Tamiya manufacturing cost/designs/processes

[Saito2 6686]

Having spend my life restoring 1:1 cars (which sometimes involves deciphering and replicating old manufacturing processes to re-create parts) or actually working in a manufacturing environment, I have somewhat of a passing interest in the whole process. Take, for instance, I began to wonder why Tamiya held out for so long sticking to the use of PC and ABS plastics when other companies had begun the use of reinforced plastics. Tamiya has done more of this as time passes but I wouldn't call it prolific in the line up. Now there's lots of augments why they stick with the materials they do but one I hadn't considered is mold life. Those glass reinforced plastics affect mold longevity and when you punch out the number of cars Tamiya does (adding the amount of parts sharing across platforms to boot) its another reason to stick with PC and ABS a lot of times which many times still does the job adequately (with exception of body mounts, a Lunch Box is fine with the materials it has for instance).

Another process I've been thinking of is the standard metal dogbone and drive cup arrangement in the up level DT02 vs the plastic/metal amalgamation version found in lower DT02s and all DT03s. The metal version is obviously mostly machine work with a pin insertion at the process end. I imagine the plastic/metal version cuts down on machining processes (and possible tooling expense) as well as metal material usage. On the other hand, there is now plastic usage added in as well as extra processes involved with molding plastic over the axle stubs to create the drive cups. The dogbones are simple enough, molding a dogbone, then simply pressing metal pins at the end. Its obvious that, in the end, Tamiya saves money with the plastic/metal version and has determined it adequate for intended usage. Still, they must not consider it equivalent as they offered up-rated full metal versions in the higher end DT02 cars which also require new splined bevel gears to mate with them.   

We all know the deal with aluminum pinions and plastic bushings. What strikes me is how American that thought process is behind them. 1:1 US automakers began practicing the process of "planned obsolesce".  They would spend 3 cents on a part as long as it would get the vehicle past the warranty period. The car would gradually fall apart, necessitating replacement. This where US cars got a bad reputation for quality starting in the 70's. Concurrently, the Japanese were making inroads in to the US market by this time. They hit some stumbling blocks, for sure, but eventually got things together. They Japanese would spend 10 cents on the same part and thus over time gained a reputation for reliability at the same time US cars were sliding downhill. Whats curious is Tamiya here, is doing the more "US" thing here. Aluminum pinions and plastic bushings are cheap to make but require frequent replacement. We Tamiya faithful know to bin this stuff from the get-go and start with proper steel pinions and ball bearings. 

Any additional thoughts?

Edit: I think the tone of this post went awry in my last paragraph. What I intended to be a look at both the hows and whys of the manufacturing process took a negative stance when I brought up aluminum pinions and plastic bushings at the end. I apologize. When I began working in the automotive trade, I dealt with many late 70's and 80's vehicles still in use at that time. My personal experiences with the American versions of those cars was not good (again, I apologize to fans of those era American cars as well, these were merely my experiences and I am in no way declaring them absolute facts devoid of debate) and perhaps I let that bleed into my feelings for aluminum pinions and plastic bushings which was foolish on my part. Obviously, I have looked too closely at the specifics while missing the bigger picture, inadvertently or not, being too critical of Tamiya in the process. For that, I again apologize, both to Tamiya for missing their point in making fun RC vehicles and to the fans that love them. Please take my criticisms of aluminum pinions and plastic bushing with a grain of salt. I apologize to those that found them abrasive or unwarranted as well as for my negativity.

