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DGunn1

UK group buy - TBG and MCI?

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Hi All,

I've been slowly amassing all the parts to built from NOS or from used the kits I couldn't afford as a kid, however like many have hit a roadblock with body shells and stickers.

Would any UK members be interested in a group purchase from the above 2 companies, splitting the handling and customs charges, and where applicable the shipping fees accordingly (mci free shipping above $50)?

 

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Good idea but sadly for me a day too late:( It might be worth setting something up though. You might save on shipping fees but as TBG state on their website they will not undevalue or declare as a gift so the duty will always be a % of the overall total. Having said that duty I beleive is also calculated on shipping so if you got free shipping you would save a little.

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I wouldn't expect them to undervalue the order, and to be honest I'd rather have the insurance for the correct value. 

But if the orders big enough, could  potentially make a small saving on each shell, never know till we ask.

Will definitely save by splitting shipping, import duty and RM handling fees vs individual orders though

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I have a few shells on my list to buy from them... Would be interested potentially depending on when you're doing. 

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1 minute ago, SuperChamp82 said:

Bought from both + unfortunately neither worth the effort 

So its no good work they did or did you have too high expectations?

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On an ethical level, I refuse to condone or support TBG , MCI or similar.

They have zero authority (correct me if I am wrong) to produce counterfeit Tamiya goods and sell them for profit. If they ever get Tamiya's approval, I will have no issue with them doing what they do. But as it stands right now, their business model is based on "Let’s do what we can get away with!".

And sadly, this forum - which owes it's very existence to the success, integrity, quality and tradition of the Tamiya family company... does nothing to deter visitors from chatting about and hyping these products. Same with the Chinese Bruiser clone. And I have plenty of respect for @TWINSET and @netsmithUK and this website but... I think its a mistake to have hundreds of posts here supporting and discussing commercial Tamiya counterfeits  

And to answer the inevitable cries of "But I can't find the parts I want..." . Actually, you can. Most parts, including bodies and decals, can be found on eBay or elsewhere with patience, and some saving of your pennies. I've never been wealthy in my entire life - far from it :D Yet have saved and waited and collected vintage Tamiya bits for nearly 30 years, since the early 1990s. One time when I was 16, I was so broke that I swapped 2 old guitars for a near unrestorable Hotshot... but I still got the car working 😆

It's part of the challenge of vintage R/C restoration. The world simply does not owe anyone an easy/cheap path to achieving the restoration of a rare, historic R/C car. Nor any other rare historic toy or collectible.

Sorry for the rant. But I will will always speak from the heart on this one. 👍

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re: patent issues

IANAL and all that, but as far as I know Japanese patent is for 20 years. After that the idea/design become public domain. That's a good thing - it allows continued use when a product is orphaned and gives the originator 20 years to recoup their investment and generate profit. I am under the impression that TBG only produces bodies outside the 20 year window.

re: the original post

MCI I have no experience with.

TBG bodies aren't perfect but they're good to decent depending on the model. They can miss fine details and vary a bit at openings (like for the mechanical speed control resistor) or deep indentations (thundershot front mount). To date I've purchased several thundershot bodies, as well as a Marui Ninja and Hirobo Alien.

 

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yeah Japanese patent is 20 yrs. Having produce artwork myself, I understand where @Hibernaculum is coming from, but after patent and copyright expire, I think it should be a free for all. Don't get me wrong, an artist or company should be given exclusive use for their designs, but only up to a point. After that it should be free for all, however it should be clear that you are not getting an original either. Looking at history, this as this is how art and creativity evolves, just look at the history of stories like Cinderella, and without that copying we would be left with less diverse stories.

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I have purchased TBG bodies in the past, but I found them to be very thin in places, and I don't like the fact that to make the moulding process easier for themselves, they change some of the details of the original. The most obvious example being the rear bumper on the Celica GrB, they basically made the back of the shell, flat which looks awful. 

I would rather wait for a good original to come along.

J

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As far as patenting is concerned surely tamiya has no rights over the body shapes of "real" cars, the escort Cosworth for example. The escort from TBG is pretty bad compared to the tamiya body but tamiya don't own that body design. 

Buggies may well be a different matter. 

