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UK group buy - TBG and MCI?

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Just to chime in, won t comment on the tbg rights or no rights theme (I think everyone is entitled To their opinion and there are good arguments on both sides) 

I just wanted to share my récent feeling about Mci. I recently (last week) received 3 sets of schumacher repro decals (bosscat, fireblade and cougar 2000) and after playing a premium for gloss anti uv finish I was very dissapointed with them. The colours are very off and the print is not very fine and rather "pixelated" on some decals. I m Lucky enough to have some original decals to compare with and they are very different when put side to side.  Perhaps its just bad luck and perhaps they are not up To scratch on schumacher decals. (I only ever use original decals on my.tamiya collection) 

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15 minutes ago, t3garett said:

Just to chime in, won t comment on the tbg rights or no rights theme (I think everyone is entitled To their opinion and there are good arguments on both sides) 

I just wanted to share my récent feeling about Mci. I recently (last week) received 3 sets of schumacher repro decals (bosscat, fireblade and cougar 2000) and after playing a premium for gloss anti uv finish I was very dissapointed with them. The colours are very off and the print is not very fine and rather "pixelated" on some decals. I m Lucky enough to have some original decals to compare with and they are very different when put side to side.  Perhaps its just bad luck and perhaps they are not up To scratch on schumacher decals. (I only ever use original decals on my.tamiya collection) 

When I've had problems with mci I've just emailed them and they've been super helpful. 

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I ll have to try. I was that dissapointed that I just thought "right Well I won t try repro decals again" and left it at that. 

Did they manage to do better decals for you then ?

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21 hours ago, t3garett said:

I ll have to try. I was that dissapointed that I just thought "right Well I won t try repro decals again" and left it at that. 

Did they manage to do better decals for you then ?

When I had an issue it was with a misprint. They sent a new set no questions asked which was much better. At various times Ive also has issues with missing decals (like one specific item that they missed for some reason). Think it was a Vanquish set. Full refund again no questions asked.

Despite the argument about their legality or whether we (the vintage community) should or should not support. They are good guys.

Re the discussion about whether we should or shouldnt support them.

I have no particular desire to buy repro decals. If Tamiya stocked out of print decals I would 100% buy from them. They do not, they do not support the vintage community in a way that they EASILY could (decals are flat, they take no stock space....). As such I am very glad that companies like MCI / TBG exist as they are supplying consumables that would otherwise relegate vintage buggies to either scrap heap cosmetics OR shelfers.

Whenever Tamiya re-re a shell or a decal set I buy but its fairly clear that they dont do this to support vintage runners but to milk collectors due to the artificially limited production runs. As such ill buy from companies who do their part in supporting the scene. Being purist about this is elitism, nothing more, nothing less.

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Is there a difference between Tamiya’s current sales and anything they’ve discontinued ?

Fully agree with IP views and respecting a fine family business re their ongoing  revenue 

So reproducing their current lines w/o paying royalties is frankly theft dressed up as economy 

That said, I do struggle slightly if applying the same logic to anyone making vintage decals that Tamiya no longer bother with  ?

Isnt that just keeping Tamiya’s legacy alive + affordable vs highly priced period originals ?

It’s not like Tamiya get royalties on vintage resale values for decals they made 30 years ago 🤔

And their apparent lack of interest in taking offenders to task may suggest they agree ...

PS I misread the question re my previous reply. MCI decals are v good - and Nath is a gent. HPI bodyshells are a mixed bag ...

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On 1/27/2020 at 5:05 AM, Hibernaculum said:

On an ethical level, I refuse to condone or support TBG , MCI or similar.

They have zero authority (correct me if I am wrong) to produce counterfeit Tamiya goods and sell them for profit. If they ever get Tamiya's approval, I will have no issue with them doing what they do. But as it stands right now, their business model is based on "Let’s do what we can get away with!".

