That ol' "returning to the hobby..." post.

[Markspark2 2]

 New here... hello!

Like so many these days, I am a 80's/90's kid who has owned (I forget exactly) 5-6 Tamiyas in the past (Sand Scorcher, Mons Beetle etc.. a heavily modded Baja King, and even the Lamborghini Cheetah!) 

Now with a kid of my own and massive, dusty carparks within minutes of the house, it's time to pick it up again!  

 

I've been researching the b'jeezus out of the new kits and I'm impressed but I am SO drawn to the Grasshopper/Hornet/Rising Fighter body shapes and styles. 

Here's the brief:

My friend and our two respective sons want to run bashers, that's four cars. Nothing serious or high end, speed and precise handling is not really a concern. That said, a sloppy and unwieldy car will just be annoying for everyone. (I foresee many flips and cracked body shells from the kids... )

They must be 2wd. Not over sized tyre models - i.e. nothing 'monster'.

Budget is limited to around €/£200 per car, incl. delivery (I live in Sweden-post is around €15-25). 

 

 

Q1. Is the handling difference between say a Sand Viper/Mad Fighter (i.e. DT-02/DT-03) vs a Rising Fighter or a Grass Hopper 2 *monumental*? 

As in - is it almost an impossibility to keep them on the same lap - or is it marginal. I understand the Viper has the upgrades and that the chassis are superior, but as an overall build - is the difference untenable. (I ask because I prefer the look of the Grasshopper and Rising Fighter to the Viper - but my son and I don't want to be left behind... I also understand it's a lot down to the driver. I'm an experienced driver, they are not.) 

 

Q2. Do the Sand Viper type of buggys come with an ESC? Or do I have to buy that separately? If so, what is a good-enough budget ESC to start off with?

Q3. At the €30-45 price, 2-4 channel stick controllers are limited. I've seen one from Absima (SR2S), one from Carson, and one from Planet. Are they all pretty much of a muchness at that price bracket or can someone recommend one over the others? 

 

Q4. Is there a marked difference between run time between say a 3000 vs 1200 or a 2000mah Nimh battery? Or are we only talking 3-4 mins? And - - what is the average run time these days with a 540 motor from 3000mah battery? I am familiar with Lipo batteries, (as I play Airsoft) - so that might be a possibility instead? 

Q5. Is it easy to fit a Holiday Buggy body shell onto say a Sand Viper chassis? Both are DT-02, I believe? I just love the Holiday B shell but would like the Viper upgrades and motor out of the box. . . 

 

Many thanks to in advance.

 

M. 

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

If you're going to a carpark, consider getting some TT01/TT02 touring cars instead.  The buggies for the most part won't handle as sharply as a touring car on pavement, and they won't run through grass very well unless they are the 'monster' type.  I'd spring for some base TT02 kits, ball bearings, and some steel pinions.  Stick with the friction dampers initially; they work just fine with the kit silver can motor.  The kits come with ESCs.  All you'll need is a transmitter, receiver, servo, batteries, and chargers.

Once you have a TT02 built, you can go in several directions with it.  For example, you can raise the ride height of the chassis, add rally tires/wheels, and go driving though the dirt.  Or, you can lock the rear differential, keep the same ride height, add drift wheels/tires, and do some basic drifting/sliding around obstacles at the same car park.  Or leave it stock and do some grip racing on the pavement.  There's some replay value in the chassis just by reconfiguring it and changing wheels/tires.

Where in Sweden?  I was just there last November for work. 

[TurnipJF 9192]

Q1:

Yes, the two chassis types are in different leagues. If the Rising FIghter/GHII was driven exceptionally well and the DT-02/DT-03 exceptionally badly, they could potentially end on the same lap, but with drivers of comparable skill, the independent suspension chassis will have an overwhelming advantage over the motor pod chassis.

Q2:

It depends on the seller and their route of import really. Some kits come with them, some without. Generally if supplied with an ESC it will be the TBLE-02, and if you have to supply your own, the TBLE-02 is a good option if wanting to try brushless power, while the 1060 is a good brushed choice. Personally, I think the TBLE-02 mated to a 13.5t "Bluebottle" brushless motor is an excellent match to these chassis, affordable and quick without being ludicrously overpowered and dangerous.

