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Saito2

Super Astute vs DT02

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I'm no hard core racer so I'm deferring to the experts. Before hopefully sending my Super Astute off to a new home somewhere, I took a look at it next to a DT02 Desert Gator. I came away a bit curious comparing this top level buggy from bitd to this entry/mid level buggy of more recent times. Both are actually somewhat similar. They have similar dimensions. The DT02 is just about the same with the front arms flipped. They have about the same front kick-up too. The low-tech ABS tub on the DT02 is actually stiffer than the FRP plate chassis on the SA. The DT02's transmission is vastly different. Its big and bulletproof with 32 pitch gears but of course lacks a slipper and any real ratio options. I'm guessing its less efficient too. The SA has superior steering to with its bell cranks over the DT02's direct linkage. Obviously one looks and feels high tech while the other looks like typical Tamiya plastic fantastic.

These differences aside, if both buggies were matched to run at the same speed and set up for a track with the same tires, dialed-in etc. with similar drivers, would the SA really run away and hide from the more basic but bulletproof DT02?

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I feel like the slipper clutch And transmission of the SA is definitely going to help , so I’d probably say that i the the hands of the same driver it will be the better car.

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5 hours ago, Superluminal said:

Whats the weight difference?

I’ve always found this interesting,  I tried to go all Lotus and have the lightest car I could when I started racing, but than realised that pretty much every one makes their car heavier in places  so it’s more stable.

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I think the SA would still go better without modification, just with some good setup.

The big thing on the DT02/3 is lack of rear toe in. It makes getting the power down quite tricky. That's why i designed the 3d printed toe in uprights for my DT03. It's quite a big improvement. The lack of a slipper clutch isn't a hugh deal if you aren't racing mod motors. Most racers running 17.5 use a slipper elimiantor anyway, but on modern radios you could put a curve on the throttle channel to make the power come in a little easier too. I have done this on my TRF211 despite it having a slipper because it makes it easier to drive on light throttle on a tight circuit.

Gearing is a big thing too though as you can't gear a DT transmission for 17.5 (around 6 FDR) as its limited to 8.2 and 9.1 IIRC which means the DT is only geared for racing with something around a 10.5, maybe 8.5 in the lower gear. DT might go better on low grip / loose surface as it has a ball diff option which is big and durable. 

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1 hour ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

The big thing on the DT02/3 is lack of rear toe in. It makes getting the power down quite tricky. That's why i designed the 3d printed toe in uprights for my DT03. It's quite a big improvement. The lack of a slipper clutch isn't a hugh deal if you aren't racing mod motors. Most racers running 17.5 use a slipper elimiantor anyway, but on modern radios you could put a curve on the throttle channel to make the power come in a little easier too. I have done this on my TRF211 despite it having a slipper because it makes it easier to drive on light throttle on a tight circuit.

Gearing is a big thing too though as you can't gear a DT transmission for 17.5 (around 6 FDR) as its limited to 8.2 and 9.1 IIRC which means the DT is only geared for racing with something around a 10.5, maybe 8.5 in the lower gear. DT might go better on low grip / loose surface as it has a ball diff option which is big and durable. 

Ok. its things I overlooked like the lack of rear toe in I was curious about. I guess I was surprised that some of the features from the once vaunted Super Astute trickled down into to what we consider a pretty basic buggy nowadays. In typical Tamiya fashion, they handicapped the DT02 with limited ratios (just like the early days) and direct steering. Obviously, these were both cost cutting and honestly the added features of the SA were not in line with the design goals of the DT02 anyway. They really are meant to be in the same league and the SA definitely has more potential. I was just curious if the difference would be that great if both were dailed in and brought down to the same level. Some times a good driver with a mediocre car can beat a mediocre driver with a good car and sometimes the difference in cars is too great (I don't see a Hornet beating an RC10 unless the RC10 driver is really bad.}

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15 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Ok. its things I overlooked like the lack of rear toe in I was curious about. I guess I was surprised that some of the features from the once vaunted Super Astute trickled down into to what we consider a pretty basic buggy nowadays. In typical Tamiya fashion, they handicapped the DT02 with limited ratios (just like the early days) and direct steering. Obviously, these were both cost cutting and honestly the added features of the SA were not in line with the design goals of the DT02 anyway. They really are meant to be in the same league and the SA definitely has more potential. I was just curious if the difference would be that great if both were dailed in and brought down to the same level. Some times a good driver with a mediocre car can beat a mediocre driver with a good car and sometimes the difference in cars is too great (I don't see a Hornet beating an RC10 unless the RC10 driver is really bad.}

Agreed. I suspect with my rear uprights, some camber links and the right springs and damper oil, and with something like a 10.5 motor in both the DT02 would hang with a Super Astute in theory. I haven't driven a Super Astute though, and my experience of how massively better/easier/more pleasurable to drive a DN01 is compared to my much modified DT03 would make me wonder about a similar experience with a Super Astute.

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Aside from the transmission and steering, I'd hazard a guess that the DT02 is closer to the SA than the SA is to the DN01 having had a TRF201 myself. The SA is somewhat roughly in line with the RC10 of the day (obviously with Tamiya's typical quirkiness mixed in). The DT02 also seems like a general nod to the RC10, with some highly diluted aspects of the SA. The TRF201/DN01 was basically an RC10B4, about the highest level/last of the rear motor buggies.

I didn't get much wheel time with my TRF201 and never had a DT03. Do you care to expound on the differences in driving dynamics @ThunderDragonCy? Curious as ever am I (Yoda voice).

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32 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Aside from the transmission and steering, I'd hazard a guess that the DT02 is closer to the SA than the SA is to the DN01 having had a TRF201 myself. The SA is somewhat roughly in line with the RC10 of the day (obviously with Tamiya's typical quirkiness mixed in). The DT02 also seems like a general nod to the RC10, with some highly diluted aspects of the SA. The TRF201/DN01 was basically an RC10B4, about the highest level/last of the rear motor buggies.

I didn't get much wheel time with my TRF201 and never had a DT03. Do you care to expound on the differences in driving dynamics @ThunderDragonCy? Curious as ever am I (Yoda voice).

From experience with lengthening the wheelbase of a race car a few years ago, the longer DT03 should be more stable , but more of a point and squirt drive. Whereas the shorter DN01 should be more nimble through the corners.

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1 minute ago, matisse said:

From experience with lengthening the wheelbase of a race car a few years ago, the longer DT03 should be more stable , but more of a point and squirt drive. Whereas the shorter DN01 should be more nimble through the corners.

In theory yes, and the DT03 has a much better front end design than the 02 - 25 deg kick up and equal length steering arms, although still direct action. However, the long wheelbase with rear motor means there is far too little weight on the front of an 03. I have stashed over 50 grams of stick on weights around the front of mine.

I actually really like driving my 03 these days, but that's because i have truck wheels on it. It always seemed a bit of a mess of understeer to oversteer on grass and astro on buggy wheels, but given how good it is as a truck i suspect the slim fronts are to blame on the kit wheels. The DN01 was just easy to drive and poised out of the box and only got better with some tweaking. It did have wide fronts though, which i never tried on the 03, but probably would have helped. The other thing the DT rear end lacks is anti squat. Completely flat arms and no way to adjust. I think this is another big plus for the higher end buggies. 

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