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mtbkym01

This old chestnut! Sport Tuned Motors - advanced timing or not.

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So I’ve started building my Black Clod, and wired up some black sport tuned Motors for it, but then got to thinking, “one of these will run in reverse 🤔” 

So amongst the vast experience that is TC, has anyone, ever been able to establish if these motors actually have advanced timing, or are they just lower turn? I’m really hoping I can use these in this truck.

Cheers

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The black Sport Tuned motors (and Torque Tuned) have a rotation direction arrow on their stickers which leads me to think they are advanced. The current silver Sport Tuned does not however.

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You can see the built in advance in the pictures from this website.  https://fiveeight0sixsix.wordpress.com/2017/04/25/inside-the-tamiya-sport-tuned-motor/

But in looking at the pictures for a while I am convinced one could easily change the timing since the motors end cap is only crimped on. I bet if you had 2 or 3 to mess with you would trash 1 or 2 in order to figure out the best way to "recrimp" the end cap back on at a different advance. Which I believe its completely do-able. Unfortunately I don't own any or I would take on this challenge. My silver cans have a different style tab holding the end caps on than the sport tuned.

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I would suggest 2 silver can sports tuned, rumours on the web are thy are zero timing genuine 23 turn motors, with more power than the black can 27 turn timing advanced motors

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Thank you for starting the thread!   I forgot that I bought this tachometer to test the Sport Tuned motor. 

I used a 3.7v lithium battery. It's easier to test.  I put a tiny reflective sticker on the cut facet of the shaft and tested it.  

fL2LUl1.jpg

I've heard Sport Tuned being 23t.  Maybe older one was a 23t motor. 

But in recent years, Tamiya seems to suggest that it's 25t.  It says "Sport-Tuned Motor, motors over 25 turns."  Especially if it's 23t and advanced timed, it'd take more amp.  

TVLGCAk.jpg

Anyway...

Going the right way (red wire connected to the +) the new (shiny & unused) Sport Tuned showed 11,100 rpm (at 3.7v).  

The wrong way, (red wire connected to the -) it was showing 9,900 rpm (at 3.7v).  

So... the right way was going about 11% faster

It does have advanced timing.  I wouldn't use it for any twin-motor chassis where one motor goes the wrong way.  

 

As a control group, I tested an old (& used) Mabuchi silver can.  I didn't even need reflective tape, the cut facet was shiny enough, I suppose.  

lboPWlD.jpg

Going the right way, it was doing 8,800 rpm at 3.7v.  

Going the wrong way, it was doing 8,600 rpm at 3.7v.  

I don't know why there is a 2% discrepancy.  Maybe because brushes were "broken in" in the right way?  

 

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****, so my black Motors aren’t going to work, bummer, there goes that plan. (It’s more about the looks than anything else for me in this black truck)

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4 hours ago, mtbkym01 said:

****, so my black Motors aren’t going to work, bummer, there goes that plan. (It’s more about the looks than anything else for me in this black truck)

@Juggular has confirmed the 'silver' black can. Will need someone ( @Juggular ? ;)) to confirm the 'black' black can.

Would be great to finally settle this age old mystery. B)

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Hey - I bought 4 of the fake ones from China AliExpress (for looks) and fitted them in my clod 

I ran them in my hand - couldn’t tell any difference running in each direction
 

not v scientific but they are only £5 each plus postage so worth a go

D92vqw8.jpg

 

JJ

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Was having the same thoughts for my Black Clod.

Has anyone painted a silver can?  High temp automotive engine paint?

 

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15 hours ago, Juggular said:

I've heard Sport Tuned being 23t.  Maybe older one was a 23t motor. 

But in recent years, Tamiya seems to suggest that it's 25t.  It says "Sport-Tuned Motor, motors over 25 turns."  Especially if it's 23t and advanced timed, it'd take more amp.  

I wondered about this when I saw that in the instructions too.  I put it down to the Sport Tuned being one of the more popular hop up motors and they wanted to make sure people knew it would work, regardless of whether people think its 23T or 27T.  The turn limits on ESC's are really trying to approximate amp draw right?  And even if it is 23T its won't be drawing that much current as its not nearly as fast as a Super Stock TZ which is a much faster motor.

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actually, Sport tuned still has this nice vintage look, but the carson Cup machine is a qite similar choice, probably even a bit stronger, and has a built in fan at the rotor. Guess that´s also the reason it´s preferred in the Fighter Cup series over the torque tuned that Comes in the kit with some Fighters. If the look isn´t it, it may be an Option to relabel it with a Repro sticker to a new silver "Sports tuned"...

Just my 2 Cents, should be even cheaper than the Sports tuned.

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1 hour ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

even if it is 23T its won't be drawing that much current as its not nearly as fast as a Super Stock TZ which is a much faster motor.

That's another curiosity of mine.  What makes Super Stocks so much faster, when they are just 23t motors?  Sport Tuned might be 25 or 23, but it shouldn't make that much of a difference.  I wonder if Super Stocks are using stronger magnets? 

Anyway...

I keep all my motors oiled.  This motor looks cruddy, so it must have been years since I oiled.  So I added a drop of oil on either side of the axle.  

tPwwkVn.jpg\

2Ap7dR4.jpg

With this stuff. 

4eaQb07.jpg

Going the right way it went up from 8800 to 8900 rpm (at 3.7v). 

Going the wrong way, it went up from 8600 to 8750 rpm (at 3.7v).  

Lubing the axle added about 100 to 150 RPM.  The real benefit is in decreased amps & less wear on the bushings.  Why did going backward increase more?  Maybe bushings did wear in one direction?  I would have thought the brushes would be affected more by wear...

