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Bwaaatch

Brushless in a Comical with NiMH and standard TBLE-02 ESC. Recommendations?

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Considering motor options for a new Comical Hornet.

This project is an odd one, as I already have two comical but was tempted by the deal at Jadlams recently. I have some lovely (and huge) Chinese Monster Beetle slick tires and wheels, and bunch of bling Yeah Racing all parts and shocks arriving soon. So this machine is designed to look good, and perhaps get occasional light running on flat surfaces. A kind of ridiculous street racer vibe.

I'm trying to keep the stock ESC and don't want to invest in Lipo when I have a decent NiMH setup going.

BUT … I'm curious to try brushless power …

So the question is:

  • Is there any point in brushless with this setup? 
  • Will it rinse batteries in record time?
  • Are regular NiMH even viable here?
  • Is there any flaw in my plan? (looks like the ESC is happy with any brushless down to 10.5T
  • Assuming I fit the hop-up pinion, is there anything ales i should do to prepare for an increase in power?
  • Any recommendations on number of turns?
  • Any recommendations on a motor that might just look really cool in a rig like this :-) ? My colour scheme likely to be black, white, green and one other accent colour TBC (though perhaps in pink/purple/blue area)

 

Thanks as ever!

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If you do not want anymore speed than the stock silvercan, than just stay with that as it sounds like you do not intend to use it frequently. If you want to go with a brushless setup, NIMH batteries will be OK, but I would highly recommend going to Lipo. Brushless motors are much more efficient than a brushed motor, so your runtimes will probably go up. As for a motor recommendation, look for a motor in the 17.5-13.5t range. The generic "Bluebottle" and Turnigy trackstar motors are the best cheap options and are below $40 and will work perfectly with the stock ESC. 

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27 minutes ago, Bash said:

If you do not want anymore speed than the stock silvercan, than just stay with that as it sounds like you do not intend to use it frequently. If you want to go with a brushless setup, NIMH batteries will be OK, but I would highly recommend going to Lipo. Brushless motors are much more efficient than a brushed motor, so your runtimes will probably go up. As for a motor recommendation, look for a motor in the 17.5-13.5t range. The generic "Bluebottle" and Turnigy trackstar motors are the best cheap options and are below $40 and will work perfectly with the stock ESC. 

Thanks Bash,

When you say you would highly recommend Lipo, I guess this is because it will be faster/more powerful which makes sense. But in my situation, is there any point in exploring brushless at all? Will the NiMH just remove any performance benefit (although an increase in run time would be aces!)?

I'm trying to figure out if there is a downside to a switch to Brushless … If it's borderline the same, with perhaps some slight upside, I think I will dip more toe in!

Cheers

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Nimh's will work fine with brushless motors and you will feel the power difference. Lipo's will be even better. Even brushless RTR cars/trucks usually come with NImh's.

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I'm not convinced brushless is worth it for the Comicals because of the super low gearing. I put a 13.5 brushelss in mine with the TBLE02S and it just wasn't very quick. The tallest gearing in a Comical is 16.5. Even accounting for the big wheels a 13.5 probably needs something around 8 to come alive. I put one of the cheap black/gold brushed motors in mine, 21t, hobbywing 1060 ESC. It's great! Brushed motors spin fast with lower torque than brushless which suits the low gearings. 

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5 hours ago, Bwaaatch said:

But in my situation, is there any point in exploring brushless at all? Will the NiMH just remove any performance benefit

Not only that, there is the problem of wheelie.  The stronger the motor, the more likely it will back flip.  I've got a Wild Willy 2, which has a heavy 800g resin shell.  If I go back slowly and gun it forward, it flips.  It only has the stock silver can.  I could imagine how bad it would be with a stronger motor.  So Wild Willy 2 remains one of few RCs that has no motor upgrade.  Even with wider wheels, it's tipsy too.  Comical having light Lexan shells, this would be far less likely.  

Having said that, NiMH can draw about 2A burst, barely 3A at most.  LiPo can give you 5-6A burst.  13.5t Brushless can do 3-4A burst.  You can see that NiMH will be the bottleneck. But still, it will do more than the silver can.  