Same for Mci racing, tamiya don't own the race liveries. 

If there's a group buy from TBG there is still import duty to pay it just means each party pays the same 20% duty fee but only one handling fee, then the recipient of the bodies has to package up the others and send separately costing???? each! 

Nice idea but it'll probably cost just as much if not more than a individual purchase. 

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As a business owner i understand the ruinous cost of old stock amd exploding numbers of different stock items. I genuinely believe if Tamiya wanted to do something about this they would have. As far as i am concerned TBG are doing them a favour producing small numbers of old shells that would rapidly bleed tamiya dry of cash if they had to produce all of them and keep tuem in stock forever. TBG don't claim to be as good as the real thing, and Tamiya would be long gone if - as i direct example - they had to stock Thunder Dragon bodyshells for 25 years just waiting for some guy in Yorkshire to want to freshen up his beloved but battered childhood toy. Yes, original shells come along every once in a while, but their rarity combined with age and fragility means they are completely out of the question for something who wanta to use and enjoy their car instead of look at it on a shelf. And as a direct result of buying a TBG bodyshell i have a load of money on genuine tamiya parts to keep my car running, because the bodyshell isn't valueable enough to stop me doing that. It's not like Tamiya are making any more money out of genuine shells. They made a few bucks long ago when some guy stashed it and is now making more money on it than tamiya ever did. Tgese arguments only make sense if it was tamiya making the big money on rare shells, but they aren't. 

If this isn't too derailed, i am in for a Saint Dragon body and some custom colour graphics.

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1 minute ago, graemevw said:

No import fees from mci ;)

True

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9 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

On an ethical level, I refuse to condone or support TBG , MCI or similar.

They have zero authority (correct me if I am wrong) to produce counterfeit Tamiya goods and sell them for profit. If they ever get Tamiya's approval, I will have no issue with them doing what they do. But as it stands right now, their business model is based on "Let’s do what we can get away with!".

And sadly, this forum - which owes it's very existence to the success, integrity, quality and tradition of the Tamiya family company... does nothing to deter visitors from chatting about and hyping these products. Same with the Chinese Bruiser clone. And I have plenty of respect for @TWINSET and @netsmithUK and this website but... I think its a mistake to have hundreds of posts here supporting and discussing commercial Tamiya counterfeits  

And to answer the inevitable cries of "But I can't find the parts I want..." . Actually, you can. Most parts, including bodies and decals, can be found on eBay or elsewhere with patience, and some saving of your pennies. I've never been wealthy in my entire life - far from it :D Yet have saved and waited and collected vintage Tamiya bits for nearly 30 years, since the early 1990s. One time when I was 16, I was so broke that I swapped 2 old guitars for a near unrestorable Hotshot... but I still got the car working 😆

It's part of the challenge of vintage R/C restoration. The world simply does not owe anyone an easy/cheap path to achieving the restoration of a rare, historic R/C car. Nor any other rare historic toy or collectible.

Sorry for the rant. But I will will always speak from the heart on this one. 👍

But those very sellers on eBay are ripping people off for original bodies and decals.  It's not like tamiya still make them either so their profits are not being eaten into.  If tamiya continued to support cars for a decent length of time we wouldn't need the likes of MCI.  If we take the egress, it's still available but they don't produce some spares at all, eg.  Hicaps etc. 

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16 hours ago, Ann3x said:

I have a few shells on my list to buy from them... Would be interested potentially depending on when you're doing. 

 

7 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

As a business owner i understand the ruinous cost of old stock amd exploding numbers of different stock items. I genuinely believe if Tamiya wanted to do something about this they would have. As far as i am concerned TBG are doing them a favour producing small numbers of old shells that would rapidly bleed tamiya dry of cash if they had to produce all of them and keep tuem in stock forever. TBG don't claim to be as good as the real thing, and Tamiya would be long gone if - as i direct example - they had to stock Thunder Dragon bodyshells for 25 years just waiting for some guy in Yorkshire to want to freshen up his beloved but battered childhood toy. Yes, original shells come along every once in a while, but their rarity combined with age and fragility means they are completely out of the question for something who wanta to use and enjoy their car instead of look at it on a shelf. And as a direct result of buying a TBG bodyshell i have a load of money on genuine tamiya parts to keep my car running, because the bodyshell isn't valueable enough to stop me doing that. It's not like Tamiya are making any more money out of genuine shells. They made a few bucks long ago when some guy stashed it and is now making more money on it than tamiya ever did. Tgese arguments only make sense if it was tamiya making the big money on rare shells, but they aren't. 

