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matisse

What do we really expect out of a Re-Re?

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Since I’ve been back on the forum I’ve noticed a lot of post like this:

” bought a re-re it’s nice and everything but then I bought a newer car , and man the new one is so much better!”

it’s makes me ask two questions, the first being, what did you expect?

technology has moved on, our understanding of suspension, chassis construction, damping forces, flex, paper transmissions.... they’re all moved onZ is it so surprising that a 30-40yr old design isn’t as good as a modern one? 
 

Bill Simmons covers this well in the book of basketball when comparing players from different eras, he compared them to cars.  If you compare  a 60s BMW or Merc to a modern one, the modern one is better in every conceivable way. They just are. But...back then they made a few transcendent cars. Feats of engineering that stand the test of time.

Which brings me onto my Second Question: what it is it about Tamiya that they have so many Transcendent RC cars?!  Move than any other company they’ve created models that stand the test of time, Some of which compare favourably to modern counterparts.

a non exhaustive list:

Sand scorcher, blazing blazer, lunchbox, monster beetle, Hotshot, ThunderShot, Super Astute, Dyna Storm, Top Force (&evo), Hornet, Grasshopper, Clodbuster, Terra Schorcher, 

I don’t know the on-road cars well enough but I’m sure a few of those chassis will join that list.

Compare that to other brands and they pale in comparison.  
 

 

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I expect from my re-res much the same as I expect from my restomods - the opportunity to experience and idea of what a model was like back in the day, but perhaps with some modern refinements to improve reliability. I certainly don't expect them to out-perform their modern equivalents.

The exception is perhaps the F-103, which I find to be every bit as competitive as modern F1s. But then the fundamentals of pan car/F1 design haven't really changed much over the last few decades, so perhaps this is unsurprising.

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I think a lot of re-releases are bought on the basis of "I remember them from when I was a kid and never had one/wanted another one". Originally marketed to kids its (mostly) the same people buying them again now I reckon. Its a bit like the technic lego - used to be something for young teenagers but are now "adult toys" (no, not like that!) - teenagers these days aren't interested in RC/lego (big generalisation..).

If the re-releases live up to the memories is probably an individual thing. There are a suprising number of RCers who build shelf queens and never even run them.

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This topic is why i am done buying rere kits, Love em but once i ran brushless lipo it sorta ended that trip....

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I expect pretty much what I got out of them the first time around only with fresh plastics. I think because I mostly always stuck with the older models, I didn't have to shift my expectations much at all. After dipping my toe into the pool of newer stuff with an Emaxx, TRF201, etc. plus trying brushless, I decided it wasn't for me. I'm glad I experienced it so I could make informed decisions on my taste but, in the end, my Castle 4600 combo has sat on the bench for years and the newer stuff got sold off. Watching vehicles go exactly where you point them, run from one end of the yard to the other at ankle-breaking speed and leap insanely into the air is cool and all but doesn't keep my interest. Watching models I lusted after in the 80's come together on my work bench and to life in my backyard does keep my interest. Because they were of such importance, I still drive them with the care and parameters they were intended to operate within. Sometimes they even give me a surprise or two at just how good they can be at times.

Have they let me down at times? Yes. I was not happy when my Fire Dragon gears were so malformed at the root of their teeth, the thing clicked and clacked around the yard sounding like a cheap windup toy. If I had gotten a re-re Blackfoot/Monster Beetle and been stuck with driveshafts falling out or a diff that started self-destructing under kit supplied power after two runs, I wouldn't be happy. To me, those are faulty parts or designs Tamiya really should have looked at upgrading (like they did for the Avante/Egress uprights) to make them suitably reliable out-of-the-box. What I don't expect is for any of the re-res to reliably take tons of brushless power (though some surprisingly do) , leap over houses, handle perfectly etc, all without breaking or handling, well...like something out of the 80's. The rereleases are fine to me and others always have to keep them in the context of their era when considering their performance. Admittedly, memory can be a tricky thing and things many folks thought were great back in the day can disappoint in the present. For those folks, maybe its a gamble to meet one's heroes or dig up the past, in a manner of speaking.

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For me the re-re's are the only reason I've stuck with RC for so long....

Memories fade, the re-re's have revitalised them and made them better than ever.

I've gone round the cycle of brushed to brushless pushing models beyond their limits, breaking and repairing them...it got boring eventually...

Now out of the box with a steel pinion, bb's and maybe no faster than 20t motor is the sweet spot for buggies that don't break at every run but wear at an acceptable rate, to the point where I've ended up selling on collections of spares, never needed most of them!

