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ALEXKYRIAK

Lancia Rally 58040 re-creation build

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Hi all, long time no post :)

So as a young kid I had the Hornet, and with the Hornet came one of the fabulous Tamiya guidebooks. This was probably around ‘86 or so. 
 

As all of us did I’m sure, I drooled over all of the photos and action pics, and loved the Audi, Opel, Lancia and Pajero. They were so interesting  and mysterious to my young eyes - they looked very different to the ‘buggy’ Hornet, and somehow cool and unobtainable. 
 

 

Lancia Project

 

Lancia project

 

 

Lancia Project

 

Lancia Project

 

Lancia Project

 

...and of course, this:

Lancia Project

 

I simply loved the idea of these cars, the photography was absolutely awesome and they looked so cool.
 

Anyway, fast forward years later, and having got back into the hobby 2-3 years ago, I decided it would be amazing to have one of these cars. Only problem is, they’re as rare as the tears of a unicorn.
 

So, did some research and found a fair few recreations of these cars as the originals are very rare - and got lots of help and advice from the awesome people here on TC ...   

 I bought an ABS hard body Lancia shell a few years ago, but then never did anything with it as I was unsure how to attempt to cut out the larger wheel arches.
 

Basically, I was a bit daunted by trying to cut big wheel arches into a beautiful pristine Tamiya hard body...yikes. 
 

 I’ve since plucked up the courage and enlarged the wheel arches, from this:

Lancia Rally

 

...to this:

Lancia Rally

 

I traced the arches in pencil using the internal ridges in the shell - read the thread above for the info and advice on how to find the curve:

 

Lancia Project

 

I was super-nervous doing this for the first time but basically it all turned out really well. I cut most of the plastic out using side cutters, then used a Dremel 3000  with a sanding mandrel bit running at low RPM to remove plastic closer to the intended curve that the side cutters couldn’t get to, then hand sanding the final last refinements to the curves to make sure they’re perfect and correct. 
 

Lancia Project


So this all turned out really well and I now feel a lot more confident with ABS shells (these were sort of a dark art as far as I was concerned) 

Then, the ‘donor car’ arrived:

Lancia Project

 

The Brat is the obvious choice as a base chassis. I have zero knowledge of this chassis, however have always admired the Brat from the Tamiya guidebooks, and also and particularly, the frankly insanely awesome Frog (to my 9 year old eyes!).

So donor car kit for the Lancia Rally is in place (with a Brat and a Frog also now on their way because I just had to...looking forward to these...👀.) and ready to use as the base chassis. Have also ordered various other required components that will be required for this build  

Will post updates here with the build progress. Am really looking forward to this :) 


 

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I would have been nervous as well when cutting the shell but it is looking very good. I will follow this with interest. 

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Ok so have been progressing with this build, am super excited about it. Quite liking the ORV build and design/details.... a bit odd, I have to say, but in a nice way! At least not what I'm used to in terms of the builds I've completed (DT03, TT02B, Hornet, WT01, to name a few) . I will post on this aspect of the build so far in the near future.

 

However,  the current issue is this: I cannot find the original Lancia Rally wheels....anywhere. Current problem is trying to find a way to mount  front wheels and tyres. I obtained some Honda City Turbo wheels as a substitute to the Lancia Rally ones (sacrilege, I know), these apparently being the same part as on Opel Ascona / Audi Quattro Rally kits. MY basic issue is that I need to find a way to fix the front wheels to the the Brat/Subaru front axles. I have posted some extracts below from various manuals to add some explanation to the issue follow:. First is the Honda City Turbo front wheels installation manual extract. These show the primary parts I am working with,  F1 and K2, and the tyres: 

Lancia Project wheels

 

By comparison, this is the Brat front axle parts below.  These axles do not fit the part K2, as they're intended to be axle and ball bearing only, whilst the Honda City Turbo is a cross pin that passes through the axle and locks into K2 part. The Brat axle is too fat for the K2 part, i think being 4mm step screw trying to fit a 3mm aperture. 

 

Lancia Project wheels

 

By way of comparison with the original Lancia Rally, here is the front for the Lancia car: 

Lancia Project wheels

This is clearly a different piece of wheel to Asona / Honda, accepting a ball bearing in the wheel, and I do not know the axle shaft diameter, although this is somewhat academic as I don't have these wheels anyway. 

