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Hibernaculum

The only reason I generally don't buy the remakes...

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I may be totally alone on this one. Robinson Crusoe... :P But I thought I'd throw this out there anyway. Throwing myself to the wolves :D...

When the remakes began, I admit I had some misgivings about them, because I felt annoyed that I had spent a lot of time, money and effort collecting the originals. But that's not the reason I don't buy them these days. Because these days, they really don't bother me at all. And I think practically all fans, collectors and enthusiasts have gotten used to the idea that both the originals and remakes each have their place. Prior to Tamiya's first RC remakes, the mere concept of a retro "reissue" of an old R/C car was totally new to the R/C community. So I think when it first happened, there were a lot of wild predictions and some people leapt about either claiming vintage was doomed, or that the remakes were total replacements that undermined vintage collecting and value etc. I didn't believe this, and to be honest, I think none of it turned out to be true. Vintage prices fell initially - but have recovered strongly over the years. What's more, when remake kits are discontinued, even the remake values increase in price. So nobody needs to stress that they paid more for stuff that lost value... I think the value always comes back eventually.

As many of you know, I am quite fussy about vintage vs remake. I just think this is a very important detail, for collecting purposes. But the differences the remakes have, are not purely the reason why I don't buy them...

Also, I often buy retro remakes of other products - such as sneakers. So I am certainly not against "remakes" as a concept itself. I am happy when many things live on in remade form, and allow fans to enjoy a new cycle of them.

The main reason I don't really buy Tamiya remakes is simply this: a remake might cost me anywhere between $150 and $600 for a buggy. And that's a lot of money I could be spending on vintage R/C stuff instead.

So, to explain...

Last year I sneakily bought another NIB Vintage Frog kit for a mere AU$200 (instead of the going rate - $700-$800). Right time, right place ūü§∑‚Äć‚ôāÔłŹ¬† I also recently bought a NIB Hornet, Grasshopper and Super Hornet for a combined total of $1000 - a mere $333 per kit.

When I know the occasional way to find cool stuff like that, I can't resist spending my money on more vintage things instead of remake things.... because at the end of the day, it's also the true "1980s article" that simply gives me the most joy. I also get a huge kick out of building and running cars stock-vintage, which I do occasionally (and gently). I love replacing NOS vintage spare parts too - again, because I know that being in the right place at the right time means that many such spare parts can also be found cheaply.

I know many people only buy the remakes because it's cheaper to buy them NIB, bash, run, etc.   But I have spent 20 years collecting online, and even longer collecting overall. And year after year, the honest truth is, I fumble around and find bargains that mean I am essentially paying the same for vintage, as many people pay for remake goods. Nothing shady either - just simple persistence and occasional nights awake in the wee hours buying or discussing with others.

You might still be thinking "But how?". Well as Sun Tzu said, "Opportunities multiply as they are seized". The longer you collect, the sharper you get? ūü§∑‚Äć‚ôāÔłŹ

And don't tell me the vintage stuff is inferior, brittle, old, weak etc... :D  It so isn't. Tamiya plastic and rubber is incredible. The technology too, appeals to me - I like that the old stuff was inferior. I like the earlier thinking. I like seeing it work, and fail, and work again. Like repairing an old car from the 1960s. That's what it was, and where the legend was born - for better or worse. (mostly better).

So when faced with 2 choices for a similar price, I can't resist the old plastic and rubber smell of old Tamiya kits over the new remake of the same model. The old stuff is an addiction. From the parts boxes to the non-shiny plastic, the non-bright-white wheels, the heavy bits, the overkill bits, the old ways of doing things, the genuine sponsor logos... and more. NiCd batteries even :D

There's another chap I know in Sydney who feels the same way, but he never posts here. He only buys the old RC things, because it feels like old buried treasure - as opposed to newly minted cash.

Anyway, feel free to disagree and tell me why I'm crazy. :)  Or can some of you sort of understand this strange timewarp I live in?