Running in a smaller area helps with this to not dampen expectation, a hornet in a vast car park with a 540 gets dull quickly but on a trail or on a 10m squared area or so, you can weave around and brake skid before hitting the boundaries etc, fine! While all the time experiencing the capabilities they were designed for.

The whole experience of the re-re outweighs any modern performance buggy, the box, the build, hopping up, repairing a wreck it's a complete package which quite a few don't get sucked into...but I did!

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The re-re represent exactly what they are. I buy them as tributes to the original cars that I lusted after as a young bloke. I don’t expect them to perform like my AE race buggies (truth be told, they rarely get run anyway if at all). I still have some to build, and probably will continue to monitor releases to see what else interests me. My collection is probably 60-40 right now between originals and re-re’s.

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I want a bit more of a tweak.  Tamiya does it already.    

Novafox, for example, has a better anti-sway bar.  Novafox looks slightly different if you compare it to the vintage Fox. But it works better.  Many re-issued ones like FAV, Wild One, Blackfoot and Frog, etc. come with dog-bones, instead of hexa-bones. And an ESC.  Blackfoot comes with rudimentary CVA shocks that's too stiff, instead of pogostick springs.  I like these little improvements.  For 99.9% of Tamiya buyers, they wouldn't even notice. Even if they do, "huh, I guess that's changed," and they'd quickly forget.  (of course, I'm not talking about hardcore veterans of Tamiya RC. Tamiya would get less complaints over all. They'd sell more)   

To go a step further, I wish the plastic was a bit less brittle, a bit tighter tolerances for parts, etc. You wouldn't notice the difference unless you bump into things.  Maybe steel gear plate for Blackfoot (or optional reinforcement).  Kinda like how Tamiya sold ball diffs for Super Champ.  

Our memory makes everything look better in hindsight.  Might as well re-issued kits match that rosy imagery of the past... 

 

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Re re allows me to buy and build my childhood wish list from a kit and for a reasonable amount of money 

JJ

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7 minutes ago, Problemchild said:

Re re allows me to buy and build my childhood wish list from a kit and for a reasonable amount of money 

JJ

Hit the nail on the head.

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5 hours ago, matisse said:

1) it’s makes me ask two questions, the first being, what did you expect?

2) what it is it about Tamiya that they have so many Transcendent RC cars?!

1) A source for replacement parts. Oh, and replacement decals. Most the times you just get deceived by the names of the cars, though.

2) We are kids from the 70's and we love models cars, you know. Almost every one I know from my generation like toy cars. And when time came for the "buggy fever" back in the mid 80's the hottest and most expensive, and most of all the most beautiful cars (and boxes) were made by Tamiya. Prices were (and still are) so unreasonably steep, I believe that kind of pushed some sort of idea or notion inside most kids, as if they were made in heaven or something. And most Tamiya cars were things to fantasize about, they were pretty much like I don't know, Susan Lynn Kiger in some old Playboy magazine or something. An impossible dream. I believe most nowadays RC guys started dreaming about them back then and with lots of luck (and or work) got to use these cars. I know I had to save money for two LONG years before I could finally buy the first one. I truly believe Tamiya was successful in making us think of their products as if they were heaven-made. See, all the cars you mention, they're lousy runners. But I know I still love them with passion. And probably will always do. There's some type of fantasy about these cars. Plastic models that worth a fortune, and for some reason make you happy. It's totally crazy. 

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How much was a monster beetle in the 80s?

anyone know?

According to the Bank of England calculator, a monster beetle that costs £200 now would have cost you £70 in 1986. 
 

JJ

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32 minutes ago, Problemchild said:

How much was a monster beetle in the 80s?

anyone know?

According to the Bank of England calculator, a monster beetle that costs £200 now would have cost you £70 in 1986. 
 

JJ

 As far as I can tell Tamiya prices are just about the same now, maybe a little more meaning with inflation they have fallen significantly.  My fire dragon in 1989 was like $139 if I remember correctly. 

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Well, math differs a lot for us in the poorer hemisphere. To put things in perspective, the minimum wage for us in 1992 was $40000 CLP. That of course for a full month of work. I got a Midnight Pumpkin kit in our LHS for $97000 CLP. And I remember the kit I dreamed with was the Clod Buster kit which you could buy for about $260000 CLP. That money for just the kit, no extras!

Things were so expensive I remember buying a pack of original Tamiya bearings in 1993. And it was not enough to remove all of the nylon bearings off my Pumpkin. I still keep the original package. Heck, I still have the bags and stuff they handed me the items with-for some reason I just couldn't bring myself to throw a thing :D

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6 hours ago, Problemchild said:

How much was a monster beetle in the 80s?

anyone know?