(Side comment / observation:  Isn't it fun tracking down scans of obscure, old manuals, and using them to make new creations? Geeky, but love it :) )

 

Here are the wheel / tyres I am working with from the Honda City Turbo, wheels first.  When looking at the bottom two wheels, the left is the inside of the rear (hex fitting), the right is the inside of the front, shown without the K2 part. The centre disc with holes is a potential key part of solving the problem, I just can't find a way to make it engage with any part of the axle or a ball bearing: 

 

Lancia Project

 

Wheels: 

Lancia Project

 

Fitted with tyres (just no way to fit to car currently :unsure:

 

Lancia Project

 

    I will keep persevering with finding a solution and post back soon, but if any one of you fine gentlemen/ladies have any experience with this issue, I'd appreciate if you could share :) 

 

Hopefully I'm just being stupid and the issue is easy to resolve. Thanks all. 

 

 

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You might have to find a modern 12mm hex equivalent, and use a front hex adapter (search for dt03 front hex adapter). 

Terry

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@ALEXKYRIAK Good to see you back with another cool build. If these wheels are dedicated to this build i have an idea. Get some flanged 1150 bearings (search 5x11x4 flanged on rcbearings.co.uk). Buy a 4.9mm reamer bit. Drill through the centre of the assembled wheel to 4.9 then press in the flanged bearings on each side. You now have a bearing fit front wheels. I don't know whether the offset or position of the bearings will work at this point, but spacing them out with some 5mm shims and washers should do it. Schumacher 5x7x0.4 shims are my go to for shimmibg next to bearings. Once you are away from the bearing face you can just use regular m4 washers. If you can fit a spacer inside the wheel between the bearings you will also be able to clamp it up tight removing slop whilst still having it spin freely. 

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Hi @ALEXKYRIAK, this is my solution for mounting Wheeler wheels on the 037
This are the parts you need for one wheel: a 8x22x7 bearing as on the original wheeler, if you have a lathe you can turn a spacer with those dimensions. Two 5x8 flanged bearings, a 8x5 metal bearing, 5 screws 2x6mm and the disc with the holes.

 

whe4.thumb.jpg.f9380fda23e3568e323e9be31afd7fdf.jpg


Insert the 5x8 flanged bearings into the 8x22x7 bearing from either side,

 

whe5.thumb.jpg.84eef833665719cf2c48fe9366c9d456.jpg

 

then insert the bearing assembly into the wheeler wheel

 

whe3.thumb.jpg.8b7a3bb647c4d9252ae375e671053b1a.jpg

 

and secure the disc with the holes  with the 2x6mm screws.

 

whe2.thumb.jpg.0a563688a33279cbfc50b411c564feb5.jpg


Slide the 5x8 metal bearing onto the lancias front wheel axle and mount the wheel with the nylon lock nut.

 

whe1.thumb.jpg.3601fabf518ecf42c5e82263bd516d1e.jpg


Job done.

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Careful!  Using bearing-in-bearing like that can tear a hole in the space-time continuum, believe me!

Terry

 

 

Brilliant solution BTW!

  • Haha 2

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@Frog Jumper - hilarious...! You should do a build around this concept using this as the main propulsion method.

@ThunderDragonCy thanks a lot mate, great suggestion. I got hold of some flanged bearings at the size you mentioned - never seen these things before, they're brilliant - and almost made a solution work with the wheels in question.

 I can get a way to make the fixings sort of work, but it's not exactly robust due to the shape and profile of the inside of the wheel. I had wondered if this simply was an axle length problem for a while, and considered putting in a different knuckle and axle.

@a.w.k. thank you so much for the detailed explanation this looks like the ticket! I was even drawing up so 22mm blocks to get cut - I didn't think you could get bearings at this size for RC cars, and definitely "bearing in bearing" is genius! Have ordered some and will give this a go. Interestingly the original Audi Quattro Rally manual just calls this a "large bearing", no indication of size as far as i can see. 