  

[Toolmaker72 507]

If everything was made to not wear out, parts would be hugely expensive.  Imagine a slightly crashed damaged car and replacing bent parts before there time.  It would be hugely expensive and possibly make nearly all repairs too costly and hence write the vehicle off.  So insurance companies know this and load premiums accordingly.  A vehicle that is cheap to repair is a vehicle that is cheaper to insure.  Now when vehicle manufacturers have warranty issues if the warranty claim numbers are sufficient then the failed part will be re-engineered only if there is no or very little added cost to the vehicle.  If the cost to re-engineer is too great then the service interval will be re-calculated to stop warranty claims.   
People think a well engineered car is a car that has a longer service period between each service.  All engineers know that more frequent servicing gives better reliability.    As a toolmaker working for a vehicle manufacturer it’s easier to repair and replace machine parts that are less complicated than something designed for longer life and ultimately using more complicated machine processes and material type.  Down time in a high production facility is bad news, so being able to repair and replace quickly and easily is key.  Complicated breakdowns with hard to find replacement parts due to lasting a long time doesn’t actually work in the long run. 
Fixing and repairing is what I’ve done all my working life.  🙂

[Hobgoblin 1059]

Maybe not exactly American. It's just a perfectly capitalist business plan and perhaps America is the first/last/only country with a true capitalist mindset. 

In my heart as a consumer I would love every product that I purchase to be this gold standard part with care, craftsmanship and a 25 year to lifetime warranty. 

In my head as someone from the other side of the counter, trying to make a product like this is a quick way to insanity or bankruptcy (or both!) 

I kind of like the precut corners for toys like this as you can quickly make your own parts with all the care, love and quality it deserves. The only caveat is they need to at least admit that it will need work or upgrades and is a project base. I refuse to be thankful for rubbish starter electronics and plastic bushings 

[A-Baum 352]

Mentioning the "American" way of doing things reminds me of a video I saw of a speech/town hall by a Hewlett-Packard executive once to a group of middle managers and shareholders.  At one point in time when I was early in my IT career (late 90s, early 2000s), HP printers were indestructible.  Bullet proof, full of metal parts and frames and reliable as badword. You'd swap out the worn down rollers every once in a while and that's it.  So this executive started his speech by bringing out a mid range laser and stood on it.  Then he jumped up and down on it and asked why he should be able to do that to a printer.  His point was the printers were over-engineered and were too costly to make, they were also too reliable which hurt sales.  HP has since made cheaper stuff and I think they've suffered for it.  Similar mindset with American cars and possibly hobby market.  However I think the motivation in the hobby market is strictly price.  Look at cars like the Egress/Avante. Unaffordable to most.  Why?  High quality, over-engineered.  You need the "throwaway" hornets and grasshoppers to get people in the door.

[Saito2 6686]

Its not necessarily that everything needs to be made to last forever nor top quality parts used in every instance. Hornet, Grasshoppers, Lunch Boxes and any number of leisure oriented models don't need reinforced plastics. On the other hand, items obviously geared for some track use, like the DF03 or the Top Force back in the day, could have been made of better materials. Kyosho was not perfect, though they seemed to grasp this concept. Lower end stuff was more Tamiya-like while any higher end stuff, with competition aspirations, was built to a higher standard.

1 hour ago, Toolmaker72 said:

People think a well engineered car is a car that has a longer service period between each service.  All engineers know that more frequent servicing gives better reliability.

Yes, and this is a thought process I tend to forget most people adhere to. As a mechanic, I tend to follow service intervals. To me, a well engineered car is one that has a long life WITH proper service over time not one that does not require service. Its when parts fail for no apparent reason other than being poorly engineered or underspec-ed or simply cheapened for lower initial cost that I get irritated. Still, not everything needs to be built to the utmost depending on its market and usage. Mercedes were well-built at one time and I would not expect a Chevy Cavalier to be to the same standard at that time. On the other hand, I find the TT02B rear geartrain underspec-ed. No amount of maintenance fixes that. 

Aluminum pinions and bushing have no place in our hobby grade RC cars other than cost control. Both are detrimental to the parts around them and nether perform adequately. Aluminum pinions are easier/cheaper to make than steel ones. That's it. They immediately begin to wear, producing a grinding paste that circulates through the whole gearbox over time. Bushings are the same deal. Aside from being detrimental to performance (which isn't my main concern, I have no qualms with leaving room for improvement in some cases), they are not easy to service nor replace. They also harm surrounding parts over time, like axle shafts, by wearing away at them.  

