For the front dampers, a 5mm ball nut will let you mount the bottom shocks mounts. You just need a longer screw. The head shouldn't interfere with the shock end if it's that small. If they are struggling to return, try emptying the shocks of oil and seeing if you have the same issue. If it holds up without oil then the springs are stiff enough, you just need really light oil. If it still sags alot then you will need some stiffer springs. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grastens 2795 Posted February 19, 2020 The tires are ever so slightly smaller - a matter of millimetres. That, the decidedly road-oriented tread design, and the non-original wheels have kept me from undertaking the same conversion on my own Lancia chassis. That being said, your build has me convinced I was all wrong about that! The front shocks look superb, and really the whole thing is fantastic. Hence, I would not worry too much about the tire size; you are still very much retaining the essence of the original! I will continue to follow this build with great interest 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted February 24, 2020 Thanks @ThunderDragonCy and @Grastens . So managed to get some RC building time in this evening, but it was spent more scratching my head rather than doing any actual building. So the current issue is in trying to fit the body to the brat/frog chassis. Remembering that this is not an original Lancia shell, the existing body mount hole positions need to be reconciled with the available chassis mounting positions. At the front, the Brat/Frog has a central front mounting hole whereas the Lancia shell has a double hole mounting configuration. Chassis shown here with the central mounting piece with the threaded rod: Compared to the Lancia front double holes: So my options here are to either drill a single hole in the body on the front of the bonnet, or to (somehow) find a way to create a body mounting strut that connects via two mounting struts to the existing two holes in the shell (not likely). Considering the rear mounting holes, in connecting the two side body mount positions, I need to find a suitable position to mount from. I am wondering if I should use the two battery mount holes below the shock somehow. Or, to fit some sort of additional bracket onto these holes to allow the battery restraint piece and a body mount. I got hold of some threaded body mount pieces from an F103 chassis but these are probably too long, and I think if connected to the battery holder positions they will be a) too low for the body and b) too wide to fit inside the width of the inside of the body shell : So my main issue is that I know the position I want to fit the shell in, but I can’t yet determine a way to a) fit the shell via mounting hole struts method, and b) determine exactly how to position the shell in terms of specific dimensions in the forward/backwards dimension, and to some degree the lateral left/right position, to the point where I know exactly where to drill the holes. I can hold it in the right position, but I need a way to imprint the mounting position onto the shell to be able to fix the holes for drilling. Am super nervous on this stage, as if I get the positions wrong, it’ll really mess up the body. I have been here before on another project, where I’ve over drilled holes in a lexan body because of trying to hold a shell on a body in what I suspected to be the right position (front/back, left/right, and vertically), only to find that for various reasons it wasn’t as obvious as originally thought and I totally messed it up... If anyone had been here before, can you share any tips? Much appreciated...! In the meantime I’ll keep plugging away at methods for the best mounting and positioning technique. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted February 24, 2020 double post please delete Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderDragonCy 7881 Posted February 25, 2020 @ALEXKYRIAK Maybe try bolting some body mounts to the top shock mounts. Did this at the rear of my RS200 because that had no other options 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
a.w.k. 665 Posted February 25, 2020 On 1/22/2020 at 1:36 AM, ALEXKYRIAK said: ...to this: if you look closely you can see the old position of the rear mounting hole at the lower part of the side panel behind the door, a little bit less than a half circle. I would open these up to their former size , mount the body like the original to the original rear points on the chassis. Then its easy to determine tne position of the front single mounting hole on the body from underneath. 1 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted March 2, 2020 Thanks @a.w.k. I can see the half circle externally, and I can just see a circle on the inside of the shell, traced here in pencil. This appears to line up with the part circle apparent on the outside of the shell. Just to be absolutely sure, I assume this is what you’re referring to? Just want to be sure before I start drilling!!! And thanks @ThunderDragonCy, that was my other plan B...! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
a.w.k. 665 Posted March 3, 2020 18 hours ago, ALEXKYRIAK said: Thanks @a.w.k. I can see the half circle externally, and I can just see a circle on the inside of the shell, traced here in pencil. This appears to line up with the part circle apparent on the outside of the shell. Just to be absolutely sure, I assume this is what you’re referring to? i dug out the ta03rs Lancia and the original Lancia 5840 body set for comparison. The side hole is roughly about 14mm from the door shut line on the inside, on the outside it is completely above the lower side beam. Also found the marking of the front single hole on the new body on the underside of the bonnet, marked with a pencil. looking forward to your finished car 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEXKYRIAK 1046 Posted March 7, 2020 Thanks @a.w.k. You, Sir, are a Scholar and a Gentleman. Much appreciated that post. Well, body is now on.....! (Sort of) So after much scratching of head and measuring and trying to find the edges of almost invisible markings on the inside of the shell, I finally plucked up the courage to drill out - or ream out, to be more specific - the two side holes and the bonnet holes. Side: ...and the bonnet hole located centrally between the two existing holes either side (these will need filling somehow): For the body mounting posts, I searched the net for something that looked about the right size and chanced my arm on it, and obtained some of these F104 mounting posts: These were my stand in for the part a3 of the original Lancia Rally, as picture here from the original manual. These were a sort of screw - body mount combo piece: So here is my current problem, which only those who have built with this chassis might understand. The front body post needs to be extended as it’s too short: Here it is shown with two spacers, however it still needs more height.... which means replacing the screw that fits through the black plastic mount piece. But.... to get this screw out I think I need to take out the whole of the front of the car, including the damper mounts, the front aluminium brackets, and pull the chassis halves apart to make access for the screw that fit through the black plastic mount piece... jeepers. I’ll attempt this tomorrow, am out of time this evening, so in the meantime a few pics: It looks fairly accurate to the reference photos I’m using. The wheel size bugs me quite a bit, actually, I can tell they’re just a tiny bit too small. Will try a better job of fitting the body tomorrow hopefully, and will pull apart the front to fit a longer screw for the front mount post. More soon 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frog Jumper 3661 Posted March 7, 2020 Did you try a Brat front post??? I love your ORV... 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites