Next Build...Retro vs. Modern

[Krustybus 214]

So having been bitten once again by the RC bug and throwing together a Grasshopper I've got a hankering to build something else.

I want to do a 4WD buggy. It will be a runner, no aspirations on racing just something that's fun to drive (the GH is fun but it's basically an unpredictable thing with the road manners of a space hopper).

Anyway, I've recently been fancying a Hot Shot as I've seen some absolutely stunning modified ones running Dark Impact style wheels. They just looks soooo good (to me anyway) so I'm inspired by doing something along those lines. Thing is, is the Hot Shot really any good or at least is it a good general runner? I like modifying and tinkering as I love seeing individual creations people come up with. 

Or would I be better off getting something modern like a Neo Scorcher or something?

Ultimately, I'd be buying an Optima Mid if Kyosho ever do a rerelease  

[moffman 5752]

Hotshot is a very handsome buggy and good in its original days only made better by people modifying them I personally would go retro (just my opinion) but i would go for the terra scorcher it's the same price but it's a lot more capable buggy and easier to use/work on 

[Jonathon Gillham 4606]

I don't have a Hotshot but have a Boomerang and a Top Force and a Plasma Edge II (TT022B) and some race buggies so am probably qualified to answer...

The Boomerang, despite being the pinnacle of RC,  is a lot like a large boat and understeers a lot. I assume the Hotshot is the same or worse. However, the rideheight is great for grass and it is a decent runner and will beat a TT02Bin long grass as it doesn't get stuck. Also, jumps well. It is amazing, especially in boxart.

The TT02B works well and sadly will beat a Boomerang on a flat surface since its a touring car with longer arms and marginally more ride height. It doesn't jump well because of the longitudinal battery, bit is pretty bullet proof.

The Top Force is the perfect compromise, which is wrong because there is no compromise if you get a Top Force. The performance isn't far off a modern race buggy and is far better than a TT02B and it looks amazing. 

So get a Boomerang and a Top Force, and if you have kids a Plasma Edge II for them

[Krustybus 214]

Thanks for those insights. I used to really want a Boomerang when I was a kid if I'm honest, I think they're a good looking car. In fact I used to hate the Hotshot but I guess taste changes as you get older lol. 

Never considered the Top Force before, so thanks for that shout. As for the Terra Scorcher, I'm not a fan of the body style but I guess with a bit of creativity that can be changed! I see a lot of people talk about the Thundershot type chassis with some enthusiasm!

Usage is mainly on grass, our local park is a football (soccer) field and has a cool 'road gap' type jump across the path which looks fun  Otherwise it's the gravel lane behind my house or any other loose gravel surface in our local woods! 

I'll put the little 380 motor back in the Grasshopper and let the kids loose on that instead! 

Looks like I'll have plenty of time to make up my mind anyway since stocks are pretty low around the place!

[A-Baum 352]

So what I'm gathering from this thread is the Top Force is a better buy than a hotshot/super hotshot/bigwig/boomerang?  Plus it seems to be a bit cheaper if you can get your hands on it.  That sound about accurate?  As nostalgic as the hotshot/boomerang is for me (I was out of the hobby by the time the top force came out) I think the top force is more modern and a better runner.  Sound accurate?

[Finnsllc 917]

we just did a super shot, gt motor. its a fun build but i gotts say when we run the SS with the sand viper on a BZ or the DT03 on sport tuned the SS cant keep up as far as speed or handling. It seems just a bit chunky if u will. i may need to install a brushless system in the SS to get it up just a bit or throw the BZ motor in. It comes down to side by side comparison when out having fun, my son loves the SS but always ends up bashing my modern buggies due to speed

[Saito2 6686]

4 hours ago, Krustybus said:

Thing is, is the Hot Shot really any good or at least is it a good general runner?

Yes and no depending on what you expect. For me, yes because I like all the old stuff loaded with "character"

The Hot Shot is the first and therefore most "immature" of Tamiya's 4wd buggies. With all the Hot Shot Series buggies (Hot Shot, Super Shot, Boomerang, Bigwig, Hot Shot 2, and Super Sabre) it comes down to different chassis designs, different attempts at steering designs and different suspension designs. The basic drivetrain and suspension geometry is very similar. The Hot Shot uses a unique monoshock design front and rear. The rear works surprisingly well at each wheel moves individually but is travel limited and self-defeating if both wheels are compressed at the same time. The front's shock geometry is all wrong which more or less leads to a soft front response. The direct steering is foolproof but has a good deal of bumpsteer and causes the buggy to understeer. All that said, I love it.  Its still far more controlled than a grasshopper/Hornet or even a stock Frog to me. They aren't overly weak or fragile either and the drivetrain is robust. If you like to tinker, adding 4 shocks to the Hot Shot makes a good improvement and brings it close to Super Hot Shot spec. You still have the understeer but the handling is greatly improved. To me, this makes the perfect, old school 4wd runner.