Q3:

Functionally they are much of a muchness, but there is a big variation in build quality and feel. The Carsons feel weak and tacky, the Absimas a bit better, and I haven't tried a Planet yet. The Flysky sets are also a good shout in this price bracket.

Q4:

If you already have familiarity with LiPo and charging gear to suit, I wouldn't even bother with NiMH. As for runtime, impossible to state with any degree of accuracy as it depends on too many variables, from driving style to gearing to track layout.

Q5:

Yes, very easy. The chassis tubs are identical, you just need the appropriate bodies and mounts.

 

[Jonathon Gillham 4606]

I think the difference between a Grasshopper and Sand Viper will be massive. My son was having a hard time getting around our backyard track in his Novafox and we swapped cars so he ran the TT02B (current entey level 4wd buggy, the Plasma Edge looks best) and improved immediately. The Boomerang is the same, just too old. If you like the rereleases then look at the 90s on, Top Force, Super Astute etc. They seem to perform as well as the modern stuff.

Why not talk yo your friend and all buy the same? Restrict hopups to the basics like bearings and then run a control tyre so you remove the cars from the equation. 

In saying that we've run 'run what you brung' races and found all the cars from Novafox to TT02B to be similar in the backyard races when there are enough cars as they can be carnage. 2 cars is ddifferent though as you get clear track if you pass someone.

Batteries - basically the relationship between runtime and MaH is linear, so a 3000mah will give twice the runtime of a 1500mah. I have 3800mah and they give 30mins plus in the backyard. I think 3000mah is about the sweet spot as the bigger mah mean the batteries are physically bigger, so it canbe a struggle to fit them in some cars. Lipo is a good idea since you know what you're doing with them and they make the car a lot faster, similar to a 8.4v nimh probably. Just get hardcase ones that won't get damaged in a crash.

Do you have to have stick radios? I find young kids find them easier but most people prefer the wheel type. There are a lot more options around for wheel. Look at how many model memory they have and the cost of extra receivers too, as some may cost a bit more upfront but be a lot cheaper in the long run. This is somewhere I think its worth spending a bit more as you can use this for years and have all your cars on it.

[Markspark2 2]

Thanks for the replies so far. 

 

speedy_beans: I should've explained the car park is *very* gravelly and the 2 other sites are unused building sites with loose dirt and fair amount of shallow dips, basically perfect for the buggy size and shape.  Plus, my friend has his heart on a buggy as opposed to a road car.

But - I have looked at that chassis you recommended, and I love it. I really have my eye on that for the future. That's great advice too about the setups! Thx.

ps. We're down south about 25 mins from Malmö.

 

Turnip: It's as I feared. The DT-02 will leave it standing   Such a shame. I watched a whole series of hopping up the Rising Fighter videos and was gearing up for that. But, as with most things, you should start with a good base and work from there. 

I should point out that it'll be only bearings that will be tampered with (and oiled shocks if they don't have). We won't be upgrading the motors - we really don't need any more speed. Thanks for the other tips.

 

Jonathon: I think it will be that - i.e. we all buy the same car. And it will probably be the Sand Viper after reading all your advice. Though I like the Hornet/Gr Hopper style, the Sand Viper is a reasonable second choice - - which will probably end up as a Holiday Buggy or Beetle of some kind in the future when I swap out the body shell. 

Thx again. 

[Juggular 4964]

Welcome to the slippery slope. 

 

Might as well have fun sliding down.  

 

 

Q1:  (Just what @TurnipJF said)

Yes, the two chassis types are in different leagues. If the Rising FIghter/GHII was driven exceptionally well and the DT-02/DT-03 exceptionally badly, they could potentially end on the same lap, but with drivers of comparable skill, the independent suspension chassis will have an overwhelming advantage over the motor pod chassis.

Grasshopper was 1984. DT02 came out in 2005.  Both are simple chassis the way Tamiya does so well.  But 31 year age gap shows.  

Q2:  Many do include an ESC.  If it doesn't, no big deal.  Hobbywing 1060 is about $20 USD.  It can handle a lot faster brushed motors too.  