And sadly, this forum - which owes it's very existence to the success, integrity, quality and tradition of the Tamiya family company... does nothing to deter visitors from chatting about and hyping these products. Same with the Chinese Bruiser clone. And I have plenty of respect for @TWINSET and @netsmithUK and this website but... I think its a mistake to have hundreds of posts here supporting and discussing commercial Tamiya counterfeits  

And to answer the inevitable cries of "But I can't find the parts I want..." . Actually, you can. Most parts, including bodies and decals, can be found on eBay or elsewhere with patience, and some saving of your pennies. I've never been wealthy in my entire life - far from it :D Yet have saved and waited and collected vintage Tamiya bits for nearly 30 years, since the early 1990s. One time when I was 16, I was so broke that I swapped 2 old guitars for a near unrestorable Hotshot... but I still got the car working 😆

It's part of the challenge of vintage R/C restoration. The world simply does not owe anyone an easy/cheap path to achieving the restoration of a rare, historic R/C car. Nor any other rare historic toy or collectible.

Sorry for the rant. But I will will always speak from the heart on this one. 👍

That’s a tricky one. We also have Penguin in the UK who does repro shells. 

If the likes of Tamiya kept producing spares you wouldn’t get people making counterfeit goods - they only have themselves to blame.

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On 1/31/2020 at 8:29 AM, Avante2001R said:

If the likes of Tamiya kept producing spares you wouldn’t get people making counterfeit goods - they only have themselves to blame.

So just on that note... it sounds like you’re saying: that any owner of IP has an obligation to manufacture and sell their goods in perpetuity. Or else they only have “themselves to blame” - because we the public have a right to buy whatever we want whenever we want, and products should always be available.

(I’m just clarifying the boundaries of this theory, so correct me if I’m wrong)

So that means there are 2 broad approaches companies can take;

1) Manufacture the catalogue of products/remakes they want to + take reasonable steps to block counterfeits + encourage their customers to support their intellectual property.

2) Manufacture essentially everything they have ever manufactured, forever. As a means to deter counterfeiting.

Can anyone think of a company that does #2?

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On 1/30/2020 at 7:16 PM, Ann3x said:

If Tamiya stocked out of print decals I would 100% buy from them. They do not, they do not support the vintage community in a way that they EASILY could (decals are flat, they take no stock space....).

It's not quite that simple. Tamiya's stickers aren't just run off a printer digitally like MCI's, they are done with a process called "screen printing" which gives the best possible results (especially with white inks) but requires machinery set up with specific stencils. It's not such a simple process to then switch to a different setup to print other sheets.

Tamiya will likely have their machines run at capacity producing stickers for currently available models. It's not economically viable to either have extra machines to print small runs of older sheets, or to constantly be changing the setup to make them.

Same story with bodies - a set amount of injection moulding machines which will all be employed to maintain current production capacity.

Tamiya aren't stupid, and if it made economic sense to continue to produce the older stickers and bodies they would do so.

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While this thread seems a bit derailed, there is good debate here. I can see both sides. It might be unrealistic to expect Tamiya to keep consumables like bodies and decals available for discontinued models. On the other hand, unlike the Bruiser copy, reproducing decals Tamiya no longer bothers to carry (nor should be expected to) isn't taking money out of their pockets.

There's also the money issue. Patience in waiting for old NOS examples to show up for sale is one thing, but they will most times be more expensive. We all come from different economic backgrounds, but I can tell you, life on the lower end is tough. When wages a flat stagnant and EVERYTHING constantly goes up in price, every dime counts. Our grocery bill alone constantly, steadily goes up and I get no cost of living raises. Its not just about being patient and saving. Even if say, $65 was saved up and spent on a carefully located set of NOS decals for a runner, just how would I feel when they got trashed in a errant rollover? 

So, do I give up the hobby or plug forward with more affordable reproduction items that aren't undercutting or competing with like parts from Tamiya? I'm not saying there's a right or wrong here and I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything. I'm just saying when you're less fortunate, you find a way to get it done. Immensely sorry if the previous statements offended anyone. Its merely my opinion. 

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Not offended at all mate. All these opinions are valid. 👍 And I can totally sympathise with tight budgets too (though I’d also never claim I haven’t been luckier than most people, in a lot of ways).

Having said all that, there’s definitely a line across our expectations in life - beyond which entitlement can become an issue. 🤔

eg. 
Do I think it’s reasonable to believe that every owner of a Tamiya should be able afford to buy spare parts to keep it running for many years? Oh yes, I totally think that is pretty reasonable. 
 