According to the Bank of England calculator, a monster beetle that costs £200 now would have cost you £70 in 1986. 
 

JJ

The nominal prices are very similar, which of course makes them a whole lot cheaper now. I remember in around 1995 a Super Hornet was $189, which is roughly what a DT03 was a year ago (kits are about 50% more right now that they were a year ago, I'm hoping its a blip and not permanent). Then about $150 more for battery, charger and radio gear if bought as a package, but more if bought separately. 

Monster Beetle about $300 down here in the late 80s, and I paid $295 3 years ago.

As people have said already, I like rere's for what they are - a chance to build kits I couldn't have BiTD. If you manage your expectations, ie they won't perform like a modern car or handle low turn brushless motors, then they don't disppoint. They look so good too

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For me:

I love the opportunity to drive them without any regrets. For instance: my Wild One, it has a Tourque Tuned Motor in it and it is very fast. I bash it around and it gets a hard Beating.

With an old Model i would never run them hard. They are more for the Shelve. I run them, but i'm always afraid of getting anything broken and not getting the broken Part again....

 

Also i love to drive the old Cars. It is like Videogames, i love Videogames from the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, but i can't stand most Games of the current Generation.

It's just simple fun. 

The Lunch Box is one of the Models that are the most fun vehicles of it all, but it isn't performing anything like good.

 

I could buy a 100kmh Traxxas that could jump 5meters high and roll over anything, but its not my cup of tea.

 

I would be enjoing a "retro race event" with rere or vintage cars, but not a super modern race event with super high end race vehicles.

 

I can unterstand the fun of modern day drifting or jumping/flying. But jumping over a Broomstick on the Ground with a Lunchbox will always put a Smile on my Face.

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Thought they were about the same price now :)

I remember paying over £100 for a second hand clod 

JJ

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I would like Tamiya to manufacture lots of replacement parts for the re-release and solve any distribution issues so that we can purchase the spares from more than one source at any time we need them.

Without a good supply of spare parts, the re-releases are not very attractive to me.   I'm especially unlikely buy optional upgrades such as ball diff, if it looks like it will be impossible to buy other parts in a few years.

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9 hours ago, mongoose1983 said:

1) A source for replacement parts. Oh, and replacement decals. Most the times you just get deceived by the names of the cars, though.

2) We are kids from the 70's and we love models cars, you know. Almost every one I know from my generation like toy cars. And when time came for the "buggy fever" back in the mid 80's the hottest and most expensive, and most of all the most beautiful cars (and boxes) were made by Tamiya. Prices were (and still are) so unreasonably steep, I believe that kind of pushed some sort of idea or notion inside most kids, as if they were made in heaven or something. And most Tamiya cars were things to fantasize about, they were pretty much like I don't know, Susan Lynn Kiger in some old Playboy magazine or something. An impossible dream. I believe most nowadays RC guys started dreaming about them back then and with lots of luck (and or work) got to use these cars. I know I had to save money for two LONG years before I could finally buy the first one. I truly believe Tamiya was successful in making us think of their products as if they were heaven-made. See, all the cars you mention, they're lousy runners. But I know I still love them with passion. And probably will always do. There's some type of fantasy about these cars. Plastic models that worth a fortune, and for some reason make you happy. It's totally crazy. 

Googles Susan Lynn Kiger Playboy.........:wub::ph34r:

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I’ve not struggled with parts at all 

I know the terra scorcher has not come with as many spares but there’s a lot going on at the moment and they can’t meet the demand for the kits because of covid etc 

move just ordered parts for the avante, had a million clod parts (all screw bags to a full chassis), beetle, wild one, mantaray, etc etc. 
 

only part I’ve struggled with is battery stay for the mad bull - but that’s because of price mainly 

JJ

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23 minutes ago, mtbkym01 said:

Googles Susan Lynn Kiger Playboy.........:wub::ph34r:

Pretty much a NIB Japanese Avante for a 15 year old kid. :zp04:

 

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4 hours ago, mtbkym01 said:

Googles Susan Lynn Kiger Playboy.........:wub::ph34r:

I did the same and remember finding the March 1977 edition in my Dad's shed when I was younger... :lol:

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People get too hung up on how newer chassis look. They see the colored aluminum, the carbon fiber, the intentional attractive design elements and think that means good, or better. Then they see a Tamiya with it's keep it simple philosophy and think it's trash.

When i see a re-re I expect one thing only. Access to a model that i may have not had access to before.

 

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I'd consider modern buggies if they didn't look like they were designed by bros to appeal to WWE enthusiasts.

Shallow, but that's my reasoning.

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