Q3:  Flysky GT3C is the cheapest radio.  Despite the rock-bottom price, it's quite functional and reliable.  The build is not high quality for obvious reasons.  I put in a 1280 bearing (I think) on the wheel and it's as smooth as any Futaba I had before.  But even before, it was okay.  Trims and servo reverse is basic.  It has a 3rd channel button (which I don't know how to use), End Point Adjustment to limit the throttle and steering, dual rate, exponential, ABS braking.  And 10 model memory (one radio to rule 10 cars--but not if you want to run 4 cars at the same time--you need 4 radios for that. Each radio set comes with 1 receiver).  

Many radios have similar functionalities these days.  The most significant difference between a cheap radio and expensive Futaba and Sanwa, etc, is the response time.  Expensive radios have less response time, like 8 millisecond or something. Cheap radios may have 20 millisecond response time.  Traditionally, scientists thought human eyes can recognize images in about 100 millisecond (1/10th of a second).  But MIT discovered in 2014 that some people can do as little as 13 milliseconds. (about 1/90th of a second)  So, while 12 millisecond difference doesn't sound much, it does add up in racing.  But I doubt that I could tell when I'm bashing in my backyard.  

Q4:  What @Jonathon Gillham said.  

Batteries - basically the relationship between runtime and MaH is linear, so a 3000mah will give twice the runtime of a 1500mah. 

The difference between airsoft packs and RC backs is the "C-rating."  It's basically how big the floodgate is (Amp).  Airsoft uses about 1-2A, I think.  Tamiya connectors are designed to handle about 1A of current.  540 motors for RC uses about 1A too.  But many RC cars use upgraded motors.  Hot brushless motors can consume even more electricity at given time.  So RC batteries are designed to discharge like 5-10Amps.   

Many RC car batteries claim to have "100C" rating.  3000mA battery at 100C rating means 300Amp. That's probably false-advertising. (or at the superconductive state--in space.)  Why do I think it's false?  I watched a battery test, Japanese and Korean 18650 batteries have over 90% of the capacity they claim.  Chinese batteries, however, would say 9800mAh, but it would only have 1200mAh.  lol...  That's like 88% lie.  (Makes you wonder if Covid-19 numbers they release might also be 12% of what they claim)

However, when it comes to RC batteries, they don't lie as much.  Because your charger will tell you the actual amps. And Samsung, LG and Sony don't make RC car batteries anyway.  Anything over 10C should do fine.  In case of a 3000mAh battery, that's 30A.  Even a 9.5turn brushless motor would use about 5A burst.  These 18560 cannot really be used for RC use because their amp draw (C rating) is limited to 2A. Just like many airsoft batteries.  

 

 

Q5:  I think the difference is oil shocks?  

If so, you can check which is cheaper, the shell or the shocks.  It might be cheaper to buy Holiday Buggy kit with extra oil shocks, or it might be cheaper to buy Sand Viper and buy an extra Holiday Buggy shell.  

No matter what you do, I'd order bearings first. (Except for Sand Viper, it comes with cheap metal shield bearings--I've got dozens of those. I replaced them with cheap rubber shielded Chinese bearings)  Bearings make the cars go 20% faster.  Less drag means batteries last longer too.  

You are going to need about 14 per car (you can download the manual and count the bearings because every car requires different amount).  You may need about 60 bearings if your kit doesn't come with them (it's rare for Tamiya cars to have bearings).  Look up "5x11x4mm bearings."  Tamiya calls them "1150."  If Tamiya says "1150 plastic bearing" that's not a bearing. It's a bushing.  If Tamiya says "1150 Ball Bearing" that's an actual metal shielded bearing.  

I'd say 75% of Tamiya bearings are 1150 in size.  15% is 850 bearings (5x8x2.5mm).  The other 10% are weird bearings like 1050 or 1280, 1060, 630, etc.  Actual engineering naming convention seems 'inner bore x out diameter x thickness.'   Tamiya flips inner and outer, and omits the thickness.  You could find 10 bearings for about $4 USD.  So $24 should equip 4 buggies.  Hobby shops do sell pre-selected bearings for about $15 per set. That'd be $60.  The quality difference is marginal.