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DeadMeat666

Offroad Buggies not really "Offroad capable."

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Hello all,

I'm quite new to this forum, but it didn't take much browsing to register as a member, since I've recently gotten back into the hobby and the best part of this hobby is arguably the social aspect.

Now down to the topic:

After having bought a TT02B and a DF03 recently, I've come to a realisation. The low clearance of most buggies these days actually makes them quite poor for actual offroad use. Living in an area that is mostly pebble-strewn desert, I have plenty of space to run my rc's, but their low clearance height means that I'm always scratching up the underbody, and I'm at constant risk of ripping off a suspension arm or breaking a shock eyelet (bottom one obviously) as I bash through the desert. Jumps of any sort are a catastrophe, as the buggies tend to bottom out with even the smallest of hops; I cringe every time I land the buggy in hopes that it will keep going afterwards! I've had to monsterise my TT02B just to have it traverse such terrain. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that standard buggies are really no better than wide touring cars on rough gravel, and don't seem to belong there at all, unless one doesn't mind completely destroying their car after a few runs.

Discuss...

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I you run it on a surface with a lot of pebbles  then you have to buy a monstertruck or a bigger car with more ground clearance, you can run offroad with buggy I run my buggies on the beach with no problem so that is still ofroad and  you can run them on hard dirt or grass.

But have you tried to put some bigger wheels on them and a little longer shock to inprove the ride height.

sometimes I run on rough terrain thats only suited for my losi rock rey and my big 1/8 monster truck with 180mm tires, there I can not run the buggies, so maybe your better of selling them and buy a other car.

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I think the issue these days is that 'buggy's' are increasingly designed specifically for racing [performance] on BMX style RC tracks, and while they are 'off-road' in that they are not a paved surface, the terrain is relatively smooth and uniform under your tyres - and  it is the jumps and turns which are the primary hazards, and so buggies have evolved to fly well and not crash/roll the whole time?

As Dannymulder suggests, for more general play and trail running, fitting bigger wheels/taller tyres (and potentially revised gearing if you go really big) is the way to improve ground clearance and all-terrain ability for non uniform trail running. for info. my nephew has a Dual Ridge (TT02B chassis) and we fitted some 2.2 size wheels and tyres from Ebay to that and it was much more fun on the woodland trails where he likes to drive it.

Jenny x

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You have summed up the TT02B, it is a touring car with wider arms. It is also following the patterns from modern race kits which are lower due to the tracks they run on, clay and astroturf. The dirt models will usually have more rideheight.

Rerelease models are different, they are much higher. I womder if i will be able to get my Top Force low enough to enter the local indoor cubs vintage class. Get a Boomerang, Terra Scorcher or Top Force and see if that works for you

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As mentioned already you might need a truggy, or a truck with bigger tires.  

Something like Blackfoot.  Off the top of my head, TT02B would have about 4cm of ground clearance?  Blackfoot would have about 7cm.  

Tires for TT02B and DF03 are about 86mm in diameter.  Blackfoot, Monster Beetle, Bruiser have 120mm diameter tires.  From the tires alone, you'd get the extra ground clearance of 1/2 inch.  Or at least Konghead tires (108mm) would be better than buggy tires. 

Putting larger tires on buggies would turn a buggy into a "truggy."  But the gear ratio has to be substantially lowered to make up for larger and heavier tires.  TT02B will only go from 17t pinion to 16t (FDR 9.82). That would not be enough. The motor will overheat and so would ESC. (DF02 is almost identical, but has the lowest FDR of 11.4, so DF02 would have allowed a bit larger tires). 

However, DF03 comes with a 26t pinion and an adjustable motor mount.  You could put a smaller pinion like 18t, 17t, etc.  That should give you much lower gear ratio and the motor and ESC won't die from overheating.  So, at least DF03 can turn into a truggy.  Whether or not such look suits your taste is another matter. (I don't them attractive, but that's just my preference)  

And there is the Tamiya Club motto:  When in doubt, buy more kits. It will solve all of your live's problems. (no, not really, but it feels like it would)

 

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13 minutes ago, Juggular said:

 

Putting larger tires on buggies would turn a buggy into a "truggy."  

 

As I mentioned up top, I've already done that so that I can enjoy my TT02B. 

The thread was more about how relevant buggies still are considering that they come so low from the factory, low enough to be unsuitable for many of the most common types of natural offroad terrain, except for clean sandy beaches. (apologies for the dusty drivetrain, this is definitely not a shelf queen!)

Thanks for your input though!

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The racing scene has changed a lot in 40 years.  When off road was off road, tracks were often makeshift, marked out with pylons and hoses on a field somewhere.  Tracks were cut grass and the mud underneath as the day wore on.

As clubs emerged and became established, tracks were made more permanent, if still made from the same grass and mud.  A track would be naturally carved in a field after a few weeks of running the same layout.

Cars back then benefited  from having some ground clearance as the terrain was often bumpy and rutted, dry, dusty, wet and muddy.  That's before any man made features such as ramps and obstacles were added.

Permanent tracks required a lot maintenance and it could be expensive to keep filling in holes and smoothing out areas of the track that were constantly churned up by long spiked tires.

As a result, more permanent materials started to appear, such as the astro turf, which also covered up the ruts and ditches and smoothed out the track, whilst proving hard wearing with less maintenance needed.

In warmer parts of the world tracks made from mud were very dusty and loose and required a lot of rolling and packing to be maintained.

A lot of these off road tracks were also outdoors, exposed to the elements and could easily become waterlogged if it rained, as the packed clay and mud didn't soak up water too well.