H.

tamiya-hotshot-restoration-005.jpg?resiz

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I sort of get your idea. I've just got back into the hobby, along with a mate of mine. He has an original (and much abused) Hornet. I got back into things with a relatively modern TT02B; but I also restored an original Sand Rover. Some of the parts I had to replace using re-issue parts; I had to make my own front suspension uprights. I made them the same way I would have done that in 1984; 0.8mm aluminium and some trusty tin snips. I didn't even paint them black, because I know I wouldn't have done that back then. It didn't feel 'right' doing it now. I repaired the ancient silvercan 540 instead of a 'newer' (only 29-yr-old) motor - honestly the newer motor would have shredded the poor Rover's gears. The one damaged part I'm worried about is one of the spur gears is missing a tooth, so I'm a bit aprehensive about running it. The fun has been getting the original running again; it will have it's first (very, very careful) drive in 36 years this weekend.

Anyway baaack to the point: I'm hardly a collector; I barely have the room for the cars I have now. I'd love an original vintage Frog (because I always wanted one) and I would dearly love a Super Champ - it was my first car back in '83. But I'll be happy to go with the re-re Frog - to me it's not that much different; I'm not enough of an afficionado for the original. 

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Back in the late 90s, I had amassed quite a collection from the original 100, but sadly due to financial woes on the collapse of a business,  I had to sell quite a lot of stuff, including all of my rc collection. Fast forward 10 years or so, and I started collecting again, I now have a much bigger collection of vintage kits, but I do feel somewhat aggrieved that I have spent many years looking for the rare and hard to find items, paying considerably More for the same models due to the inflated prices, then Tamiya re release all the classics which immediately makes my collection worth less, because you can go and buy a new version of a kit for half the price of an original.

I will continue to collect the early stuff regardless, because I enjoy it, but I do wonder sometimes if I am going to lose money on the stuff I  the long run.

J

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I have to agree with you whole heartily. I am "old skool" myself, and like the questions, admiration of others when running something older than they are. I love to brag when people see me running my 36 year old Wild Willy. They always smile, and ask, "What is that? Where did you get it?" only for me to tell the 28 year old "It is a Tamiya Wild Willy, I bought it in 1983 when my 36 year old son was only 2 months old.." They are awe struck and reply " No s...t? It still works?", Yeah, you see it... ;)  Those that run new stuff don't get that thrill.. ;) 

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To the OP, you explain your opinion very well!  We’re all different which means we’re likely not all going to be chasing or striving for the same thing(s).

You outline how much time and effort you put into acquiring the original parts, and generally, the more time and effort involved, the better the outcome or chances of reaching your goal, especially when it’s not done in a shady way.  When you purchased the NIB Frog last year, you said it was done sneakily, even though you were in the right place at the right time.  What was sneaky about the purchase??

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7 hours ago, junkmunki said:

I will continue to collect the early stuff regardless, because I enjoy it, but I do wonder sometimes if I am going to lose money on the stuff I  the long run.

I suspect you’ll be ok and won’t lose out (unless you paid absolute top dollar for everything). 
I babbled about this in another thread recently, but my theory these days is that the existence of the internet perpetuates interests, hobbies, fashions and fads in a way that humanity has never witnessed before. Nothing is ever truly ‚Äúforgotten‚ÄĚ like it used to be, and social media keeps niche interests alive by allowing¬†enthusiasts to keep connecting with each other...¬†forever.¬†
This keeps the value¬†of things alive too. Retro things are under a sort of ‚ÄĚconstant renaissance‚ÄĚ.

4 hours ago, H22A4 said:

When you purchased the NIB Frog last year, you said it was done sneakily, even though you were in the right place at the right time.  What was sneaky about the purchase??

Simple really: It was just a very poorly worded, poorly/overexposed photographed for sale listing that made you think the kit was incomplete. The seller had no idea though, and it was in fact totally complete. I quickly did a parts check based on the photos, and took a gamble with what I couldn’t see properly based on the likelihood the entire kit was probably intact. And the gamble paid off.

I picked up a new built Opel Ascona complete with early short bumper, but lacking the body, for $100 around the same time. That was also cool. 

I could keep going. I found a new in box Radio Shack 4x4 Off Roader for $50 one day recently. These are worth about $300 in that condition...