 

hold that thought....  let me try comm lube...

hmmm... that's weird.  Lubing the commutator decreased the RPM from 8900 to 8750 (going forward at 3.7v).   

Maybe 6 drops might have been too much?  But the RPM was much more steady.  Before, it would fluctuate from 8750 to 8840 or so.  After comm drop, it was steady 8750 (give or take 20).   

yWh8KrJ.jpg

[1]  Oiling the axle is a definite plus.  RPM goes up, it wears less, it takes less juice.  

[2]  Oiling the brushes with commutator lubeMaybe not such a good idea.  

(In the name of science, I should take the black Sport Tuned off my Blackfoot and test it)

 

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8 hours ago, Problemchild said:

Hey - I bought 4 of the fake ones from China AliExpress (for looks) and fitted them in my clod 

I ran them in my hand - couldn’t tell any difference running in each direction
 

not v scientific but they are only £5 each plus postage so worth a go

D92vqw8.jpg

 

JJ

Wow they are cheap, have you actually driven it to see if it is an issue?

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19 hours ago, TheMidnight Pumpkin said:

You can see the built in advance in the pictures from this website.  https://fiveeight0sixsix.wordpress.com/2017/04/25/inside-the-tamiya-sport-tuned-motor/

But in looking at the pictures for a while I am convinced one could easily change the timing since the motors end cap is only crimped on. I bet if you had 2 or 3 to mess with you would trash 1 or 2 in order to figure out the best way to "recrimp" the end cap back on at a different advance. Which I believe its completely do-able. Unfortunately I don't own any or I would take on this challenge. My silver cans have a different style tab holding the end caps on than the sport tuned.

But he also found exactly 23 turns of wire inside too...I thought the old conspiracy was that it was a timed 27T and not an actual 23T motor.

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5 minutes ago, nowinaminute said:

But he also found exactly 23 turns of wire inside too...

Yes, so surely they’re not 23t with advanced timing? 

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Maybe safest to go another route in my Clod I think, too many question marks about these things. As @speedy_w_beans said, if indeed these are made by Conrad then it’s only expected that the mystery will remain unsolved 😂

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I took out the 20 year old "black" Sport Tuned.

FYC53bS.jpg

Going the arrow direction, it gave me 10,500 RPM (at 3.7v).  (Compared to the 11,100 RPM of the 2019 Sport Tuned, it is only 5.5% slower)  

Going the other way, 9300 RPM.  So, this old black Sport Tuned goes 11.5% faster going the right way. 

It has just about the same amount of advanced timing as the 2019 version.   

zLp3bgR.jpg

This one didn't show oil, so I used mixed Labelle 106 and 108.  

S4N4rl8.jpg

RPM improved from 10500 to 10620 going the right way. 

Going the other way, it went up from 9300 to 9850.  

 

Again, I put in a tiny drop of commutator lube. The RPM went down; from 10620 to 10100.  

So...Lubricate the axle.  Lubricate the brushes might make them last longer, but it drops the rpm.  

 

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2 hours ago, mtbkym01 said:

Wow they are cheap, have you actually driven it to see if it is an issue?

Yeah not an issue 

JJ

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On 4/25/2020 at 5:56 AM, mtbkym01 said:

****, so my black Motors aren’t going to work, bummer, there goes that plan. (It’s more about the looks than anything else for me in this black truck)

HPI 15t Firebolts are zero timed and blackish?

Qyite quick too, around the same on 2s, as the silver cans on 3s (need to get the GPS on it ,to test now I've said that...)

2019-05-18_01-51-18

 

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On 4/25/2020 at 4:03 AM, Juggular said:

I don't know why there is a 2% discrepancy.  Maybe because brushes were "broken in" in the right way? 

After a bit of research, when I was going to do a ,540 silvercan speed run, I found this :- 

 

2020-04-26_08-14-25

 

Couple of tips on how to get better RPM out of a silver can, I didn't realise there where so many variations! Seemingly 5 different types of brushes alone!! 

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8 hours ago, Juggular said:

I took out the 20 year old "black" Sport Tuned.

FYC53bS.jpg

Going the arrow direction, it gave me 10,500 RPM (at 3.7v).  (Compared to the 11,100 RPM of the 2019 Sport Tuned, it is only 5.5% slower)  

Going the other way, 9300 RPM.  So, this old black Sport Tuned goes 11.5% faster going the right way. 

It has just about the same amount of advanced timing as the 2019 version.   

zLp3bgR.jpg

This one didn't show oil, so I used mixed Labelle 106 and 108.  

S4N4rl8.jpg

RPM improved from 10500 to 10620 going the right way. 

Going the other way, it went up from 9300 to 9850.  

 

Again, I put in a tiny drop of commutator lube. The RPM went down; from 10620 to 10100.  

So...Lubricate the axle.  Lubricate the brushes might make them last longer, but it drops the rpm.  

 

Because of the way that a sealed can motor mounts the brushes (pivoting in an arc rather than sliding in a straight line), as it breaks in, the "forward direction" gains RPM while the backwards direction loses it.

So this is normal behaviour of a broken-in motor.

The Sport Tuned doesn't have any advance in it -  or at least no more advance than any other sealed can motor. The brushes are in-line with the centre of the magnets on a new motor. You can see this just by looking at a new motor through the vents.

So you can run them in a reverse-rotation setup if you want.

(Source: I stripped down the motor in the blog post earlier)

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I’ve noticed no one has measured the wire diameter to determine the cross sectional area of the copper.  It’s all very well saying 23 turn, 25 turn, 27 turn, but unless you know the cross sectional area of the copper you can’t compare like for like and that’s before you start playing with the timing.  

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