Do I think it’s reasonable to believe that every person who wants to own a Tamiya Bruiser should be able to afford to buy one? No I don’t think that’s reasonable at all.

The Bruiser is one of the Rolls Royces of Tamiya RC. I don’t believe everyone should feel entitled to get one just because they want one. Anymore than I think they should feel entitled to a top of the line sofa/jacket/shoes/watch/boat/lawnmower/house or anything else in life, just because they want it.

Which is why I’d plainly disagree on ethical grounds with anyone who buys the chinese Bruiser using the excuse that they want one but ”can’t afford the Tamiya Bruiser”. It’s an illegal clone, it damages a company you may purport to love and that probably founded your love of RC, and it’s plainly unethical to buy it. Plus, the world simply doesn’t owe anyone a Bruiser. 

But sadly, ethics still go out the window when it comes to a lot of consumerism. A lot more people are more enlightened these days around environmental concerns with consumerism. But - I think we should also question the ethics of the companies we support. Both from an environmental standpoint, but also a creative, artistic and business standpoint.

Every dollar we spend goes toward someone’s harbour yacht.
 

Whether Shunsaku Tamiya has a yacht, or just a rocking chair, well, based on everything I know about him and what he’s done in his life I think he’s earned either. Whereas some greedy counterfeiting hobby business in China that’s actively cloning his work, and probably the work of others too, most definitely has not earned a donation from me. 

H.

(Fun fact: I own zero Bruisers myself of any variety 😄 So - don’t anybody think I’m writing down to you from some high perch, atop a large stack of NIB vintage Bruiser kits....)

(Fun fact 2: The perch is actually carefully positioned on a high stack of NOS vintage Sand Scorcher kits - all with black bumpers. Totally different).

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10 hours ago, Truck Norris said:

Tamiya aren't stupid, and if it made economic sense to continue to produce the older stickers and bodies they would do so.

Precisely @Truck Norris

11 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

o that means there are 2 broad approaches companies can take;

1) Manufacture the catalogue of products/remakes they want to + take reasonable steps to block counterfeits + encourage their customers to support their intellectual property.

2) Manufacture essentially everything they have ever manufactured, forever. As a means to deter counterfeiting.

Can anyone think of a company that does #2?

Agree @Hibernaculum but if it doesn’t make economic sense to produce old decals / shells, is there a third route companies can take ?

It costs a vast amount of money to maintain + enforce old IP these days - and the protection companies get in return is increasingly narrowing / getting shorter 

So even having the right to produce old bits has a fierce / up front headwind before we even get to@Truck Norris point re the economics of setting up production lines  

That may mean Tamiya simply don’t bother - which, in practice, seems to be their current thinking ?

And, if that’s true, it makes repro inevitable - and, in some cases, the only way vintage kit can survive

Or, to put it another way, is repro Tamiya’s gift to we oldies who love, run and hoard their kit from our childhood - and actually keep a legacy they can still trade on alive ?

Bruiser clone rip offs ? Def not - it’s still a current model + blatant theft 

MCI making 1981 Hi Lux decals that Tamiya no longer bother with - fine with me vs $300+ for a vintage set on a runner  that wouldn’t benefit Tamiya in the slightest 

I’m all for supporting the economics and ethics to guarantee Tamiya’s future but both surely have to be grounded in how the World works -  or we’re just building ivory towers destined to fall ?

So, if Tamiya come to a view re what to focus on - and what IP they maintain / enforce -  then it feels ok to take our lead from them re what we buy 🤔

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11 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Not offended at all mate. All these opinions are valid. 👍 And I can totally sympathise with tight budgets too (though I’d also never claim I haven’t been luckier than most people, in a lot of ways).

Having said all that, there’s definitely a line across our expectations in life - beyond which entitlement can become an issue. 🤔

eg. 
Do I think it’s reasonable to believe that every owner of a Tamiya should be able afford to buy spare parts to keep it running for many years? Oh yes, I totally think that is pretty reasonable. 
 

Do I think it’s reasonable to believe that every person who wants to own a Tamiya Bruiser should be able to afford to buy one? No I don’t think that’s reasonable at all.