A mint new built original (and early vintage) unpainted Kyosho Scorpion for $150 was incredible too. With a mint LeMans motor.¬†Again poorly listed on a¬†website ūü§∑ūüŹĽ‚Äć‚ôāÔłŹ Mint early ‚ÄúGoodyear‚ÄĚ tyres and all.¬†

Of course I am not the only one who finds nice bargains occasionally, and there are many other stories on these forums.

Just that if you are willing to search and search all the time, things like these *can* come up. And then it becomes (for me) a question of ‚Äúwhy would I spend that little bit of money on something new and readily available,¬†when next month (if I search hard of course) I might find more old treasure...?‚ÄĚ ūü§Ē

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There are very specific reasons why I purchase re-release Tamiya products. 

1. Comparing NIB to NIB, they are cheaper 99% of the time in my experience. The days of snagging a cheap vintage NIB are pretty much over from what I've seen (in comparison to like re-re). Non-RC collectors now know there's money to be made on an old NIB Tamiya. I'm not saying there aren't deals out there or a vintage NIB can't be bought at well under the going rate through careful and diligent searching. Its just that if I'm looking for a particular model to build the chances are lessened that I'm going to find a good deal on that exact model that I'm after within a reasonable time frame (say a year). If your eyes are on the lookout for all vintage NIB kits to add to a collection, then then chances improve because one isn't being so selective.

2. I like to build and run a lot of my models. I personally do not like to build vintage NIB kits. They are an ever increasing rarity. They are finite in number and I would feel bad taking one out of existence. They're only NIB once. I can not afford to keep a plethora of vintage NIB kits. I would like to, as I find vintage Tamiya box presentation to be tops. I have one to enjoy this way but shelf queens and runners are more important to me. I'm glad some people do keep them NIB though. Its just a responsibility I can't afford to want.

3. Used runners have not treated me well.

14 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

And don't tell me the vintage stuff is inferior, brittle, old, weak etc... :D  It so isn't. Tamiya plastic and rubber is incredible.

I'm not sure if this is a comment on the older designs in general or just about older material vs a re-release's fresher version of the same material. Older designs I love dearly, "flaws" and all. New RC is generally a snore-fest for me.  Speaking on materials and age, I have spent some time studying the materials Tamiyas are made from and how they last. If they are vintage NIB examples keep in fairly good climate conditions I mostly agree Tamiya plastic is about as good as re-released plastic (assuming we compare the same materials). Used? Forget it. Tamiya plastics (mostly ABS back in the day after the metal era) were many times better than what other manufactures were using like Nichimo or Royal. Much like a used full size car, one has no idea how it was treated however. Was it stored in a blisteringly hot attic? Did that same attic see freezing temperatures? What about UV? Sun can kill ABS. Once the plasticizers leach out of a plastic part, its done. I've had so many used runners crumble or turn to dust, I gave up. The fact that Tamiya's religious use of self-tapping screws often times begins stress fracturing of a particular hole from the moment of insertion does not help matters. Without the proper amount of material surrounding the hole, mere age can cause splits and cracks. If I want a runner from the get go, I no longer bother. I just buy a re-release.

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Great thread, I love to read the opinions of others.

I don't really visit this subforum much because I don't really 'do' vintage.  I love the older cars but for me re-re is so much easier.  I'm very impatient, so if I want something, I want it now.  I don't want to have to fight someone on ebay for the last remaining kit, get into a bidding war and pay more than I wanted, hunt around on trade sites or keep my eyes glued on the TC Trades areas.