If this isn't too derailed, i am in for a Saint Dragon body and some custom colour graphics.

Hi all,

I've been in touch with Trish at TBG enquiring whether a bulk order would qualify for a discount, they are willing but would like to know numbers and what body shells we are interested in.

I've made a note of the Saint Dragon, but please all let me know what your interested in and I'll get a quote.

If we get as far as concluding an order I'm sure we can find some way of minimising onward postage costs so we all make some saving!

So things don't get lost in comms, please feel free to mail direct.

Dave

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Count me in,

I have an agreed discount with TBG as I supplied a part for them to copy (which destroys the original) I have used many of their shells and will again. I am happy to contact Trish and ask if they will apply my discount to the entire order if you wish?

I need a Dirt Thrasher body and wing and decals as well.

If this works and makes number look good i may go for a 2011 Avante shell, undertray and decals.

 

 

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6 hours ago, slimleeroy said:

But those very sellers on eBay are ripping people off for original bodies and decals.  It's not like tamiya still make them either so their profits are not being eaten into.  If tamiya continued to support cars for a decent length of time we wouldn't need the likes of MCI.  If we take the egress, it's still available but they don't produce some spares at all, eg.  Hicaps etc. 

1) Not all sellers are ripping you off. Some do, but not all. 
I sold a mint, sealed NIB vintage Grasshopper kit a week or so ago, for exactly half the price or less than other NIB vintage Grasshopper kits on eBay. That and a vintage Hornet kit I listed, each sold within 24hrs as I just listed them for what I felt they were reasonably worth - not a speculative price.

Nothing special about me. There are plenty of sellers like me. 
 

2) “It’s not like Tamiya still make them”

It took me 5 mins to see that TBG are selling Boomerang lexan bodies on eBay, while authentic Tamiya remake Boomerang lexan bodies are available from Timetunnelmodels.com and others. 
 

I bet there are dozens of other examples. 

3) “If Tamiya continued to support cars for a decent length of time...”

So the dozens upon dozens of entire kit remakes Tamiya has issued over the past 15 years, don’t count as “supporting cars for a decent length of time?”

4) “Patents in Japan last 20 years”

So Tamiya has no further copyright or license over even the Tamiya products they have remade in the past 15 years? I find that difficult to believe.

And anybody on earth can clone and sell with impunity, any product made in Japan so long as it’s past the magic 20 year age mark? I find that impossible to believe. 

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13 hours ago, svenb said:

As far as patenting is concerned surely tamiya has no rights over the body shapes of "real" cars, the escort Cosworth for example. The escort from TBG is pretty bad compared to the tamiya body but tamiya don't own that body design. 

Same for Mci racing, tamiya don't own the race liveries. 

For the Escort, the copyright is owned by Ford and Tamiya are granted a licence to produce the models (you'll notice "Officially licensed product" stickers on the more recent Escort WRC kits) For this there will be a fee they pay.

Same thing with the liveries, licensing to the teams, sponsors etc. This is why certain logos are missing on the re-re cars (no Shell on the Promarkt and Diebels Mercedes for example) - no licence granted.

TBG and MCI are producing items without paying these fees so there's legal issues there, regardless of any Japanese copyright laws.

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1 hour ago, Truck Norris said:

For the Escort, the copyright is owned by Ford and Tamiya are granted a licence to produce the models (you'll notice "Officially licensed product" stickers on the more recent Escort WRC kits) For this there will be a fee they pay.

Same thing with the liveries, licensing to the teams, sponsors etc. This is why certain logos are missing on the re-re cars (no Shell on the Promarkt and Diebels Mercedes for example) - no licence granted.

TBG and MCI are producing items without paying these fees so there's legal issues there, regardless of any Japanese copyright laws.