Thanks for that. I'm sorry if my emotions bled through on that post but the middle class is being obliterated here in the US despite anything anyone says. I can also fully agree with your statement about the Bruiser. Its a high-end Tamiya item and people aren't entitled to it simply because they want one. Many folks think they "deserve" things and wind up in debt because of it. Chasing material things with no regard for consequences (financial or otherwise) leads to disaster. Personally, I find the Bruiser clone a blatant rip-off a would never purchase one. What others do is there business and I have no authority to impose my opinions on them. The fact is, in black and white, the clone represents theft. 

I will say that, if available via a re-release, I will use current Tamiya decals over reproductions for runners. I'm not happy about the alterations Tamiya made but as a consumable on a runner, they're close enough.

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16 hours ago, Truck Norris said:

It's not quite that simple. Tamiya's stickers aren't just run off a printer digitally like MCI's, they are done with a process called "screen printing" which gives the best possible results (especially with white inks) but requires machinery set up with specific stencils. It's not such a simple process to then switch to a different setup to print other sheets.

Tamiya will likely have their machines run at capacity producing stickers for currently available models. It's not economically viable to either have extra machines to print small runs of older sheets, or to constantly be changing the setup to make them.

Same story with bodies - a set amount of injection moulding machines which will all be employed to maintain current production capacity.

Tamiya aren't stupid, and if it made economic sense to continue to produce the older stickers and bodies they would do so.

Im sure that's correct but it would still be entirely possible (and comparatively low cost) to produce more than needed for the basic run, then keep supplies on the market for an extended time. Manufacturing aside, the stock cost is very low. If the biggest cost to them is the setup, then a larger run + longer stocking of the decals is entirely possible.

I doubt they are running their machines at capacity, the market for RCs has shrunk, not grown in recent years. I suspect their machines from the golden years are still well used but not creaking at the seams to keep up with demand.

If you want to talk economic sense, what makes more sense from a business perspective:

  1. Make an artificially limited run and charge a much higher than normal price
  2. Make enough for a long term sustained supply and see larger # sales but the market value reduced

I bet you that the decision to keep stocks low is purely margin based. They would make money either way but its higher margin & less effort for them to artificially limit.

So apologies for my lack of sympathy - I see the artificial limit as pretty simple greed from Tamiya. Lets face it the company has recent form - Lazy re-res, "special editions", that offer nothing new,  lack of chassis innovation for 10+y etc etc.

I love the models they made in the past but I also know when a company is resting on laurels and taking the p*ss out of its consumers. As such i think for out of production models, supply of consumables by 3rd parties in Tamiya's neglect is a good thing

(note the consumables bit....  I 100% agree with  @Hibernaculum on the ripping off of the full model eg the Bruiser - wouldnt touch that thing with a bargepole.

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39 minutes ago, Ann3x said:

If you want to talk economic sense, what makes more sense from a business perspective:

  1. Make an artificially limited run and charge a much higher than normal price
  2. Make enough for a long term sustained supply and see larger # sales but the market value reduced

I bet you that the decision to keep stocks low is purely margin based. They would make money either way but its higher margin & less effort for them to artificially limit.

So apologies for my lack of sympathy - I see the artificial limit as pretty simple greed from Tamiya. Lets face it the company has recent form - Lazy re-res, "special editions", that offer nothing new,  lack of chassis innovation for 10+y etc etc.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, so please don't take offence. I agree with everything you said @Ann3x. However, let's say, keeping with the decal theme, Tamiya reissues a set of Hilux decals. Not exactly knowing how to project sales numbers on what remains of a long discontinued item still in circulation (in addition to those actually being restored or in specific need of decals) is tough. So does a company set up for a long production run of reasonably priced decals or the artificially short run at a high price? Without precisely knowing potential sales projections, the safe bet is short run/high price. This guarantees sales and profit. Greedy or not, Tamiya is a business and will do what it must to ensure profit. I'm not suggesting they aren't a better company with passion for what they produce as opposed to the Traxxas money machine, just that, in the end, they are profit driven like any other company.

I somewhat give Tamiya a pass for their laziness of late. RC is a shrinking industry and Tamiya still hasn't completely sold out by moving all manufacturing to China. Minimal investment in re-res and color/special editions are lazy but keep profits going. Development cost money unfortunately, from design to manufacture. Have they lost some of their spark from the days gone by? Yes, perhaps. It could also be trends have changed and we haven't. I'm indifferent to the Dancing Rider but at least its new and different.

