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RedDemis

Top Force brushless setup

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Hi there, 

Ive been running my Re re Top Force with a Tamiya super stock TZ motor. However, I've managed to burn through several sets of brushes and now the comms seems worn out.  

I was pretty happy with the speed from the TZ but would like less maintenance.Therefore, I'm considering a brushless setup. 

I'd like a little more speed for the new setup, but don't want to be chewing out gears ever few batteries. 

The TZ is rated at 26,500 rpm with no load which is about 3680Kv 

Im considering the Hobbywing XR10 Justock ESC G2.1 COMBO (ESC + motor) but Im unsure which motor to get? 10.5t 13.5t or 17.5t?

Seems like 13.5t could be a good fit, but I really don't know how it would compare to the TZ.

https://www.hobbywingdirect.com/collections/combo-special/products/xr10-justock-esc-g2-1-combo?variant=14796877398131

 

What would you recommend?

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I used to run a TZ in my DF-02, recently swapping it for a 13.5t brushless. Performance is slightly improved, runtimes are significantly improved, and the motor and ESC both run cool, so I could probably trade the extra runtime for more performance by gearing it more agressively. So if you are wanting something a bit quicker and a lot more reliable than the TZ, 13.5t would likely fit the bill nicely.

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I run a hobbywing 10.5 justock 3650 in my egress with 22t pinion  and it is just right. Much faster than the 13.5 i had in it but not crazy either like my 4600 castles i run in other cars. 

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just got my brushless setup in  my tf the other day. Its trackstar 3250kv 80amp esc combo, sensorless. was 71 dollars. its really fast and needs a wide open space to run. I havent taken it over to my summer run spot yet. only to the baseball field up the street. its almost to fast there. also on 2s lipo, my first one. depending on your use would determine the kv. if u post your intent how to run i may be able to offer more thoughts

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Right, so a 13.5t sounds like it would be a good replacement. The 10.5 might be too much as it's 4000KV.

Interestingly, the Hobbywing website says the power out put for the 10.5t is less than the 13.5t. This doesn't seem to match other hobby wing motors such as the v10 series. so I wonder if it's a miss print?

10.5t  175w  4000KV

13.5t  215w  3200KV

17.5t  157w  2450KV

https://www.hobbywingdirect.com/products/justock-3650sd-g2-1-brushless-motor?variant=14794102898803

 

I just run it for fun, in fairly wide open spaces mostly on grass. I usually make a track with cones and use the natural contours of the ground as small jumps.  

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Hmm, well perhaps the 17.5t then and get the speed gear set if I want more top end speed. Hopefully the speed gear set is back in stock soon. 

 

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just bashing, mostly wide open spaces on either grass or dirt. 

 

would running a 13.5t and adjusting max throttle on the receiver to control the power be a good option? 

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13.5T is probably the best bet.  17.5T could be ok but you're on the limit of gearing for it. The lowest FDR you can get in the Top Force is barely low enough for a 17.5T motor. 13.5T will work well, and should be a good match for the chassis, and comparable to the Super Stock TZ.

I wouldn't get those HW Justock combos for bashing. They are really designed for spec class racing as they have fixed timing on the motor endbell. Since you're bashing and don't have to meet class rules get a 120a ESC which are also programmable, and a 13.5T motor with adjustable endbell timing. Look at the HW 10BL120 ESC,  or a SkyRC TS120, they are similar spec. If you like HW the Bandit motor would be a good option, it isn't ROAR approved but you don't need that, its cheaper performance. 

A programmable ESC is so much fun, you can dial in boost and turbo to make the car mental and then wind it back to make it sensible.

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17.5 is going to be pretty mild in a 4WD buggy; I'd go for a 13.5 or 10.5. The Justock combos are super nice and have a great throttle feel, but like Jonathon said, they have fixed mechanical and electronic timing. The SkyRC TS120 is a great deal, and offers a lot of adjustability and performance for a reasonable price. I use one in my XV01. The Hobbywing Quicrun 120 ESC is decent enough, although it's really big compared to racing-type ESCs, and lacks the level of adjustability the SkyRC has.

Steer clear of four-pole motors for this application. They have an immense amount of torque, especially when compared to brushed motors, and will cause fast wear and increased breakage.

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i guess my top force is in the middle of 10.5- 13.5. at 3250. id say honestly on wide open dirt 3250 on 4wd top force is maybe just a tad over what is controllable. i mean its right on the edge. so def at the high end of motor power. any more would only be good to show off and thats on road cars @RedDemis

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I race a Castle Sidewinder 3 combo in mine with a Castle 4600 kv motor on 2s lipo. I have dialed it down to 80%. It runs good on the track, as has some good speed on straight lines.

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4 hours ago, Finnsllc said:

i guess my top force is in the middle of 10.5- 13.5. at 3250. id say honestly on wide open dirt 3250 on 4wd top force is maybe just a tad over what is controllable. i mean its right on the edge. so def at the high end of motor power. any more would only be good to show off and thats on road cars @RedDemis

3250 is about what a decent 17.5T motor would give. 13.5T should be closer to 3800kv - 4000kv when the timing is set properly. 10.5T usually say about 4000kv but should give more once the timing is set, more like 4500 - 5000kv range.