Packed clay tracks eventually moved indoors for protection and ease of maintenance.  Clay and astro turf tracks, with their smoother surfaces don't require a buggy to have a lot of ground clearance, so buggies became lower.  To maintain an element of off road, artificial tracks incorporated more and bigger jumps.  Of course, a buggy with low ground clearance was at a risk of bottoming out and flipping over when landing from big air, so a big bore damper was developed to keep the chassis off the ground.

Now there are many indoor tracks, protected from the elements, made from clean packed clay, astro turf and carpet, flat and consistent, with jumps designed to make a car take off and glide, and components on that car to  help it land as gingerly as a cat.

Maybe, in twenty years, even the ramps will disappear, and buggies will be little more than a formula 1 car with 2.4" wheels and slick tires.

 

 

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I don't think the ride height has changed over the last 40yrs, measure the ride height of a grasshopper/hornet, and I bet it's not that different to a DF03 (depending on suspension settings on the df03 I guess) 

You want the car as low as practically possible, to keep the ,centre of gravity, low ,to stop roll overs,  this is why the likes of the lunchbox ,seem to fall over a lot.

So ,what to do. The only real solution is what you've done, fit larger wheels, But then you're best to lower the gearing, which with the 05mod gearing in the df03, is easier said than done, good luck finding pinion options for that!

If you're running a slipper, you should be able to get a different spur to fit, (but not actually tried it) ie a Schumacher, which will give you options.

If you want to keep standard wheels, the other option, is to move the eyelet to the inner most hole, go with the ,single hole piston in the shock, use heavier shock oil, and maybe fit a ,bump stop, at the bottom of the shock, so the car can't bottom out (the rubber gromets you get with a servo work well).

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With the wide variety of RC platforms out there, from pan cars to crawlers, I'm not really sure that this is a problem as such, since there are a range of models available to suit all sorts of terrain. Buggies have never really stood out (in my mind at least) as hardcore offroad machines for use on really rough terrain, but rather as sleek and fast vehicles that don't mind seeing a bit of dust and dirt occasionally, and can handle jumps and undulations. For crossing pebble-strewn desert, I'd simply choose something else.

I like that there is a continuum of sorts, with no huge gaps between vehicle classes, but rather a bit of overlap between them so that once you have a reasonable fleet of cars, you are never stuck for something to run irrespective of the terrain. For example, in my fleet the continuum starts with my F1s, which are optimised for smooth high-grip carpeted indoor tracks, but can also run on well-prepared tarmac. They overlap with my touring and M-chassis cars, which can also run on carpet but are very much at home on tarmac, even if it is not quite smooth enough for the F1s. They in turn overlap with my rally cars, which can do rough tarmac and reasonably smooth gravel without difficulty, and can also function very nicely on firm sand and snow, including undulations and small jumps. Then come the 2WD buggies which move the focus to smooth(ish) surfaces with larger jumps and undulations, including short-mown grass such as found in our local parks. 4WD buggies handle such terrain even better, and can also run on moderately softer sand and snow than their 2WD counterparts. Then come the 2WD truggies such as my Aqroshot and Mad Bull, which can handle soft sand and snow with ease, as well as parks and lawns that have not been freshly mown. They also don't shy away from pebbled beaches and the like. Then come the dedicated offroad rigs such as the WT-01, WR-01 and G6-01 with 2WD, 4WD and 6WD respectively,  that can handle pretty much anything that I throw them at short of large rocks and deep water. For such conditions, I call upon my scalers which are optimised for slowly picking their way over very tricky terrain and are also fully submersible with waterproof electrics.

RC cars have been around for a fairly long time now, and the different disciplines have become quite specialised. While this doesn't really benefit the hobbyist who wants "one rig to do them all", it does mean that if you are open to building up a small fleet, you are bound to find something that is really good at doing exactly what you want it to do on any given day, whatever that might be.

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I think the problem is that there is an expectation for a 4WD buggy to manage to traverse some grass! 

The DF02 / TT02B struggle in this respect. The DT02 / DT03 manage better in my experience, but these get stuck as a result of being 2WD, too!

Going back, the evolution from Touring Car to Buggy isn't a new one - the Top Force being a TA02 at heart. 

The one stand-out 4WD buggy for getting through grass is the TL01B, for me at least. A combination of skinny monocoque rather than tub chassis, decent clearance and a proper front bumper all make for a good back-garden machine. It's far from perfect though, the lower suspension arm mounts are a weak-spot, as are the damper 'towers', both of which are integrated to the chassis moulding, so a breakage means completely replacing the chassis! Another problem with the integrated damper mounts is that you can't fit much in the way of longer dampers.

I think a lot of this is height of expectation vs. reality. If you want something to race around your back garden and it's anything less than perfectly-cut grass (or even that hideous astro-turf) then you're better off with a monster truck.  

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The DF-01 / TA-01 relationship is an interesting one. While only Tamiya insiders would be able to know for sure, their release dates of October 1990 and July 1991 respectively suggest that the buggy was developed first, then the touring car derived from it, rather like the DF-03 and DF-03RA, rather than the current norm of buggies being based on touring cars, or generic chassis being developed with both applications in mind from the outset.

I also wonder if expectations have something to do with regional variations as to what constitutes a well-kept lawn? I have never had any issues with my DF-02 or TT-02B running in the garden or at the park, but many others (such as @ChrisRx718 above) report difficulties with these models on grass. Maybe we Lincolnshire folk simply cut our grass shorter?

Finally, I agree that the TL-01B is surprisingly good off-road considering its origins. Furthermore, the weak lower arm mounts can be addressed by fitting the 54695 aluminium support bridge, and the towers with aftermarket reinforcement pieces from several manufacturers ranging from 3Racing to Fibre-lyte. 

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