ThunderDragonCy's suggestion is worth exploring.  TBLE02S is a sensored ESC.  Brushless ESC has to wait for the feedback from the motor to adjust.  This back-and-forth slows down the RPM (but it prevents the cogging problem).  TBLE02S is limited to 25t (and 13.5t brushless-in hot weather and taller gearing).  

1) So, you can go with 25t motor for slight boost if you don't want to change the ESC. 

2) You can try 13.5t which also isn't an amazing change, but better than 25t brushed. 

3) You can get Hobbywing 1060 ESC with 21t, 19t, or 17t brushed motor.  

4) Or you can get a cheap 3500 or 4000kv sensorless brusheless combo.  It could give you a cogging problem, but not always.  Sensorless system gives you more punch.  Also get a 3650 smooth can.  3660 uses 5mm shaft.  Motors with fins are actually smaller in size.  Be sure to get a 60A ESC or more.  Sellers can pair 5000KV with 40A, but that's likely to burn out.  60A ESC can handle about 3500kv.  

In all cases, LiPo can simply deliver more Amp hour.  NiMH will limit, but it's not the end of the world considering you may not want the fastest runner unless you've got a wild open space with loose surface.  

 

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Soooo …

I have my buggy built and basic setup has:

  • Trusty stock TBLE-02S
  • Gool RC 21t brushed motor
  • NIMH batteries
  • The hop up pinion

How does it run? NOT FAST ENOUGH! But it is super stable with those wide tyres an nailed stance. Predictably massive understeer issues :-) But this makes it impossible to flip over, so nothing like a regular WR02.

So I'm back to picking a motor. I've realised that my priority really is to just make it go as fast as possible, using NIMH batteries. To this end, Ilm conscious of @ThunderDragonCy's warning that 13.5t brushless simply wasn't that quick. I have a regular comical with a Hobbywing 1060 and Gool RC 17T brushed – yeah, I read a lot of @ThunderDragonCy's posts :-)  – and that goes very nicely … But what if I want more? Am I right in thinking there is no other gearing option here? It's just about delivering the most optimal level of power through the gears?

Options:

Cheers!

IMG_3135.jpeg

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So I’ve been building up my GF01 for the past few months, found more and more titanium parts, the Yeah Racing kit, bling I know, but I really like how stable it is at speed, couldn’t buy a Thrust brushless system on Modelsport, so bought a Hobbywing Max10 3300kv combo, only running NiMH at the moment with deans connectors, I have to say it runs like a dream, there’s nothing comical about it apart from the looks, it’s a beast!

Run times are longer than the stock TLBE02s with a sport tuned motor and so much more powerful / faster on NiMH, I’m sticking a 2s in it next week with all settings dialed down.

Top end speed, it’s probably stable enough now to take a higher kv motor, but I’m not going over 4000kv due to space in my area, plus I don’t want to break anything just for the sake of adding more speed. 

 

 

66727E61-1C38-454C-B3B4-B8A6788E89BE.jpeg

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@Bwaaatch I am flattered 😉 If you are sticking with nimh, brushless isn't really the way to go unless you ditch the tble02s and go for something really really powerful/fast, like 4000kv+. However, there is actually a gearing option. I got a yeah racing 34t spur gear (they are in stock at The Border it would seem https://www.the-border.com/YEAH-RACING-Spur-Gear-For-Tamiya-Wild-Willy-WR02-34T-Motor-Gear-1pc-TAWR-009.html)

Combine this with a 24t pinion running in the 20t position on the tub and you get a massive reduction in gearing/increase in speed. Off the top of my head it is something 16.5 gear 20t kit, 12.3 gear yeah racing spur + 24t pinion. 

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Thanks again everyone!

OK, for any easy life (and cos you guys seem to know stuff!) I am inclined to just combine advice from @ThunderDragonCy and @•Axle , so then I need:

The description on the Easyrun says: "Battery Connector Type:    No Connector" and there is no picture of the power input.

If I plan to use my existing stock of standard Tamiya-compatible NIMH batteries, what do I need to connect this up? I guess I should keep LiPo open asn a option later to keep @Howards happy :-) So do I solder/attached a new Deans connector, then get an adpater for Tamiya?