 

audi2

 

audi

 

 

Here is the Wheeler wheel in more detail:

Lancia project

 

This is the insert form the Honda City Kit K2 part. If I bored a hoel into this i think it would have split the plastic: 

Lancia project

 

K2 inserted to wheel:

Lancia project

 

So I can't use this insert, as it's not compatible with the Brat/Frog front knuckles / axle. My current solution will be to follow @a.w.k. solution as posted above.

 

Anyway, so here are some progress pics and comments. This is the current status of the build. Am having fun with this being my first time on an ORV chassis. Very interesting design solution on this one...! Very old school in every department. Love the shock design, fornt and rear, and the gear design and rhe rubber 'boots'. 

Lancia project

 

 

Lancia project

 

 

Lancia project

 

 

 

I decided to go with centred servo and steering - not vintage, I know, but was interested to try this mod. I used the AmPro components for the servo mount struts: 

Lancia Project

 

Lancia Project

 

 

To get the symmetric steering arms, I ordered some 1mm threaded rod, and cut the rod to size using the Dremel with steel cutter rotary disc. To get the measurements, I installed the servo and the hubs/knuckles, then measured the geometry. Servo ball stud to to steering knuckle ball stud was approx 75mm, so I cut the threaded rods to about 65mm lengths, so achieve a 47mm space between the ball cups. This has got the lengths into the right ball park, I can do the final adjust when the wheels are on. 

 

Lancia project

 

Lancia project

 

Lancia project

 

I may need to adjust the rod lengths once the suspension and shocks are fully complete and installed. Will fine tune this later if need be. 

 

 

As mentioned above, this is my first ORV. Loving the old school design. Front knuckles and hubs are very cool, as is the suspension arms. I am considering using an actual shock on the front arms, as opposed to the recessed spring and plunger. 

 

Lancia project2

 

Also really like the gearbox with metal side plates. Have read about the problems with this design in the ORV lineup of cars/buggies, and I toyed with the idea of the MIP ball diff kit for this build, but its' expensive and have read it's not necessary for a Brat. I did order one anyway, just won't use it in this car. Also love the rubber 'boots' over the rear axles. 

Lancia Project

 

Lancia Project

 

Anyway, the next update will likely be Round 8 of Me vs The Wheels Installation....  It's taken a while to figure these out and with the advice from the guys above hopefully I will have solved the front wheel assembly. Hoping the rears are a bit more simple..!  Then by that point the shock mods will be ready. For the shocks, I've ordered some damper mounts from the net that fit the Brat / Frog, but I also decided to make my own carbon fibre ones to variable geometry dimensions - these arrived super quick from Fiberlyte.  Will post all this development in the near future...! 

In other news, I have a Brat build running concurrently with this one (on a black chassis), and it's all making my itchy to finally get the Frog at some point soon...! :) 

 

 

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On 2/1/2020 at 8:13 PM, Frog Jumper said:

Careful!  Using bearing-in-bearing like that can tear a hole in the space-time continuum, believe me!

Terry

 

 

Brilliant solution BTW!

As far as i know those bearings are also used in another 80s thing, skateboards. So there already was a disturbance in the space time continuum when Tamiya used massive Skateboard bearings for their Willy cars,  maybe a bearing in a bearing creates a real time machine to travel back to the 80s....😎

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So the bearings arrived and the good news is I have test fitted the front wheels, all looks good... progress :) 

 

Lancia front wheels

 

As per @a.w.k. advice, I fitted the large bearing, with two bearings inside (luckily spacetime behaved itself). The large bearings are a) large and satisfyingly chunky feeling bit of kit and b) perfect fit for the wheels. Right to left: 8x22x7 bearing, two 5x8 flanged bearings, 5x8 bearing 

Lancia front wheels

 

Here fitted, right wheel complete with cover plate screwed in, left without plate yet screwed in. The cover plate comes with the wheels parts.

Lancia front wheels

 

Fitted the wheel perfectly. I used the black plastic washer cap from the Honda city turbo K parts tree, you can see it just behind the wheel nut. The outside of the wheel has a larger than normal hole, this cap fills it in and closes up against the bearing.  
 

Lancia front wheels

 

 

Lancia front wheels

 

So here we are with front wheels fitted. The steering rod lengths required no adjustment, they were magically perfect first time round 👌 

Next job is to fit the rears. Think there will be some fiddling here, potentially using hex extenders. Will post progress soon :) 

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So minor update: have now got the rears fitted...yay!