That's my point, Ford own the rights to the Escort shape not Tamiya! 

Same goes with any logo or sponsor be it Pepsi, Castrol or Michelin. 

In a ideal world everyone would play by the rules but us tamiya addicts need our fix and if it means a wee bit of rule bending then so be it👍

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8 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

1) Not all sellers are ripping you off. Some do, but not all. 
I sold a mint, sealed NIB vintage Grasshopper kit a week or so ago, for exactly half the price or less than other NIB vintage Grasshopper kits on eBay. That and a vintage Hornet kit I listed, each sold within 24hrs as I just listed them for what I felt they were reasonably worth - not a speculative price.

Nothing special about me. There are plenty of sellers like me. 
 

2) “It’s not like Tamiya still make them”

It took me 5 mins to see that TBG are selling Boomerang lexan bodies on eBay, while authentic Tamiya remake Boomerang lexan bodies are available from Timetunnelmodels.com and others. 
 

I bet there are dozens of other examples. 

3) “If Tamiya continued to support cars for a decent length of time...”

So the dozens upon dozens of entire kit remakes Tamiya has issued over the past 15 years, don’t count as “supporting cars for a decent length of time?”

4) “Patents in Japan last 20 years”

So Tamiya has no further copyright or license over even the Tamiya products they have remade in the past 15 years? I find that difficult to believe.

And anybody on earth can clone and sell with impunity, any product made in Japan so long as it’s past the magic 20 year age mark? I find that impossible to believe. 

I agree with all you are saying however the demand from consumers like us all massively outweighs what tamiya provide. I love tamiya they are fantastic but sometimes repro is the only way we can restore our cars.

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15 minutes ago, slimleeroy said:

I agree with all you are saying however the demand from consumers like us all massively outweighs what tamiya provide. I love tamiya they are fantastic but sometimes repro is the only way we can restore our cars.

That's nice of you to say.

I guess at the core of everything I am saying though, is that I feel we need to appreciate the Tamiya company, and what it stands for, a bit more than we do. And consider what it means to respect it's products and it's history.

Tamiya is not just another ordinary company listed on the stock exchange and using slaves to manufacture mediocre products at the lowest possible price, to be sold at the highest possible price. Tamiya is still a family company. A company of craftsmen. And the man who made it what it is today, is still alive and involved in the company. Shunsaku Tamiya is now 85 years of age.

Do you know how many other great companies like that, which were founded by true enthusiasts and craftsmen, are still left in the world? Not many. And the nature of business tends to mean that most companies eventually lose what made them great - as they change hands and devolve into venture capital profit machines.

Most of the other great R/C companies that existed during the "vintage" R/C era are also now well and truly different or have changed ownership from what they originally were. But not Tamiya. Tamiya is also the last company that manufactures any R/C cars at all, in Japan.

Oh sure, we all say we appreciate and love Tamiya to some extent... and we think the proof is the fact we own some R/C cars and have spent some money on their products. But I think we owe a little gratitude beyond that. I think we should be a little grateful to have been alive when a company like Tamiya existed, and be grateful to have been children (or adults) who were able to enjoy such fine products during their heyday.

We seem to think that anything we need or want should be obtainable at the cheapest price and by whatever means we like - such as repro or counterfeit goods. Because we feel entitled to getting whatever we want. But when you really consider what Tamiya did for hobbies and for the artform of modeling, that just seems selfish and even destructive. You can be as cynical as you like about Tamiya's current offerings and what you don't like about them (I have voiced my opinions on this many times), or about the transactional nature of what Tamiya products you buy and how much they cost. But despite all of that, I believe we should already remember the historical significance of what is, in effect, an artisanal company that began from nothing and honed it's craft to a fanatical degree - equal to the finest in any other industry. And ultimately defined and popularized a wonderful hobby that forms the very reason why this forum, this website, my website, my collection, your collection and all the stuff we love - exists at all.

So I leave you with these quotes from the UK's "Car" Magazine back in 2009, when motoring journalist Nick Trott met and interviewed Shunsaku Tamiya at the Nuremburg Toy Fair...