 

Does this plan sound like it might fly?

  • Haha 1

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On 7/24/2020 at 6:32 AM, •Axle said:

So I’ve been building up my GF01 for the past few months, found more and more titanium parts, the Yeah Racing kit, bling I know, but I really like how stable it is at speed, couldn’t buy a Thrust brushless system on Modelsport, so bought a Hobbywing Max10 3300kv combo, only running NiMH at the moment with deans connectors, I have to say it runs like a dream, there’s nothing comical about it apart from the looks, it’s a beast!

Run times are longer than the stock TLBE02s with a sport tuned motor and so much more powerful / faster on NiMH, I’m sticking a 2s in it next week with all settings dialed down.

Top end speed, it’s probably stable enough now to take a higher kv motor, but I’m not going over 4000kv due to space in my area, plus I don’t want to break anything just for the sake of adding more speed. 

 

 

66727E61-1C38-454C-B3B4-B8A6788E89BE.jpeg

Love this. Makes me nervous that I might need to add a Comical Avante to my fleet, though :)

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9 minutes ago, Bwaaatch said:

Thanks again everyone!

OK, for any easy life (and cos you guys seem to know stuff!) I am inclined to just combine advice from @ThunderDragonCy and @•Axle , so then I need:

The description on the Easyrun says: "Battery Connector Type:    No Connector" and there is no picture of the power input.

If I plan to use my existing stock of standard Tamiya-compatible NIMH batteries, what do I need to connect this up? I guess I should keep LiPo open asn a option later to keep @Howards happy :-) So do I solder/attached a new Deans connector, then get an adpater for Tamiya?

 

Does this plan sound like it might fly?

Connections type, me personally I’ve gone from Tamiya to deans and now have two 6 cell NiMH batteries and the 2s lipo with a deans as well, GF01 with a 20t on NiMH with the 3300kv is very pleasant and definitely a huge upgrade to stock esc with sport tuned, trying out the lipo today for the first time – the car is rapid acceleration wise, plus top end has changed too! I’m happy keeping 1 lipo in circulation for now.

I think this is what was meant;

1) Go with the spur gear upgrade, you’ll get less wheelie and more top end, the motor wouldn’t whine as much either.

2) Go for a brushless combo and drop the standard esc, between 3300kv > 4000kv, I could now say, after using a 2s lipo I really like the way my car is and will not change anything, but would build the same in the future with a higher kv motor.

4000kv and the spur I would be scared of, not too sure what that would do to gears and drive shafts. I know of someone running 5000kv + in a GF01 but he’s done a drifting setup with no grip wheels that are smaller.

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Another thing for me on this is that I do not know the characteristics of your kit with what you’ve done, I know the VW bus WR02, and it was very much a wheelie machine compared to the Gf-01, position of battery is different. I don’t want to recommend you something that won’t be right. With the slicks you’ve got on you’d probably be getting a bit of wheel spin. 😃

I think you’re going to need a program card for any esc you choose, there’s quite a few settings you can change with the Hobbywing.

 

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10 hours ago, •Axle said:

Connections type, me personally I’ve gone from Tamiya to deans and now have two 6 cell NiMH batteries and the 2s lipo with a deans as well, GF01 with a 20t on NiMH with the 3300kv is very pleasant and definitely a huge upgrade to stock esc with sport tuned, trying out the lipo today for the first time – the car is rapid acceleration wise, plus top end has changed too! I’m happy keeping 1 lipo in circulation for now.

I think this is what was meant;

1) Go with the spur gear upgrade, you’ll get less wheelie and more top end, the motor wouldn’t whine as much either.

2) Go for a brushless combo and drop the standard esc, between 3300kv > 4000kv, I could now say, after using a 2s lipo I really like the way my car is and will not change anything, but would build the same in the future with a higher kv motor.

4000kv and the spur I would be scared of, not too sure what that would do to gears and drive shafts. I know of someone running 5000kv + in a GF01 but he’s done a drifting setup with no grip wheels that are smaller.