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2 hours ago, Saito2 said:

However, let's say, keeping with the decal theme, Tamiya reissues a set of Hilux decals. Not exactly knowing how to project sales numbers on what remains of a long discontinued item still in circulation (in addition to those actually being restored or in specific need of decals) is tough. So does a company set up for a long production run of reasonably priced decals or the artificially short run at a high price? Without precisely knowing potential sales projections, the safe bet is short run/high price.

Agreed @Saito2 but, for discontinued bits, Tamiya haven’t done that 

It looks like they’ve come to the view that there aren’t enough vintage sales to make even a short / high price original run viable 

Or we’d be awash with high quality, identical, OEM decals and other parts for the 70s and 80s cars we love ?

And let’s not forget that, for decals, part of Tamiya’s problem would be staying true to every period logo they used - and paying other automotive IP owners to license their brand, which they didn’t back in the day ...

You can’t have you cake + eat it ... and I honestly think Tamiya have accepted repro  of their out of print / vintage stuff as a fair trade for older collectors keeping their legacy alive + valuable 

Better that than end up like Kyosho, Marui, Otaki etc 

That isn’t to say the same logic (or motive) extends to Tamiya doing short runs of current kits / bits  - and personally I don’t have a problem with them being smart in maintaining margins ... because if they didn’t they’d quickly go bust 

Whether we’ve all got a legitimate grumble about those profits currently being spent in less innovative / interesting ways may be fair but isn’t really the point when it comes to IP + this thread 

IP is either maintained, used and enforced or it isn’t - and, if it isn’t, nature abhors a vacuum 😇

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Wow, this thread got derailed, didn't it? I guess that group buy isn't happening any time soon...

Speaking as a creative professional (graphic designer and sign guy for 20 years), I can definitely understand the need to protect copyrights and defend trademarks and protect against plagiarism. But those are three very different things, and I think it's vital to understand the difference between them when having a conversation like this.

Copyright infringement is simply making a copy of something that you're not authorized to make. EG, "Here is a tape of AC/DC's Back In Black that I made for you." Troubling, but not really damaging to the copyright holder, especially if the item is no longer available through authorized channels. In this case, the answer really is "put it back in print, and we'll stop copying it."

(The trouble with copyright is that the terms are far too long. Originally, copyright lasted 14 years, renewable once. In my opinion, this is plenty. If you haven't made your money on something within 28 years, you're not going to. But nowadays, thanks to Disney and others, copyright terms last 50-95 years, depending on where you are, and companies tend to go after people for things that should be fair use: guitar tabs, for example, or images from movies or TV shows. This artificial lengthening of copyright protection doesn't help the actual creators of the content; it only benefits the current holder of the copyright. And it's why companies like Disney buy up other people's copyrights and renew them; they're trying to keep making money off the same content forever. The trouble here is (1) they made thier fortune from the public domain, and (2) not allowing new works to enter the public domain keeps the next generation of Disneys from doing the same thing.)

Trademark infringement is using someone's logo or marketing designs without permission; EG "Here's a T-shirt I made with AC/DC's logo on it." Trademarks must be protected by the holder, or they fall into public domain. If a company/band/author doesn't mind you using their trademark, then you're free to do so. It's up to them to tell you to stop. Smart companies recognize the value of free exposure, and only go after people for something defamatory or damaging to their reputation.

Plagiarism is taking someone else's work and selling it as your own without giving them credit; "Here's my new album, I call it Back In Black." This is the one that is not only legally, but morally, wrong, in my eye. It's theft, pure and simple. And it applies no matter how old the subject matter is, whether or not it's protected by copyright or trademark.

I think that in the case of RC goods, there are examples to be found of all three. Some I don't really have a problem with; some I really really do.