"Shunsaku Tamiya taught me how a differential works. I learnt about suspension from him and why it is important to centralize mass in a case. He educated me in the ways of chassis set-up, lightweight materials and complex transmission systems and he did it all for a modest fee paid mostly out of my pocket money."

"Shunsaku Tamiya has lived an extraordinary life but remains deeply humble. He avoids eye contact with a small bow when I explained how his products contributed to a happy childhood (and also my obsession with cars) and whispers a quiet thank you at my embarrassingly gushing praise."

"Mr Tamiya spent a huge portion of his life traveling all over the world taking tens of thousands of photos and making numerous measurements of military vehicles, racing and road cars, and aircraft. 'I traveled such a long way that I couldn't afford to make any mistakes with the research - sometimes I make a dark room in a hotel bathroom, London water was not very good...'"

"One trip changed the course of the Tamiya Model Company forever. Having asked Fumito Taki to migrate the knowledge he gained from building radio controlled tanks into Tamiya's first radio controlled car, he tasked Taki-san with a new project inspired by witnessing the Baja races while visiting Southern California and Mexico. The subsequent 'Rough Rider' off road battery powered radio controlled car shocked the hobby industry with it's performance and engineering integrity - such were the incredible tolerances of the metal parts, the car actually performed better after a month or two of operation. It actually needed running in."

"Despite Shunsaku Tamiya's wealth, he likes nothing more than to immerse himself in the world of models. Just before the show ends, I notice him sitting on his own, for once not surrounded by assistants whispering in his ear. Quietly he gets up, walks off the stand and disappears into the heart of this vast fair. I follow him for a while as he makes his way around the show carefully inspecting other products. Not once is he recognized...

It is hard to think of Shunsaku Tamiya's contemporary in the car industry - or in any industry for that matter. The only people I can compare him with, are dead - Leo Fender, Enzo Ferrari, Ferdinand Porsche; artists, craftsmen and businessmen all. He belongs to another realm, one which we may never see again."

 

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9 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

...

So Tamiya has no further copyright or license over even the Tamiya products they have remade in the past 15 years? I find that difficult to believe.

And anybody on earth can clone and sell with impunity, any product made in Japan so long as it’s past the magic 20 year age mark? I find that impossible to believe. 

Well, there are 3 concepts, Trademarks, Copyright and Patents. Both copyrights and patents expire and cannot be renewed, except for Trademarks which can be renewed. Although trademarks can be diluted.

So, yes, exactly that and this is exactly how the patent system and copyright is by and large designed to work. Mind you, through great lobbying on companies like Disney, copyright is a lot longer than patents in the US. Under the initial system in the US, Mickey Mouse would be in the public domain by now. Copyright is now 70 yrs after the death of the creator,  also in Australia and Japan too as we follow the US. Versus 20 years for patents.

 Some examples I can think of are:

- triniton monitors. I think it was Fujistu who had the patent on them, and for many years they were the most expensive TVs you could buy as they were the best, especially in the 80s and early 90s. Once their patent expired, anybody could copy them, and so the price came right down, a lot. Not that is mattered a whole lot anyway, as about this time LCDs started to take off.

- drugs, once a drug patent has expired (20 yr, but they can lose a lot of drug trial time in that), much cheaper, generic drugs will surface. Ever gone to the pharmacy and been offered a generic version? This is why they can do that. You'll also see drug companies slightly modify a drug and re-patent it. The history of headache tablets and patents is an interesting read.

BUT in all those cases, while they can copy the product, they can't sell or market it as the original product. So the Bruiser clone, it can look and act in a similar manner, but it can't be marketed as a Bruiser clone.

There are also special exemptions. Non-genuine replacement parts for cars is one example as is fair use, but I doubt the RC clones would be covered by either.

 

And like you, I very much enjoy and appreciate Tamiya and 90 percent of my collection is Tamiya, with lots of re-re's, new parts, Tamiya paints and model kits etc. And I do think the laws of copyright and patents is important as it gives businesses and individuals protection to make money from their endeavours. Yet I like that it is timed, as it also forces eventual development, so a company can't rely solely on past products. Is the system perfect, I don't think so, but I don't think it's too bad overall.

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4 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

That's nice of you to say.