OK, I hear the warning on combining the upgraded spur AND a 4000kv BL Combo. My use case is a simple one:

  • Hooning it round on flat open spaces.
  • Enjoying going really fast and getting some powerslides and drifts going without tipping over (pic shows how low and wide I've got it)
  • No competition, though perhaps sharing the space with my other buggies in the hands of others.

To that end, I'm super tempted to combine both options and consider it a community service to report back on!

What do you think? Crazy good, or just crazy? And you mention a friend running 5000kv … given that my gap is quite limited in this setup … could I give that a whirl :-) I figure I've come this far, I might as well go nuts … Any other strengthening required if I go there?

Won't hold you responsible for breakages, @•Axle :-)

 

IMG_3126.jpeg

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Ahhhhhhh! – I don’t know what to say, the drifting setup works because everything is moving pretty much freely without grip,  meticulously well oiled gears and bearings, no grip on small tires on a smooth slippery surface.

I would hate for you to go and spend a lot of money on something only to have a few minutes fun and then have something go on it, with the setup my chassis is see-though and I’m checking the pinion and gears for damage every now and again, looking at the drive shafts and the shaft pins as they keep flying out.

You can with the Hobbywing esc dial everything right down, punch and brake force. You can on the transmitter reduce the top end.

It sounds a lot of fun indeed if you can get it working right, I’m actually short of breath thinking about it as they’re only plastic gears.

Im only going to 4000kv with double the gears that the WR02 has to move.

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So...

I have been speaking to Rachid, and he’s assured me that the GF01 platform is very strong indeed, and not to worry about it, he currently has a thunder tiger 5300kv with a Hobbywing esc.

He’s filled the diff with 100000cps oil which is sticky and better for drifting.

Before he turned it into a drifter he ran a 6900kv castle motor in it and assured me that the chassis and gears are strong enough!

I can only presume that with the same gears in the WR02 it will be strong enough, and what is it going to cost if it isn’t? New gears and a motor...

Here’s some photos of his car and a video he kindly let me have to show.

9B791238-027A-4BFC-9FE4-A5716358ECDE.jpeg

D3414D6D-0D65-472D-BA3A-0083B25949F2.jpeg

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Well OK then … Off I go, at my own risk :-)

Really grateful for you checking in with your friend! When i have it running I'll post up a vid.

 

Quote

=========================

So...

I have been speaking to Rachid, and he’s assured me that the GF01 platform is very strong indeed, and not to worry about it, he currently has a thunder tiger 5300kv with a Hobbywing esc.

He’s filled the diff with 100000cps oil which is sticky and better for drifting.

Before he turned it into a drifter he ran a 6900kv castle motor in it and assured me that the chassis and gears are strong enough!

I can only presume that with the same gears in the WR02 it will be strong enough, and what is it going to cost if it isn’t? New gears and a motor...

Here’s some photos of his car and a video he kindly let me have to show.

 

  • Haha 1

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1 hour ago, •Axle said:

he ran a 6900kv castle motor in it

This escalated quickly 

  • Haha 3

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1 hour ago, Bwaaatch said:

Well OK then … Off I go, at my own risk :-)

Really grateful for you checking in with your friend! When i have it running I'll post up a vid.

 

 

I’m going to put my money where my mouth is and buy the 4000kv motor for this setup, so there’s a bunch of fast comical cars going to cause a disturbance across the country.

TIRE GLUE & FOAM INSERTS!!

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2 hours ago, •Axle said:

I’m going to put my money where my mouth is and buy the 4000kv motor for this setup, so there’s a bunch of fast comical cars going to cause a disturbance across the country.

TIRE GLUE & FOAM INSERTS!!

He he! Let's bring the ruckus!

NB, my wheels are pre-glued (but need balancing)

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Dumb question:

Comical WR02s come with a piece of cardboard sandwiched between the motor and the chassis, which the manual describes as the 'motor plate'.

It feels so cheap, and does it really do anything? Can I discard it? Is there bette replacement other than the £35 Tamiya WR02 Motor Guard?

Feels crazy to spend so much on a tasty new motor and connect it to the chassis via a piece of paper …

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