I have no problem with vintage, I have a vintage Bear Hawk runner, some vintage touring cars, NIB / unpainted vintage touring bodies that haven't been re-re'd.  I bought them either because they were cheap at the time, or because I knew I wanted them and wouldn't be likely to get them from a re-re.  But at heart I'm a customiser - I don't want to build something box-stock and box-art or fit it only with genuine vintage hop-ups.  I want to do my own custom paint and decal designs, I want to make my own adjustable top arms, I want to make my own shock towers and chassis plates.  I don't mind chopping up a vintage TA02 while there are still plenty out there (and re-re parts to keep them running) but I'm loathe to paint my own black-and-yellow rally scheme on my boxed Corolla WRC body, because a) it monetarily destroys the value of something I paid a lot for, 2) there's a high likelihood of me damaging the body while cutting or ruining the paint job, and iii) if I don't like the results I probably won't have the option of trying again.  I'd much rather Tamiya re-released the Corolla WRC (or even just the body set).  I don't even care that I spent good money on mine.  It's still a vintage body and still has vintage value.  I might paint it.  I might sell it and by the re-re body.  I might sell it and buy the re-re body even if I make no net gain in cash, just because I'd rather someone else enjoyed the vintage body for what it is.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with fitting re-re parts to my older cars to keep them running.  My Bear Hawk has a re-re Blitzer Beetle chassis tub, because the original had been ruined with wood screws.  I think parts of the front suspension are re-re too.  I don't care, I bought it to run, not to make it a period-correct resto project.  It's got modern shocks and home-made steering links, a Tamiya turnbuckle kit for a later model, a Super Stock BZ motor and Etronix ESC and 2.4GHz radio, and I've modified the battery tray to fit a LiPo.  I don't drive it like a modern competition buggy but if I enter it in a vintage race then I'll race as hard as anyone else.  I'd have no problem using 3D printed parts if OEM aren't available, and I'd have no problem with those prints being slightly different in design to accomodate the different strength characteristics of resin or PLA.  I'd have no problem if those parts were slightly redesigned to improve performance or durability.  I wouldn't even mind if they took the original car way beyond its original design philosophy provided that was the direction I wanted to take the car in.

I see that as being much like the race teams who keep vintage race cars running.  I went to a vintage racing festival at Silverstone a few years back and saw some world-class classic racing.  OK, the vintage F1 cars were more of a parade than a race, especially as it was wet, but I wonder how many of those ran with original vintage parts?  I bet the majority have had engine rebuilds since they left the Grand Prix circtuit, and although you can probably still buy pistons / rings / bearing shells / conrods to the original spec, I doubt they're made on the original machines with original manufacturing techniques.  They'll have the same spec as OEM but they'll be made on modern machines, potentially to a better standard than they were back then.  I very much doubt the majority of classic F1 teams are scouring vintage car shows and old workshop clearances looking for NIP pistons for a 1968 Cosworth DFV.  Even more so with the classic touring brigade - those guys race just as hard as current-day BTCC.  OK, so you can still buy new panels for a Mk1 Mini (the equivalent of Tamiya's re-re parts, admittedly) but for a Mustang or a Mark II Jag?  A quick search online suggests you can.  Just under £3,000 gets you a new front wing for your Mark II.  Considering more than a few cars ended up in the gravel, I'll bet these teams are replacing more panels in a year than there is NOS to go around.

Of course racers aren't the same as vintage restorers, and I'm sure lots would rather their future-museum-piece Mark II is rebuilt with British-made NOS than fitted with re-pop body panels made with imported steel.  But sometimes vintage parts just don't exist, especially once you move away from Austin or Jaguar and into more obscure territory.  Restorers are using 3D scanners and metal 3D printers to reproduce things - for example a cast alloy thermostat housing that has corroded beyond repair.  Prior to these technologies, the restorer would have to make a mould and cast a whole new one-off piece, modify a later / more common part from another model to fit, or machine a new part from billet, which would match the original requirements and specs but look very different.  A 3D printed thermostat housing is not OEM, but for parts over 100 years old they're as close as we can get.

That said, I respect the vintage kit restorer who puts a high value on having vintage parts.  Hopefully by buying re-re parts and preferring to start with re-re kits where possible, I am helping to reduce the consumption of original vintage parts.  But on the other hand, if in five years time vintage collectors are ruing the lack of TL-01 chassis parts because people like me keep cutting them up to make shorties and rally cars then, well, I won't lose any sleep over it.  Not unless I'm desperate to restore an original LA car with a broken shock mount and I'm staring at an empty ebay search and a box full of half-chassis that I chopped up five years ago...