1 hour ago, Toolmaker72 said:

Complicated breakdowns with hard to find replacement parts due to lasting a long time doesn’t actually work in the long run.

True. This has been a problem for me in the repair of certain German equipment used in manufacturing. I can tolerate a part being difficult to source if its considered a non-wear item. Totally understandable. But having a complex assembly in conjunction with hard-to-source replacement parts is a bad situation to find oneself in. At one time, I found Mercedes to be actually relatively simple, well built and reliable while BMWs were needlessly overly complex. I guess when I pay for quality, I expect quality, as a consumer. I'm not angry when a Harbor Freight tool fails. Its expected.   

[Toolmaker72 507]

Another aspect is with the generation change, there is a lot of reliance on computer designed everything.  I think it’s a second thought about things that break more easily now. Products are fashionable so are designed to look flash but inside are shoddy. I think electronics especially.  
with regards to 1:1 cars that is also partly true.  So now the mechanical engineering can be better the fashion side of things limits the product life.  
With regards to tamiya still using nylon bearings? No idea.  Maybe the tooling just hasn’t ever worn out so that supplies no cost parts.  Enables Tamiya to offer upgrade parts.  I remember original grasshopper models didn’t even have nylon bearings, they were just plastic off the same sprue as the gearbox casing.  Also Tamiya don’t offer any mileage warranties on gearbox assemblies lol so no need  for them to worry about worn shafts etc. hence kits supplied with nylon bearings. 

 

 

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

To me it seems like Tamiya's heritage as a static model manufacturer comes into play here.  There were probably calculated choices to mold certain parts instead of sourcing metal ones.  Plastic bushings are a great example where they mostly work for a casual hobbyist.  The car might run a touch more slowly and there could be some wear over time, but you can actually build the model and use it with plastic bushings successfully.  It's the same thing with TT01/DF02 center prop shafts; those are molded out of plastic and are known to warp and chatter at higher speeds with more powerful motors.  But, with the kit silver can they are mostly ok for the casual user.  I imagine the aluminum pinion gears are the same thing.  For the occasional run with limited motor power, they work.

I suppose there's some insight from Tamiya's book, Master Modeler, in that the founder makes a few comments about how too much power, too much seriousness, etc. ruins the fun of the hobby.  I'm paraphrasing, but what he's implying is limited power, simple construction, keeping it fun and not serious is central to the Tamiya brand.  Couple that with their core competency in plastic part design and molding processes, and it kind of explains why Tamiya kits may have plastic parts where metal is normal in other brands.  It's also interesting to dwell on his perspective that making the hobby too serious kills all the fun; you could look at RC racing track attendance globally and think about what experiences people have there, and whether they stick with it or not.  In my local area I've seen several tracks start and close a year later.

I suppose as consumers we could make different choices when buying Tamiya products.  They did/do make a mid-range line of kits, including DN01, DB01/DB02, TA, TB, FF, and CR chassis and various bodies.  The plastics in those kits tend to be glass-reinforced nylon instead of ABS/polycarbonate.  They come with ball bearings, oil dampers, and turnbuckles for adjusting the suspension by default.  More of the moving parts are made of metal.  The DT/DF/TT/M/CC/CW chassis are the ones that come with plastic bushings, friction dampers, non-adjustable suspensions, and more plastic drivetrain parts.  So the choice is really yours; step up to the mid-range kits that have TRF DNA in them, or continue to buy the entry and re-re kits and then hop them up.  It seems like the market has spoken, though, as the DN and DB are mostly gone, the TA and TB only come as chassis kits now, there hasn't been much new with the FF since the EVO 4, and the CRs are getting thin on the ground as well.  You were all supposed to buy more of these to tell Tamiya to keep making them, but you bought TT01s instead... 

Don't take my ribbing seriously; I just think there's a mixture of heritage, founder perspectives, core competencies, and market behavior that leads Tamiya to design and manufacture the way it does.  The fact that it isn't the "fastest name in radio control" or 27-time IFMAR champion sets it apart from others. Tamiya knows its niche.