A Top Force should handle more, around 8.5T would be a good fit for the chassis, its really capable. It jumps nicely and has pretty neutral handling. Lack of a slipper or centre diff is the only real drawback. It all depends where its being run though as my HB D418 with 17.5T properly geared and timing set is really too fast for my backyard, but can feel slow on my clubs 8th scale track.

A generation or 2 old 13.5T (Speed Passion, Trackstar, those blue motors etc) will be the closest to a Super Stock TZ, or the 10.5T in those Justock combos since they have their limitations

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Fitted a novak (old school huh!) 13.5 in my tope force, 21t steel pinion and i find it to be just right. I have dropped the FDR to 8 with the high speed gear set.

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7 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

3250 is about what a decent 17.5T motor would give. 13.5T should be closer to 3800kv - 4000kv when the timing is set properly. 10.5T usually say about 4000kv but should give more once the timing is set, more like 4500 - 5000kv range.

A Top Force should handle more, around 8.5T would be a good fit for the chassis, its really capable. It jumps nicely and has pretty neutral handling. Lack of a slipper or centre diff is the only real drawback. It all depends where its being run though as my HB D418 with 17.5T properly geared and timing set is really too fast for my backyard, but can feel slow on my clubs 8th scale track.

A generation or 2 old 13.5T (Speed Passion, Trackstar, those blue motors etc) will be the closest to a Super Stock TZ, or the 10.5T in those Justock combos since they have their limitations

So you think about 5000 in the TF?

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2 hours ago, Finnsllc said:

So you think about 5000 in the TF?

Its definitely capable of it, it depends where its being run. Mine has the hi cap dampers which may make a difference, I've never run it on the stock CVAs. But its certainly in control with the Super Stock TZ compared to other chassis like a Boomerang for instance. The chassis handles well, its on par with modern kits, I think the only issue it'll have is durability when it crashes, but if you don't crash it will cope with that much power.

I don't tend to work in kv though, thats generally unsensored motors. Sensored motors often give a kv rating to give an idea but there is a lot more to it with sensored motors. And more kv generally means less torque, so lower gearing. Its the overall package that counts

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I ran an old '8.5t' hobbywing brushless motor in my original top force for years with no issues at all, not sure of the KV rating but it will have been around 4000 I think.

I've since retired that and now run an evo spec re-release top force with the Tamiya TBLM-02S 10.5t, my brother runs the same motor in his stock Top Force as well, we both run the speed tuned gear set (66t spur with 25t steel pinion) and use 2s lipos although he has run a 3s in his before and we haven't had any drive train problems except I shredded the splines off a couple of the steel diff plates - I put this down to poor quality re-re parts because I since put new old stock diff plates on and it's been fine ever since.

We just run the cars on short grass and gravel and mostly run at full throttle, we aren't constantly on and off throttle or doing massive jumps but I wouldn't want to jump a top force anyway because of the weak rear shock tower.

I also have a DF01 chassis speed runner which has geared diffs and the speed tuned gear set and I have a 3.5t Team Wave brushless motor in that which has some crazy high KV rating, the only issue I have at the moment is that it keeps sending the tyres into orbit.

 

 

 

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Thanks for all the replies and advice, much appreciated. 

I managed to borrow a hobbywing QUICRUN 10BL120 ESC and a Hobbywing V10 G2 13.5T (3000KV) motor to try out. 

I ran the 21t pinion (biggest with standard spur gear)  and found the car has a lot more punch compare to the Super Stock TZ. Top speed was also a bit better probably due to the extra torque.

I think the speed gear set would be a nice match for this motor and ESC to give a little more top speed. 

 

So I think I'll probably get either the  HW 10BL120, or the SKYRC TS120 ESC 

Not sure which motor though as the new HW V10 G3 13.5T is rated at 3600KV, while the 17.5t version is only 2750kv and can't find the V10 G2  in stock for a reasonable price.
 

 

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7 hours ago, RedDemis said:

Thanks for all the replies and advice, much appreciated. 

I managed to borrow a hobbywing QUICRUN 10BL120 ESC and a Hobbywing V10 G2 13.5T (3000KV) motor to try out. 

I ran the 21t pinion (biggest with standard spur gear)  and found the car has a lot more punch compare to the Super Stock TZ. Top speed was also a bit better probably due to the extra torque.

I think the speed gear set would be a nice match for this motor and ESC to give a little more top speed. 

 

So I think I'll probably get either the  HW 10BL120, or the SKYRC TS120 ESC 

Not sure which motor though as the new HW V10 G3 13.5T is rated at 3600KV, while the 17.5t version is only 2750kv and can't find the V10 G2  in stock for a reasonable price.
 

 

Good choice.

I would go with the 13.5T as the gearing options for the Top Force aren't quite low enough for the 17.5T (thinking about it more I realised the Top Force has smaller wheels than modern race buggies, so even with the same FDR its still a smaller rollout when you take wheel size into account). The 13.5T will sit in the middle so you will be able to optimise it for the ESC in blinky and if you decide to dial in turbo and boost in the ESC you will be able to adjust gearing accordingly.

The kv numbers for modern sensored motors don't mean that much as the endbell timing and torque make a massive difference.

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