I guess at the core of everything I am saying though, is that I feel we need to appreciate the Tamiya company, and what it stands for, a bit more than we do. And consider what it means to respect it's products and it's history.

Tamiya is not just another ordinary company listed on the stock exchange and using slaves to manufacture mediocre products at the lowest possible price, to be sold at the highest possible price. Tamiya is still a family company. A company of craftsmen. And the man who made it what it is today, is still alive and involved in the company. Shunsaku Tamiya is now 85 years of age.

Do you know how many other great companies like that, which were founded by true enthusiasts and craftsmen, are still left in the world? Not many. And the nature of business tends to mean that most companies eventually lose what made them great - as they change hands and devolve into venture capital profit machines.

Most of the other great R/C companies that existed during the "vintage" R/C era are also now well and truly different or have changed ownership from what they originally were. But not Tamiya. Tamiya is also the last company that manufactures any R/C cars at all, in Japan.

Oh sure, we all say we appreciate and love Tamiya to some extent... and we think the proof is the fact we own some R/C cars and have spent some money on their products. But I think we owe a little gratitude beyond that. I think we should be a little grateful to have been alive when a company like Tamiya existed, and be grateful to have been children (or adults) who were able to enjoy such fine products during their heyday.

We seem to think that anything we need or want should be obtainable at the cheapest price and by whatever means we like - such as repro or counterfeit goods. Because we feel entitled to getting whatever we want. But when you really consider what Tamiya did for hobbies and for the artform of modeling, that just seems selfish and even destructive. You can be as cynical as you like about Tamiya's current offerings and what you don't like about them (I have voiced my opinions on this many times), or about the transactional nature of what Tamiya products you buy and how much they cost. But despite all of that, I believe we should already remember the historical significance of what is, in effect, an artisanal company that began from nothing and honed it's craft to a fanatical degree - equal to the finest in any other industry. And ultimately defined and popularized a wonderful hobby that forms the very reason why this forum, this website, my website, my collection, your collection and all the stuff we love - exists at all.

So I leave you with these quotes from the UK's "Car" Magazine back in 2009, when motoring journalist Nick Trott met and interviewed Shunsaku Tamiya at the Nuremburg Toy Fair...

"Shunsaku Tamiya taught me how a differential works. I learnt about suspension from him and why it is important to centralize mass in a case. He educated me in the ways of chassis set-up, lightweight materials and complex transmission systems and he did it all for a modest fee paid mostly out of my pocket money."

"Shunsaku Tamiya has lived an extraordinary life but remains deeply humble. He avoids eye contact with a small bow when I explained how his products contributed to a happy childhood (and also my obsession with cars) and whispers a quiet thank you at my embarrassingly gushing praise."

"Mr Tamiya spent a huge portion of his life traveling all over the world taking tens of thousands of photos and making numerous measurements of military vehicles, racing and road cars, and aircraft. 'I traveled such a long way that I couldn't afford to make any mistakes with the research - sometimes I make a dark room in a hotel bathroom, London water was not very good...'"

"One trip changed the course of the Tamiya Model Company forever. Having asked Fumito Taki to migrate the knowledge he gained from building radio controlled tanks into Tamiya's first radio controlled car, he tasked Taki-san with a new project inspired by witnessing the Baja races while visiting Southern California and Mexico. The subsequent 'Rough Rider' off road battery powered radio controlled car shocked the hobby industry with it's performance and engineering integrity - such were the incredible tolerances of the metal parts, the car actually performed better after a month or two of operation. It actually needed running in."

"Despite Shunsaku Tamiya's wealth, he likes nothing more than to immerse himself in the world of models. Just before the show ends, I notice him sitting on his own, for once not surrounded by assistants whispering in his ear. Quietly he gets up, walks off the stand and disappears into the heart of this vast fair. I follow him for a while as he makes his way around the show carefully inspecting other products. Not once is he recognized...

It is hard to think of Shunsaku Tamiya's contemporary in the car industry - or in any industry for that matter. The only people I can compare him with, are dead - Leo Fender, Enzo Ferrari, Ferdinand Porsche; artists, craftsmen and businessmen all. He belongs to another realm, one which we may never see again."

 

Can't argue with all that mate. 👍

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