[Toolmaker72 507]

Reading above I have to be honest, I prefer the basic kits.  Grasshopper 2, Hornet, Mad Bull and the frog/brat/Blackfoot/monster beetle.  None are brilliant but they provide an easy upgrade route which makes them graunch gearboxes, allows too much wheelspin and easy to flip over but the best is being able to cheaply and quickly repair them.  As a kid they were not bashers but our speed machines.

 As an adult I prefer the hard plastic bodies to spend a little extra time to get a good paint finish.  I’ve rebuilt the old 80’s and early 90’s models and other than straightening a few steering rods and drive shafts most have lasted remarkably well just really needing tlc on the body or a replacement body and fresh set of tyres 😊

 

[markbt73 5316]

20 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

To me it seems like Tamiya's heritage as a static model manufacturer comes into play here.  There were probably calculated choices to mold certain parts instead of sourcing metal ones.  Plastic bushings are a great example where they mostly work for a casual hobbyist.  The car might run a touch more slowly and there could be some wear over time, but you can actually build the model and use it with plastic bushings successfully.  It's the same thing with TT01/DF02 center prop shafts; those are molded out of plastic and are known to warp and chatter at higher speeds with more powerful motors.  But, with the kit silver can they are mostly ok for the casual user.  I imagine the aluminum pinion gears are the same thing.  For the occasional run with limited motor power, they work.

I suppose there's some insight from Tamiya's book, Master Modeler, in that the founder makes a few comments about how too much power, too much seriousness, etc. ruins the fun of the hobby.  I'm paraphrasing, but what he's implying is limited power, simple construction, keeping it fun and not serious is central to the Tamiya brand.  Couple that with their core competency in plastic part design and molding processes, and it kind of explains why Tamiya kits may have plastic parts where metal is normal in other brands.  It's also interesting to dwell on his perspective that making the hobby too serious kills all the fun; you could look at RC racing track attendance globally and think about what experiences people have there, and whether they stick with it or not.  In my local area I've seen several tracks start and close a year later.

I suppose as consumers we could make different choices when buying Tamiya products.  They did/do make a mid-range line of kits, including DN01, DB01/DB02, TA, TB, FF, and CR chassis and various bodies.  The plastics in those kits tend to be glass-reinforced nylon instead of ABS/polycarbonate.  They come with ball bearings, oil dampers, and turnbuckles for adjusting the suspension by default.  More of the moving parts are made of metal.  The DT/DF/TT/M/CC/CW chassis are the ones that come with plastic bushings, friction dampers, non-adjustable suspensions, and more plastic drivetrain parts.  So the choice is really yours; step up to the mid-range kits that have TRF DNA in them, or continue to buy the entry and re-re kits and then hop them up.  It seems like the market has spoken, though, as the DN and DB are mostly gone, the TA and TB only come as chassis kits now, there hasn't been much new with the FF since the EVO 4, and the CRs are getting thin on the ground as well.  You were all supposed to buy more of these to tell Tamiya to keep making them, but you bought TT01s instead... 

Don't take my ribbing seriously; I just think there's a mixture of heritage, founder perspectives, core competencies, and market behavior that leads Tamiya to design and manufacture the way it does.  The fact that it isn't the "fastest name in radio control" or 27-time IFMAR champion sets it apart from others. Tamiya knows its niche.

To be honest, if that attitude of "just have fun and don't worry about performance numbers" is where their designs come from, then I'm behind them 100%. I've tried the speed thing, both in RC and 1:1, and it's just too much work. Too many things to go wrong. Too many things to think about. I would rather just find a patch of loose dirt and do donuts than worry about all the baggage that comes with chasing a speed milestone or setting up a perfect race car. And you can do that just fine with plastic dogbones, aluminum pinions, silver-can motors, and yes, even plastic bushings.

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I pulled my copy of Master Modeler back out to pinpoint where my assertion comes from, and I ended up re-reading about half the book again!