Copies of bodyshells and decal sheets are, technically, copyright infringement, and in the case of decals that contain logos, trademark infringement. But just like making a tape or MP3, you lose some quality, and you know it's not quite the real thing. I've had a few TBG bodies over the years, and they're runner-quality at best; the edges are too soft and the fit is sometimes off. But at a glance, they look good, and get the point across. The Marwan body and decal set I bought for my Optima are better, but again, clearly not the real thing. So while I don't really have an issue with copyright/trademark infringement in this case, there is an argument to be made that if you want it to really be right, you need to seek out the original pieces.

But TBG and Marwan and MCI aren't claiming to have created these things themselves, and they're very clear that they are copies of originals. In fact, that's the point.

The Bruiser clone (and that Tumbling Bull clone from a while back), on the other hand, are flat-out plagiarism. They're taking someone else's work and selling it as their own, with no mention of the original creator. They are not copyright infringement; they're far more serious than than that, and it's important not to compare them to repro bodies or decals. When people talk about "Chinese IP theft," they're not talking about copyright infringement. They're talking about plagiarism, and in some cases patent infringement, and that's all a much bigger deal than pulling a Lexan mold or reprinting a 30 year old decal sheet.

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I am reverse engeneering Dyna Storm/Blaster/TR15T parts and offering them on shapeways. Am I a bad person now? :unsure:

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2 minutes ago, Collin said:

I am reverse engeneering Dyna Storm/Blaster/TR15T parts and offering them on shapeways. Am I a bad person now? :unsure:

Nope, you're a "third-party parts supplier." And that's a whole different thing, and totally fine, as far as I know.

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8 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

Nope, you're a "third-party parts supplier." And that's a whole different thing, and totally fine, as far as I know.

Mark, i really like the way you made it down with AC/DC to understand better. I had on semester (half a year) lectures on art university about trademarks and copyrights and it is very delicate to understand. Great posting you did! ;)

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49 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

Nope, you're a "third-party parts supplier." And that's a whole different thing, and totally fine, as far as I know.

Isn’t it only ok if Tamiya aren’t bothered maintaining or enforcing that IP ? 

Not familiar with those kits or bits - so, like other things, Tamiya might not be bothered ? - but there’s registered and unregistered design rights in those parts plus - as @markbt73 says - copyright in the plans 

Reverse engineering is basically coming to the same place w/o using the same plan - and legally that doesn’t always mean free ... nor should it

If it’s yellow + quacks it’s still a duck etc

That said, searching Tamiya on Shapeways tends to reinforce my view that they’ve chosen to leave most repro vintage suppliers alone - noting even Shapeways Dutch hosting would otherwise stretch ‘schmoke and a pancake’ indifference to its limits ...

Interesting sidebar re copyright and trademarks btw - @markbt73 is spot on re technical timeframes but in corporate life it always comes down to cash 

And getting anywhere near those timeframes globally costs companies a fortune - not least because lots of countries are diff 

And they then get dragged into nugatory legal debates in places where lying down crosses a time zone ... to the point only the lawyers come out smiling 

If Tamiya care about their IP - then, for me, we should take notice + support them 

If, in some cases, they’ve decided to write it off then why would we argue ? 

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Good explanation @markbt73

But wait, how is what @Collin is doing, not plagiarism? 
 

1 hour ago, markbt73 said:

Copyright infringement is simply making a copy of something that you're not authorized to make

 

1 hour ago, markbt73 said:

Plagiarism is taking someone else's work and selling it as your own without giving them credit

I assume by “offering” reverse engineered Tamiya parts on shapeways, Collin is “publicly selling”. (But I know nothing about shapeways functionality, so he can correct me if that’s not the economic reality).

And surely the selling is the key determinant of plagiarism, rather than the “giving them credit” part.

Otherwise the chinese Bruiser clone could just have a sticker on the box that said “Originally created by Tamiya!!!!!!!” to absolve themselves of all plagiarism charges. Which would be ridiculous. 

Making a copy for personal use, or free sharing among a few friends, has always seemed to me - reasonable. In any industry. As I’m sure we can all relate throughout the years (whether it was cassettes, MP3s, or custom parts for Tamiyas)

And putting aside the debate about “out of print” products for a moment (a grey area)...

It’s really the commercial sales of plagiarised products, which are still in current production, that I most object to. Because these are the least ethical cases, and also the ones that do the most damage to the rights holder (Tamiya).