The Boomerang performs better than the Hot Shot out of the box. The rear suspension works well and the geometry of the front monoshock is corrected so it works properly. The steering mechanism reduces the bumpsteer found in the Hot Shot/Super Hot Shot and its performance is one of the best of the series. There are other design aspects about the Boomer I don't care for, but these are personal hang ups/opinions. Overall, Tamiya sold a ton of them and they are well-liked by their owners.

The Thundershot series, of which the Terra Scorcher is the ultimate iteration of, is the next design evolution of the 4wd buggy range. They don't have the classic looks of the old 4wds as spaceship buggies were coming into vogue at the time. They are a simplified, streamlined evolution of the Shot series (sharing no actual parts) with lower parts count, lighter weight and simpler construction. They still perform well on rough tracks and certainly turn far better than the Hot Shot series. Aside from the front A5 part, they are fairly durable too. I think of them as the sweet spot between old and new. All the archaic aspects of the earlier series are gone but its still somewhat old school. 

The Avante series is a bit of an off-shoot. None of these,more complex buggies were aimed at the basic backyard basher.

The DF01 (Top Force/Manta Ray) is the next evolution. It kinda blended the purposes of the Thundershot and Avante series. It could be a basic basher in the Manta Ray or a competitor in the Top Force guise. They preferred smoother tracks in competition over the Thundershot series but are still more capable off road than the low riding, touring car-based DF02 and TT02B.  While not particular weak, I will say, if run hard over the years, I have personally found the Thundershot series to be more durable than the DF01s.

53 minutes ago, A-Baum said:

So what I'm gathering from this thread is the Top Force is a better buy than a hotshot/super hotshot/bigwig/boomerang?  Plus it seems to be a bit cheaper if you can get your hands on it.  That sound about accurate?  As nostalgic as the hotshot/boomerang is for me (I was out of the hobby by the time the top force came out) I think the top force is more modern and a better runner.  Sound accurate?

Depends on what you're after. From a performance standpoint? Yes, no doubt. The Top Force is far and away a more modern runner. Its several generations newer than the Hot Shot series. Since I like "character", older, more realistic looks and driving a weighty, rugged feeling buggy over all sorts of terrain, the Hot Shot series is my pick. On overall performance, the Top Force probably beats it at every turn. Years ago, my girlfriend at the time had a DF01 and I had a Hot Shot that we raced around a ball diamond. Now, I'm the better driver by a good measure, but she was no fool behind the controls. I had to concentrate quite hard to slightly keep just ahead of her. If I made the slightest miscalculation, she quickly took the lead. If she drove cleanly once in the lead, overtaking her was very tough.    

[A-Baum 352]

I'm just trying to pick my next build.  I have a rere blackfoot, a dt-03, a tt-02b, and a tt-02 rally car as well as a novafox.  I like to build different stuff and try not to repeat (which will suck when stuff breaks but whatever).  

I am torn between the Top Force, a super hotshot, bigwig, and a Zahhak which I know nothing about.  Now price consideration comes into play. Some kits are more available than others and the super hotshot is by far the most expensive.  Top Force is around $200 USD if i can find one.  The Zhanik and Bigwig come in around $145 USD.

I also found a Manta Ray for $92 USD that I am strongly considering converting to a Top Force just because i think that would be fun, but the difference in parts seems far more you typically see in cars that share the same chassis.  Ball diffs vs gear diffs, different decks, etc.  Quite different.  Not even sure how you can claim they are both DF-01.

[TurnipJF 9192]

7 minutes ago, A-Baum said:

I also found a Manta Ray for $92 USD that I am strongly considering converting to a Top Force just because i think that would be fun, but the difference in parts seems far more you typically see in cars that share the same chassis.  Ball diffs vs gear diffs, different decks, etc.  Quite different.  Not even sure how you can claim they are both DF-01.

That sounds like an excellent deal. There are a lot of differences between the Top Force and Manta Ray on paper, but few actually translate to differences in performance. Some may look nicer,  such as the fiberglass chassis plates, or make adjustment easier, such as the ball diffs, but they don't seem to make it any faster.

I have a Manta Ray with a few basic hop-ups (propshaft, motor mount, shocks, turnbuckles) and it keeps pace with a Top Force on similar power without difficulty.

[A-Baum 352]

9 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

That sounds like an excellent deal. There are a lot of differences between the Top Force and Manta Ray on paper, but few actually translate to differences in performance. Some may look nicer,  such as the fiberglass chassis plates, or make adjustment easier, such as the ball diffs, but they don't seem to make it any faster.

I have a Manta Ray with a few basic hop-ups (propshaft, motor mount, shocks, turnbuckles) and it keeps pace with a Top Force on similar power without difficulty.

Interesting...I also really dislike the manta ray body. Can you mount a top force body on the manta ray with little mod effort?

Also, it sounds like you're saying the $110 difference between Top Force and Manta Ray aren't necessarily worth it....

[TurnipJF 9192]

31 minutes ago, A-Baum said:

Interesting...I also really dislike the manta ray body. Can you mount a top force body on the manta ray with little mod effort?