Anyhow, on page 94 Tamiya-san recalls the collapse of the slot car craze and points to the way Tamiya structures its products and competitions:

"The raging fires of the slot car craze died down as soon as the ban took effect.  Orders dwindled away, and businessmen left with vast stocks of cars they were unable to sell made ironic jokes about 'stock car racing.'"

"My theory was that another reason the craze ended so suddenly was because it had turned geeky and fanatical too rapidly.  Exquisite hand-crafted chassis of a quality that manufacturers relying on mass production could never achieve, motors souped up to generate extra speed--these kinds of gimmicky products were insanely expensive, costing over ten thousand yen.  This was not apparently expensive enough to deter the fanatics who went on buying them regardless."

"At the race tracks it ended up that whoever had spent the most money on fancy equipment won.  Once any kind of hobby has achieved maturity, fanatical enthusiasts of this kind will inevitably start to crop up.  The problem with the slot car phenomenon was that even before a broad group of beginner fans had been fostered at entry level, the craze had already turned into a high-priced gimmick war for geeks."

"Tamiya slot cars were also sold abroad, so the collapse of the craze was not a massive blow for us.  But several companies did go under.  After a short life of only five years, slot cars disappeared totally from Japan.  This made me aware of how harmful a thing a craze can be, but it also showed me how important it was to foster entry-level enthusiasts.  Let me rephrase that:  I realized that it was important to create the right kind of environment for people to enjoy the whole model experience."

"That is why Tamiya went on to sell tools, paints, paint brushes and airbrushes especially for model makers.  And that is why we established different levels (beginners, elementary schoolers, and junior high schoolers) and detailed rules for radio-controlled car races to make sure that everyone could enjoy competing fairly and squarely."

"In fact all the support systems that Tamiya went on to develop were the result of the hard lessons learned in the slot car craze."

Some of this should sound familiar when it comes to RC racing...  How many times have you heard someone complain that the "stock" class is all about battery, ESC, and motor wars...  Even when it comes to Mini4WD, he talks about how mismatched experienced modelers and beginners are when it comes to competitions.  And, as he points out, children don't like to play games when they know they're going to lose.  Remember when some of us moaned that Tamiya never created a short course truck for sale?  They probably saw fanaticism and a craze, and opted to stay away.

Throughout the book I see Tamiya-san's focus on children and enthusiasts, a passion about details, growth in technological capability and manufacturing, and an interest in creating a good experience for customers.  So I really do think through their history, culture, core competencies, and observations of market behavior they have decided some kits are molded in ABS/PC, have aluminum pinions, friction dampers/spring holders, silver can motors, plastic bushings, etc. and that's all right.  Those of us who want a little more, we buy the steel pinion, ball bearing set, and oil dampers for another $35 and get on with the build.  And if we want a little more, then those mid-range kits have the better plastics and better standard hardware.  The TRF stuff is for the "geeks and fanatics" among us (recalling Tamiya-san's words).

Anyhow, it is what it is.  Tamiya will do what it thinks is best.  I'm less excited about new chassis these days; I'm more excited when a new body comes out (like the Karmann Ghia!).

[Saito2 6686]

I like the idea that there's a Tamiya for every buyer. Brushless was never my thing and I cling to the old bulletproof 540 silvercans. ABS/PC and friction shocks can be just fine for great fun. Its probably why I always wind up returning my Lunch Box to stock. Its carefree and just works beautifully that way. I have to admit (and this is purely observational) I've never seen such support for aluminum pinions and plastic bushings on Tamiyaclub before though.

[Toolmaker72 507]

I’ve never had or found a worn out aluminium pinion in any of my secondhand purchases.  The brass pinions seem to have more wear from 380 motor grasshoppers and monster beetles but even then a good clean of the nylon gears shows very little wear if any and once regreased the gearboxes are good to go again 🙂.  Front axles seem soft.  Probably a mixture of grit/dirt and grease rubbing between the nylon 2wd front wheel bearings.  I’ve measured these worn ones and they are usually about 0.15mm smaller on the diameter but the axle is a tad small to start with when new which doesn’t help.  Fitting ballraced bearings really need a better toleranced diameter otherwise you are no better off.  