Lancia Project wheels Lancia Project wheels


The rear wheel inside profile is very deep. So I got hold of some rear 12mm x 15mm length aluminium hex extenders to fit it (in red of all colours... don’t ask...), also using a washer, and the K part washer plastic cap.

Lancia Project wheels

 

Lancia Project wheels

This Brat/Frog rear axle is very long but the crosspin position is pretty tight to the hub. I tried to find other axle pieces but nothing came up. I also started out with a 20mm hex extender  but realised petty quickly this extender was too long and the wheel nut did not have enough axle thread to engage with the wheel properly. Here is the 20mm in black for reference: 

Lancia Project wheels

 

So I think I have the rear wheels sorted for this car using the red 15mm extenders to accept the Honda City Turbo wheel set. 
 

This has probably been the most difficult car I’ve worked on for a while.. :) 
 

Lancia Project wheels

 

Now just awaiting the suspension parts, then it’s body fitting time....!

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Thanks Thunder, yes these extended socket bits came with the extenders I installed. The hole in the City Turbo wheel is too big for them so they wouldn’t have fitted, and I didn’t fancy having the nut stick out on this car (to keep the looks as original as possible).

I previously used some extenders on my WT01 build and as you say I had to drill out the aperture in the plastic wheel to make them work. Quite a novel bit of kit actually. 

Small pause on this Lancia build while I’m awaiting a few parts. Hopefully they’ll turn up soon so I can get cracking on the suspension. 

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Ok so an update to the project. This is the current status of this build:

Lancia Build


The parts for the front suspension finally arrived from HK and China (my thoughts and respect are with those affected there) and I could continue the next part of the build. 

First things first though, I had to remove a little bit of slop in the front wheel assemblies. It was bugging me. Slop is like an itch. I installed a 0.2mm and 0.1mm 5mm shim per axle to stop the wheel moving laterally. 

Lancia Build


Then next up was fitting the front shock mounts. Here I am experimenting with an aluminium shock mount:

Brat front shocks Brat front shocks


I decided to try  a somewhat crazy idea and fit Hornet rear shocks to the front of this Lancia build, so one delivery later from the magnificent Tamico and I had this lot sitting on my table:

Lancia Build


almost all of the parts required for rear hornet shocks.   I am building these without the Hornet ball socket at the bottom of the piston, and will use a standard CVA shock short base eyelet piece:

Lancia Build

 

Lancia Build


 

So with the aluminium shock mounts and the front shocks fitted, the chassis looks like this. Front shock length is unadjusted apart from the fact that there is a CVA eyelet on the base of the shock.  

Lancia shocks

 

Lancia shocks


I mounted the shocks themselves using an 8mm or 10mm spacer, one at top and one at bottom of shock:

Lancia shocks front

 

Lancia Build

 

Lancia Build

 

Lancia shock

 

I then tentatively rested the body onto the chassis. I will need to work out how to fit the body posts to the shell, which I will look into next.

A few things about the build at this juncture make me nervous 1) it feels like the wheels of the Honda City Turbo appears that they may be slightly small than the original Rally Lancia ones, in terms of diameter. When I rest the shell in the chassis something doesn’t look the same as the photos of the lancia original.

And 2) I will need to play with these Hornet Rear shocks slightly as the spring appears to not be stiff enough  to return the nose of the car back up to full ride height. I also need to check the fixing method to ensure the screws and spacers are not too tight so as to create a restrictive friction on the free rotation of the shock base and head to the arms and damper mounts. 
 

Lancia Build

 

Lancia Build

 

It’s been a tricky build so far but well worth it, especially now the shocks and body are fitted and I can see how it might be shaping up...! More to follow :) 

 

 

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Looks great Alex. I have had a look at some pictures and i think the size of the wheels looks same as the original from what i can see in photos. 

For the front dampers, a 5mm ball nut will let you mount the bottom shocks mounts. You just need a longer screw. The head shouldn't interfere with the shock end if it's that small. If they are struggling to return, try emptying the shocks of oil and seeing if you have the same issue. If it holds up without oil then the springs are stiff enough, you just need really light oil. If it still sags alot then you will need some stiffer springs. 

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