TAMIYA Super Stock Motor Type-Rz in HOTSHOT

[Chuck Norris 9]

Hiya.

So I had problems with our Hotshot and replaced the stock motor with TAMIYA Super Stock Motor Type-Rz. It has been amazing. So fast and way better than we expected. However, from time to time it just stops. Sometimes after just a minute. The steering still operates, but no forward and back motion. We then switch the car on and off and it works again for a while and stops. The engine is not hot, so unsure what's going on. New to the sport, so sorry if this is a silly question, but what to do? 

[Finnsllc 917]

Battery charged up?

[Chuck Norris 9]

51 minutes ago, Finnsllc said:

Battery charged up?

Yes, fully charged. 

 

[Finnsllc 917]

esc able to handle the motor?

[Chuck Norris 9]

11 minutes ago, Finnsllc said:

esc able to handle the motor?

Hmm, not sure. will check that out though. thank you 

 

[Jonathon Gillham 4606]

I have the same thing in a Top Force with a HW1060. Usually after 10mins or so it stops. I asked inanother post and was advised to add capacitors to the ESC, or disable reverse. I haven't done either yet...

[Superluminal 3750]

Where would you need to wire the capcitors on the esc? Ive got the same setup on my Top Force as you but havent run it yet.

Edit - just seen your other thread

[Nicadraus 6201]

Definitely ESC.  Install an external capacitor. Putting a fan next to it should also help.

I replied to Jonathan in his thread but here it is too...

Should be easy to do that actually. Just solder the poles to the respective polarities. The side of the capacitor with the black line is the negative or sometimes, there's a marking of polarity. Longer pole is positive. But you will need to cut them shorter of course and use some shrink tubing to avoid shortening the circuit.

By the way, you will need to pen up the casing of the ESC which is very easy to do as well. Just use a precision screw driver to pry open the sides and the casing should come off easily.

[Fuijo 880]

None of the Tamiya ESC's apart from the TEU302BK are within spec for the Superstock motors.

You should also be running a 13 tooth pinion to get within the recommended FDR range for the Superstock BZ. Note that the BZ is intended for off-road use, so will take into account the usual size for offroad wheels, whereas

the RZ will list an FDR range based on smaller touring car size wheels.

[Superluminal 3750]

21 minutes ago, Nicadraus said:

Definitely ESC.  Install an external capacitor. Putting a fan next to it should also help.

I replied to Jonathan in his thread but here it is too...

Should be easy to do that actually. Just solder the poles to the respective polarities. The side of the capacitor with the black line is the negative or sometimes, there's a marking of polarity. Longer pole is positive. But you will need to cut them shorter of course and use some shrink tubing to avoid shortening the circuit.

By the way, you will need to pen up the casing of the ESC which is very easy to do as well. Just use a precision screw driver to pry open the sides and the casing should come off easily.

Im still at a complete loss of where this capacitor is supposed to go. Assume its not just soldered to the outside plastic case of the esc it  therefore must go on something made of metal that those magic sparks that come out of the battery travel through ( that is the limit of my understanding on how electricity works)

[Nicadraus 6201]

Here you go...

Open the casing of the ESC which is very easy to do by using a precision screw driver to pry the locks on the sides.

Solder the poles or the wires (if they come with a board) of the capacitor to the wires of the ESC going to the battery. Solder them to the board or at least nearest to the board and use a shrink wrap tubing to secure. 

It should look something like this (note: this is not the same board of the 1060. Pic is just for sample)

[Nicadraus 6201]

I have three 1060 ESCs. Two are used for my rally cars running 21t while the other in my CC-01 with 27t. I never had a problem of the ESC shutting down yet but I learned this with my Futaba MC230 when I was running it for on-road with my TA-04R and HPI Pro4. The ESC would shut down from time to time when it gets hot. 

Although on my brushless ESC (running 17.5t), I installed capacitors just to make sure I don't experience any shutting down. 