[Saito2 6686]

My experience has been the opposite in respect to pinions. I have found less wear on brass pinions and dramatic wear on aluminum ones. 

Both these Tamiya pinions are the same pitch (though different tooth count). The bottom is a new, unused one. The top one came from a used buggy. It caused severe wear to the spur. The rest of the gearbox was filled with a mixture of grease and aluminum particles. The other gears were saved, though I never could quite get the dark "stain" out of them. This scenario has been fairly commonplace for me on older, well- used restoration candidates. This has just been my personal experience. Your mileage may vary. I guess this doesn't seem to be the case every time.

I agree the front axles seem soft. I've got some pretty grooved ones from bushings that weren't serviced properly. I agree about the ballraces too. If the inner race spins on the axle, it does no good.

Edit:I apologize if this post came across as a rebuttal to Toolmaker's findings. The above picture was simply my typical findings and does not represent a hard and fast rule of the results of using aluminum pinions. I don't want it to come across as tit-for-tat debate fodder. The breadth of other's life experiences likely supersedes my own. No negativity implied.

[Toolmaker72 507]

Hey no offence taken,  it’s good to chat 🙂.  

[Big Jon 684]

I've always preferred the mid-range kits for their complexity and ingenuity, particularly in comparison to race-type kits. The entry-level kits have always seemed too simple and toy-like, with several exceptions, of course. 

Some of the cost cutting on the entry-level kits makes absolute sense, like the JIS screws, materials choices, hard tires, and friction shocks. I'd prefer them to come with Oilite bushings and steel pinions, however, and most could really benefit from better servo savers. They make an ideal starting point to our hobby, and there's really no point in offering a truly beautiful body set on a high-performance chassis.

The mid-range kits are the ones where cost cutting makes much less sense. There's no reason that the DF-03 didn't get modern materials, for example. The CR should have had all fiber-reinforced plastics and better hardware. TA/TB chassis kits should have had all hex hardware for years. Now, with the exception of re-releases, we don't have any mid-range off road buggies left, so there's not much to argue. I will say that the new CC02 looks like a nice step forward, even though it still has JIS screws.

As for the true high-end, I sure don't see any cost cutting in any of the TRF offerings. Absolutely beautiful cars.

[Toolmaker72 507]

I was taking a kyosho double dare gearbox apart earlier today to replace the plastic and metal bearings for ballraced versions.  I’ve had this model from new and always ran a 8.4v battery in it for a bit extra speed on the standard motors.  I was expecting worn shafts etc and was pleasantly surprised to find no wear at all. Both the motor pinions are brass on this model and they looked almost new.  I’m a bit gobsmacked to how perfect all the moving metal parts were.  Not complaining though 🙂

 Maybe the Tamiya nylon gears are out of tolerance compared to the motor pinions hence possible wear?

[SuperChamp82 743]

Completely agree with @speedy_w_beans

Tamiya saw the social and commercial necessity for young entrants long before a broad line of (perfectly good but ultimately doomed) old school, Japanese competitors - Otaki being a perfect example / Kyosho just copied quicker 

Tamiya also (with a few notable exceptions) rarely over indulged any new fad - or over invested in any individual model / series ... the 959 / GrB and Avante Series being obvious attempts at bravery over cash 

All that inevitably fostered everything @Saito2 describes - kits simple enough to invite new followers (with cost compromises universally inherent) plus optional (and profligating) hop ups to keep us nerds + tinkerers happy ..,

Lets not forget, without new blood both Tamiya and this forum will fold with time ? 

And without new kits (however flawed) we’d all get bored of grumbling about legacy problems in here 😂

Yes - a load of models end up as a cost based decision drawing on mold longevity, piece part costs and life cycle sums vs cash 

Does my 9 year old little lady care building her first Comical Avante ?

Nope - and there’s our future 👍