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29 minutes ago, Hibernaculum said:

Good explanation @markbt73

But wait, how is what @Collin is doing, not plagiarism? 
 

 

I assume by “offering” reverse engineered Tamiya parts on shapeways, Collin is “publicly selling”. (But I know nothing about shapeways functionality, so he can correct me if that’s not the economic reality).

And surely the selling is the key determinant of plagiarism, rather than the “giving them credit” part.

Otherwise the chinese Bruiser clone could just have a sticker on the box that said “Originally created by Tamiya!!!!!!!” to absolve themselves of all plagiarism charges. Which would be ridiculous. 

Making a copy for personal use, or free sharing among a few friends, has always seemed to me - reasonable. In any industry. As I’m sure we can all relate throughout the years (whether it was cassettes, MP3s, or custom parts for Tamiyas)

And putting aside the debate about “out of print” products for a moment (a grey area)...

It’s really the commercial sales of plagiarised products, which are still in current production, that I most object to. Because these are the least ethical cases, and also the ones that do the most damage to the rights holder (Tamiya).

As you said you dont know much about 3D but for most parts there are functional improvements vs the original Tamiya parts. Isnt that RPM/Thorpe/MIP entire business model? Or should we all be forced to only use the original parts with no possibility of hopup unless the original company bless it?

Some people I think just want to keep their models elite/exclusive and allow less people access to the vintage part of the hobby.

As others have said its blindly obvious to anyone with proper knowledge whats a repro decal / shell vs original BUT it does allow the spirit of these cars to be seen more & actually used, not just shelved. All these repro manufacturers do is fill the hole that Tamiya should be filling themselves - if they gave a crap.

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all good points, and some more food for thought.

Has the Bruiser been plagiarised? well, its an almost exact copy, so yes, try as I might, you can't argue any differently

But is it illegal? or unethical? I think that depends.

Like @markbt73 I also work in the creative industries (mainly film work now), but from all the reading/investigating I've have done, I don't see how the Bruiser (aside from the graphics) can be copyrightable, mainly because its a very close copy of an actual Toyota Hilux. Nor could they really copyright any of the mechanisms. Copyright was also initially introduced to protect creative works of art (think books and art) and only in the last century did the US extend that to be able to include 2 and 3 dimensional objects. But there are still levels of uniqueness that have to be reached in order for a copyright to be successfully defended. The Bruiser is not like the Frog or Hornet, it's structure is based on an actual vehicle.

Patents - Tamiya could have and probably would have patents on certain aspects of the design of the Bruiser ( well all their models really). But for the Bruiser, these would have all expired and can't be renewed.

I also wonder why they chose the Bruiser, I can't imagine its a high selling RC car. Why no go for the Frog or something else that is higher selling?

Also other chassis designs have been copied/plagiarised.  I bought a second hand cheap chinese RC car many years ago, and it turned out to be a HBX. The chassis was an almost exact copy of the TL-01, although not perfect. I cracked the chassis and ended replacing most of the parts with Tamiya ones. I wasn't really into RC again when the HBX release this car, but I don't recall and can see any issue when it came out. Can any one correct me on that?

So if it's not breaking copyright or patent laws, I doubt what the clone done is illegal. It it were a much newer model, that would be a different story. 

Although, the body design would be copyrighted to Toyota, so they would probably be out there. However I doubt Toyota is going to chase them.

 

So do I think it's ethical? Again because it's old, I don't think so (if it was new, then yes, unethical). 

 

As for parts copying, there are companies build around replacement parts, usually as upgrades. Same goes for 1:1 cars, as long as its marketed as what it is ( a non-genuine replacement part) then I don't see how there is any legal issue.

Man this thread has been derailed!

 

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45 minutes ago, yogi-bear said:

As for parts copying, there are companies build around replacement parts, usually as upgrades. Same goes for 1:1 cars, as long as its marketed as what it is ( a non-genuine replacement part) then I don't see how there is any legal issue.

 

Yep, that's it exactly. It's "functionally equivalent." You're not making an exact copy of the part; you're making a part that fits in the same spot and does the same job. No issues whatsoever as long as you don't have to copy something patented to make it work. Besides, copyright (AFAIK) applies to complete finished works. You can copyright a book, for instance, but not each individual word in it.

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