[Superluminal 3750]

Any idea what is the root cause of it that the capacitors cure? Ie is it a fault with the esc or something in the setup (motor and battery type being incompatible)

[Nicadraus 6201]

On 5/1/2020 at 6:07 PM, Superluminal said:

Any idea what is the root cause of it that the capacitors cure? Ie is it a fault with the esc or something in the setup (motor and battery type being incompatible)

The motor is trying to squeeze more power from the ESC in which can't supply anymore. The capacitor stores power and helps the ESC gives that extra amount of pwer the motor needs which prevents and the ESC from spikes and shutting down. It also prevents ripples and filters noise in the power passing through. 

Another solution preventing the ESC from shutting with low turn motors is by using a schottke diode. The schottke prevents electric current going back to the ESC. This effects makes it safe for the ESC from receiving generated voltage from the motor when free-wheeling and keeps it cool. But the schottke diode is only used for ESCs without reverse. Can't be used for the 1060 unless you want to disable the reverse function. 

Back when I was active in on-road racing our ESCs, Twister 2/2.1 Hara was supplied with a schottke diode and a capacitor by our local hobby shop. 

[Chuck Norris 9]

On 5/1/2020 at 6:31 PM, Fuijo said:

None of the Tamiya ESC's apart from the TEU302BK are within spec for the Superstock motors.

You should also be running a 13 tooth pinion to get within the recommended FDR range for the Superstock BZ. Note that the BZ is intended for off-road use, so will take into account the usual size for offroad wheels, whereas

the RZ will list an FDR range based on smaller touring car size wheels.

Thank you, very informative. really appreciate it. 

 

[Chuck Norris 9]

On 5/1/2020 at 6:24 PM, Nicadraus said:

Definitely ESC.  Install an external capacitor. Putting a fan next to it should also help.

I replied to Jonathan in his thread but here it is too...

Should be easy to do that actually. Just solder the poles to the respective polarities. The side of the capacitor with the black line is the negative or sometimes, there's a marking of polarity. Longer pole is positive. But you will need to cut them shorter of course and use some shrink tubing to avoid shortening the circuit.

By the way, you will need to pen up the casing of the ESC which is very easy to do as well. Just use a precision screw driver to pry open the sides and the casing should come off easily.

Thank you :-)

[dc-arena 81]

Saw this last night, and remembered a video that Glenn created on Tamiya Legends where he had a similar issue. He did a video showing where he did the soldering etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzbpCOp0Cc

 

[Jonathon Gillham 4606]

17 hours ago, dc-arena said:

Saw this last night, and remembered a video that Glenn created on Tamiya Legends where he had a similar issue. He did a video showing where he did the soldering etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzbpCOp0Cc

 

Thanks for posting that video.  It looks far easier to solder the extra caps on how he did it than opening the case up too.  Unfortunately, mine doesn't go into limp mode, rather the motor won't move but the steering works still.  It looks like I need one of those diodes then...

Annoying since I have a HW one, not a cheap knock off (unless I actually have a good knockoff that looks identical to a real one and comes in all the same packaging and costs the same...)

On 5/2/2020 at 3:18 AM, Nicadraus said:

The motor is trying to squeeze more power from the ESC in which can't supply anymore. The capacitor stores power and helps the ESC gives that extra amount of pwer the motor needs which and the ESC from spikes and shutting down. It also prevents ripples and filters noise in the power passing through. 

Another solution preventing the ESC from shutting with low turn motors is by using a schottke diode. The schottke prevents electric current going back to the ESC. This effects makes it safe for the ESC from receiving generated voltage from the motor when free-wheeling and keeps it cool. But the schottke diode is only used for ESCs without reverse. Can't be used for the 1060 unless you want to disable the reverse function. 

Back when I was active in on-road racing our ESCs, Twister 2/2.1 Hara was supplied with a schottke diode and a capacitor by our local hobby shop. 

I am only running a 23T motor and your description makes it sound like you need the schottke diode for low turn motors.  Are you able to point me in the right direction of a video or something showing how to install them?

Also, thats a SkyRC TS160 you run in your FF03 right?  They have internal caps.  Did you add some caps to that?  Or is that a TS120?

[Nicadraus 6201]

44 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

Thanks for posting that video.  It looks far easier to solder the extra caps on how he did it than opening the case up too.  Unfortunately, mine doesn't go into limp mode, rather the motor won't move but the steering works still.  It looks like I need one of those diodes then...