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i would appreciate way more reres so that common people can afford older models and ebay prices starting to collapse.

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On 1/31/2020 at 3:59 PM, Saito2 said:

I mostly agree Tamiya plastic is about as good as re-released plastic (assuming we compare the same materials). Used? Forget it. Tamiya plastics (mostly ABS back in the day after the metal era) were many times better than what other manufactures were using like Nichimo or Royal. Much like a used full size car, one has no idea how it was treated however. Was it stored in a blisteringly hot attic? Did that same attic see freezing temperatures? What about UV? Sun can kill ABS. 

When I restored my original Hotshot, I was running it on its maiden voyage after a full rebuild/restoration. I broke the rear shock mount, broke one of the wing mounting points, and broke the shock travel swivel. In one run of under 30 seconds, I broke three parts. That was an expensive repair since I didn't use re-re stuff. I'm nearly certain the previous owner had this thing in a hot Missouri attic. 

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@NWarty I did something very similar to my old Thundershot which I had restored (added in Brushless motor and modern esc and RD gear) ripped of a couple of wheels and undid about 3 solid days of work done over a few weeks. VERY demoralising. I am happy to now look at them in a display case and happy to use both re-re parts and repo parts to freshen up /restore to catalogue look.

I don't require it to be vintage to give me the nostalgic feeling. If the re-re has notably different graphic I just order a set of vintage repo ones to give it the look I want.

If we all liked the same thing the world would be a lot less interesting.

Strokes for folks and all that.

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Late to this particular party; haven't had time to reply until now.

I often find that the re-res are overpriced, especially at the new mandated-price levels here in the USA (although they're better now than they were before the adjustment). However, vintage NIB kits are, without a doubt, massively overpriced. I know, supply and demand and all that, and yes, there's some jealousy that I wasn't in a position to start collecting them 20 years ago when eBay was shiny and new and nobody cared about old toy cars, but really - even at $300-400, something like a Hornet is around 4 times as expensive as when it was new, and that's not even counting inflation. You'd have to think long and hard about building and running a kit after spending that much.

At $140, a re-issue Hornet kit makes a lot more sense, if what you're after is the experience of building one from new. You get 99% of the look and feel for less than half the price. Sure, they changed a few decals, and it comes with an ESC instead of the old 3-step, but it still bounces around, and has crazy front camber angles, and it still kills your fingers getting those tires onto the rims.

(This, BTW, is the only reason I bought a new Turbo Optima; I just wanted to build that chassis from new. And I enjoyed it, but I think from now on, it will have to be something that level of special to get me to spend money on a re-re.)

But for a cheapskate like me, who has more hobbies than he should, even $140 is a splurge. If I decided I wanted a Hornet, I wouldn't bother with the re-issue. I'd go in search of a used original, and have a grand old time taking everything apart and cleaning it up and putting it back together, and putting it through its paces. Sure, lots of people are convinced that their old worn-out junk is worth a small fortune, and price it accordingly, but there are still bargains to be found. $30-50 Hornets, Grasshoppers, and Frogs are still around, if you're willing to sniff them out. No, they're not shelf-queens, but they're still good runners, and usually more interesting than yet another box-art new build. Worried about something breaking? Buy two, stash one away for spares, and you're still ahead, money-wise.

It's all a matter of how you define "value." For me, the value is the experience of ownership, in whatever form that takes. I don't care how much something is "worth" after I have spent the money on it; what matters to me from that point forward is how much enjoyment I get out of it, whether that enjoyment is opening a box and gazing at all the potential energy stored-up in an unassembled kit, or carefully restoring an old model using 100% new-old-stock parts, or doing donuts in the dust with an old Frog with bald tires. It's all valid, and it's all fun.

But dollar-for-dollar, for me, slightly scruffy used originals are where it's at. I don't have the money to play in the NIB end of the pool, so I don't worry about it. Someday, if I can, I'd love to buy one NIB vintage RC model, and let it tell me when the right time to build it is. But until then, I keep finding that I prefer cars with some miles on them.