Also, it sounds like you're saying the $110 difference between Top Force and Manta Ray aren't necessarily worth it....

I've never tried it that way round, but I know a Manta Ray body fits a Top Force chassis with only minor differences in trimming around the front shock tower, so I can't see why the reverse wouldn't also be true.

With the Top Force, you are paying for more than just the difference in parts cost. You are also paying for historical appeal. Back in the day, the Manta Ray was marketed as a hobby grade buggy, the Top Force as a high level competition machine. While there might be little difference in real world performance, the Top Force has a lot more street cred in the eyes of someone who was familiar with the originals, thus commands a higher price as a re-re.

[A-Baum 352]

7 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

I've never tried it that way round, but I know a Manta Ray body fits a Top Force chassis with only minor differences in trimming around the front shock tower, so I can't see why the reverse wouldn't also be true.

With the Top Force, you are paying for more than just the difference in parts cost. You are also paying for historical appeal. Back in the day, the Manta Ray was marketed as a hobby grade buggy, the Top Force as a high level competition machine. While there might be little difference in real world performance, the Top Force has a lot more street cred in the eyes of someone who was familiar with the originals, thus commands a higher price as a re-re.

Good point.  I totally forgot that Tamiya pricing is arbitrary and not in any way related to manufacturing costs or anything tied to real overhead.

[A-Baum 352]

Ok bought a Manta Ray because why the heck not. $127 shipped 2 day international fedex.  Top Force would have been $230 shipped.  Think I’m good.

[Jonathon Gillham 4606]

3 hours ago, A-Baum said:

Ok bought a Manta Ray because why the heck not. $127 shipped 2 day international fedex.  Top Force would have been $230 shipped.  Think I’m good.

Thats a great buy.

I think the Manta Ray is the better buy, but wanted the Top Force because BITD that was unobtainable, whereas the Manta Ray was affordable and a few friends had them. Its also ugly. The main difference to me is the adjustable arms and tierods on the Top Force, allowing you to adjust camber and toe. For about $20 you could get the ball ends and turnbuckles to convert the Manta Ray and then you're ahead as the Top Force doesn't come with turnbuckles anyway.

 

[Krustybus 214]

Wow, some detailed responses here! Thanks for the input.

I'm a sucker for character so I'm still hankering after a Hotshot and build the vision in my head. I don't think I'll ever be discerning enough to appreciate the intricate differences between chassis types. I really don't have the love for these spaceship looking bodies with all those aircraft style canopies and sweeping lines.

[Mrowka 495]

@Saito2: I am still trying to get my head around the idea of a girlfriend that likes driving buggies. A wife? *mind totally blown*

Back on topic, sort of. I suspect we all are suckers for "character" buggies, otherwise, we wouldn't be here.

[A-Baum 352]

22 hours ago, A-Baum said:

Ok bought a Manta Ray because why the heck not. $127 shipped 2 day international fedex.  Top Force would have been $230 shipped.  Think I’m good.

Alright I lied, sort of. Right after I pulled the trigger on the manta ray I got my kids’ spring sports league money refunded so I canceled the manta ray and got the Top Force for $205 shipped from active power sports in the US.  Should be here next week.  A Top Force body would have been at least $50-$60 shipped so I figured why bother and go for the real deal.  I have most of the bearings laying around so I should be good to go.

[Saito2 6686]

4 hours ago, Mrowka said:

@Saito2: I am still trying to get my head around the idea of a girlfriend that likes driving buggies. A wife? *mind totally blown*

Yes, its true. Me and my girlfriend at the time would often go out and run the buggies back in the mid 2000's. Not only that, but my wife today runs buggies with me. We used to go out frequently before the birth of my daughter, always running her trusty DT02. Even nowadays, I can hand the transmitter over to her and she'll have a go at it. She does well, even with stupid fast stuff like my Stampede and former Emaxx.

[Wooders28 4723]

On 5/15/2020 at 9:50 AM, Krustybus said:

Ultimately, I'd be buying an Optima Mid if Kyosho ever do a rerelease  

Restomod a Mid! 

That's what I've done, modern slipper, modern elecs,  it's awesome and goes like the clappers!! 😁

[Krustybus 214]

Wow, some detailed responses here! Thanks for the input.

I'm a sucker for character so I'm still hankering after a Hotshot and build the vision in my head. I don't think I'll ever be discerning enough to appreciate the intricate differences between chassis types. I really don't have the love for these spaceship looking bodies with all those aircraft style canopies and sweeping lines.

[Krustybus 214]

21 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

Restomod a Mid! 

That's what I've done, modern slipper, modern elecs,  it's awesome and goes like the clappers!! 😁

I've been keeping half a look out lol

[Wooders28 4723]

2 hours ago, Krustybus said:

I've been keeping half a look out lol

My interpretation 🙄

(Ignore the thread pic, not a clue why it's chosen that, it's not mine! 😳)