Annoying since I have a HW one, not a cheap knock off (unless I actually have a good knockoff that looks identical to a real one and comes in all the same packaging and costs the same...)

I am only running a 23T motor and your description makes it sound like you need the schottke diode for low turn motors.  Are you able to point me in the right direction of a video or something showing how to install them?

Also, thats a SkyRC TS160 you run in your FF03 right?  They have internal caps.  Did you add some caps to that?  Or is that a TS120?

I'll try to find some videos you requested. We ran 23t stock for on-road for our normal races annd but still used schottke in with highend ESCs at that time. Because aside from preventing generated voltage from coming back, it helps keep the ESC's temparature downn. The Twister Hara ESC (made by KO Propo VFS-1) doesn't have a heat sink at all. The schottke can be used with other brushed ESC's too regardless of what motor turns your using.

The ESC is the TS-160. It already has a built-in capacitor but I still added those just to make sure that no rippling, shutting down and noise will happen.

[Jonathon Gillham 4606]

6 minutes ago, Nicadraus said:

I'll try to find some videos you requested. We ran 23t stock for on-road for our normal races annd but still used schottke in with highend ESCs at that time. Because aside from preventing generated voltage from coming back, it helps keep the ESC's temparature downn. The Twister Hara ESC (made by KO Propo VFS-1) doesn't have a heat sink at all. The schottke can be used with other brushed ESC's too regardless of what motor turns your using.

The ESC is the TS-160. It already has a built-in capacitor but I still added those just to make sure that no rippling, shutting down and noise will happen.

Thanks heaps.  I appreciate it, I realise I could google but when you have no knowledge of something you inevitably end up down the wrong path.  We're in a full lockdown here so I can't go visit the usual people I would to sort this stuff out.

 

Interesting about the TS160.  I find them to be a great ESC and haven't had problems running 17.5T blinky mode (bought the TS160 as they have lower IR than a TS120, not sure if it makes a difference in the real world but you know).  One has failed, the on/off switch didn't last a full race day.  I have to send it back to RCMart, so bought another locally to get the car going in the meantime.  I needed another ESC for my race cars anyway so it should work out ok.

[Nicadraus 6201]

I actuaally have two TS160s. Both were given to me by my friend who owns one of the local hobby shops here. He used both for a short period only and said he would give them to me in case I go back to the hobby. That was two years ago. So When I went back, he really gave them to me and included that Ares Pro 17.5t. I'm considering in getting a blue TS120 just because of the color to match my blue bling. Haha! But I've also thought that since I'm only running 17.5t, the TS120 should be good enough.

[Nicadraus 6201]

18 hours ago, dc-arena said:

Saw this last night, and remembered a video that Glenn created on Tamiya Legends where he had a similar issue. He did a video showing where he did the soldering etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzbpCOp0Cc

 

It's always better to solder onto the board directly rather than splicing up the wires like he did. That method is for the lazy and it doesn't look neat at all. Like I said, the casing of the 1060 is so easy to open (and remove) and very easy to solder onto the board.

[dc-arena 81]

I was thinking about getting this motor/esc setup for a couple of projects (Top Force and the 911 GT1 Street) but I am a little concerned there will be issues. I may or may not run Lipo though (not gone down that path yet at all), so I may not run into issues.

 

One thing confusing me though is that the motor sounds well within the capabilities and spec of the ESC, so it's odd it's causing an issue. Are there any alternative ESCs that would not have this issue? 

[dc-arena 81]

5 hours ago, Nicadraus said:

It's always better to solder onto the board directly rather than splicing up the wires like he did. That method is for the lazy and it doesn't look neat at all. Like I said, the casing of the 1060 is so easy to open (and remove) and very easy to solder onto the board.

 

Do you have to cut the side of the casing a bit, to allow the extra cables?

Also, was the add-on capacitor kit that he used in the videos the one to go for, or would any work?

[mtbkym01 4008]

The TZ, RZ and BZ Motors do perform fairly well better than a lot of other motors with similar specs, so maybe they ask for a massive amount of “current” if that’s the right word, that the esc can sometimes deliver hence these brown outs?