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+1 re @markbt73 view

Most vintage kits come with period r/c, spares + often batteries ... usually for the shelf but still 

They also recreate the build we remember as kids + a drive experience that (for me) doesn’t benefit from translation 

It’s not something that will ever compete with modern times - nor should it - so why mess about ?

Anyway, to pick a Sand Scorcher - you can bag an unloved but boxed vintage Mk2 for c $250 - 300 ... plus maybe $50 in NOS fixing the irrecoverable unless you unwittingly bought a pig ...

And, in either case, have all the fun of bringing your childhood back to life !

By contrast, a re re Scorcher - which imo just isn’t the same in many small but important places - will still cost you $299 plus another  c. $150 - 200 for r/c and bits on top of Tamiya RRP

That tends to suggest vintage vs re re shouldn’t be about economics - or, if it is, vintage wins ?

And the upshot for me is you’d only buy re re if you felt strongly enough about reserves of vintage stock not being reduced by running ... and were prepared to pay over the odds for a sub optimal experience to do it ?

Anything else is just generously¬†contributing to¬†Tamiya‚Äôs¬†pockets with each re re ‚Äėnew edition‚Äô¬†- which, to be fair, still¬†isn‚Äôt a bad thing for the rest of us¬†ūüėᬆ

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I love both.  The vintage models I slowly restore (like an old 70 Chevelle SS or 71 Mustang Boss 351, etc.) and make them as pristine as I can.  You put a ton of time and love (and cash) into them and you shelve them under lights.

 

The re-res you throw a brushless 7,000 Kv motor in it with a fat LiPo and run it like you wished you could run the vintage models.  Thats why my shelf has a restored vintage and, next to it, its re-re counterpart all beat up and smoking.

 

Best of both worlds now. 

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Agreed I love stripping down something old, replacing broken parts and reassemble then look at what you’ve rescued.....

 BUT then sometimes it’s nice to Get a delivery, open a sealed box, unpack bags, fold back page 1 of the instructions for the first time, start cutting out those perfect pieces and assembling :)

JJ

 

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I take the middle road. I acquire vintage kits that are in-progress and unfinished. Price is significantly less than NIB, yet I get to enjoy finishing up the kit (or a complete tear-down and re-build if I like), without feeling guilty for "breaking the seal" of a precious vintage NIB kit. The result is the same that I end up with a pristine shelf queen. :)

My collection has a mix of originals and re-res'.  I purchase the originals if the re-re kit has certain aspect that I dislike. For example, original Midnight Pumpkin (for the FORD logo), paired with re-re Lunch Box. Original Blackfoot (again for the FORD logo), paired with re-re Monster Beetle. Original Rough Rider (I dislike the Buggy Champ name and the front tires), paired with re-re Sand Scorcher. To me, this is the best of both worlds. Speaking of the Rough Rider, I was lucky that I got an original early No. 5815 black bumper kit that the seller had no idea and was selling it as re-re Buggy Champ. It isn't NIB, but 95% of the contents are un-opened. I look forward to the gratification of building an all original vintage kit, yet feel no guilt of cutting open the 30+ year old blister packs.

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The other thing re-re's do is bring back the replacement parts for those of us that like to run the old stuff and couldn't give a hoot whether the part is original, you just want to get back out there.

As to NIB and collecting, that's a different story.

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If all of us did our best to find those bargain vintage nib kits, soon there wouldn’t be any left.

 

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I get the OP, but I love the rere trend. I have certain models I adore, and I honestly avoid the unobtanium. I'd rather let the collectors have them. 

 

I'm not abusive to my rigs, but I believe in using them. So I don't want an original 87 Clodbuster. I don't want to tear one up. I'd like to have a bowtie grille for one of my hard bodies, but they are too valuable for a runner.

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I love buying old 90s tamiya rc cars, parts, spares, job lots...... then I look through my parts and build rc cars! My collection has grown massively. I even race them too. Life is for living  (as my wife says) so rc cars are for having fun with and in my opinion racing!. I just hope everyone has fun which ever direction they take in this hobby. 

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