Do You Race a Tamiya Off Road?

[BuggyGuy 758]

I know it's too soon - but fingers crossed the new TD4 is at least capable club racer (shows some promise but also major concerns so far at least until the manual shows up!).

The classics can't really compete, and the TT-02B is not great, and the DF-03 has its own woes when shown some brushless power on a high grip surface - especially if any jumps might be involved.

Maybe we'll be waiting for the TD4R though... But fingers crossed it will perform reasonably well without having to spend more than just buying the latest Xray/Losi/Schue/AE! 

[djmcnz 749]

IMHO...

A vintage/re-re Tamiya buggy (e.g. TF/E) could compete with modern buggies but just not on modern dirt tracks, the jumps are too high and the double/triples are too aggressive. Only the most technical modern tracks would challenge the tuning options on a 1990's buggy.

A DB-01 with the right Hop-Ups and in the right hands could absolutely take on a modern buggy and I'd put my 501X (retired) or any of my 511's up against any modern buggy on any modern track, including carpet. Carpet would require a complete reconfiguration though but this doesn't concern me, I'm experienced enough to set up ball diffs and slipper clutches pretty well although I realise many people can't/don't/won't do that.

I don't see any possibility that the TD-04 chassis could be remotely competitive against the other-brand modern competition, I'd bet on a well sorted DB over the new TD. I'm very dubious about the laydown front shocks and some of the other design elements, I hope I'm proven wrong. 

[Unknown Driver 262]

13 hours ago, Sir Crashalot said:

Yeah, probably.

The first offroad race meet I went to as a spectator was dominated by Tamiyas. When I started racing a few years later nobody had them.

Yup. Sometimes I wish the hobby would go backwards. Race cars have become complex to the point that if you don't put effort into studying chassis setup you're at a disadvantage. I've seen lots of people buy a new 22 buggy, B6, etc and struggle because their notion of what works on-track is way far off from reality.

While I'm sure they tweaked the cars 20+ years ago, there's something nice about just charging a pack and driving.

[djmcnz 749]

I'm not sure that people realise that even a 1990's buggy had tons of tuning options and to be competitive, even at club level, you needed to understand how to tune a chassis, just like you need to today. We did have way less carpet back then though.

Ball diff tuning, gear diff tuning with gunk, springs, shock oil, shock position, toe, camber, castor, weight distribution, ride height, Tx ramps, tyres, inserts, etc, etc... 98% of people never understood most of this back then, I reckon the numbers would be the same today. We just used a lot more shims back then, nowadays you can mostly get tuning parts to swap in instead of shimming standard parts.

 

 

[Wooders28 4202]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:14 AM, djmcnz said:

Ball diff tuning, gear diff tuning with gunk, springs, shock oil, shock position, toe, camber, castor, weight distribution, ride height, Tx ramps, tyres, inserts, etc, etc...

Then there was dealing with a brushed motor, different brush hardness, cutting brushes, cleaning or even cutting the com and obviously worrying about which wind for the track, so your battery didn't dump.

Todays racing is so much easier tbh, Set up sheets are posted online, pretty much all the hop ups are available,  not really many 'factory only ' parts out there (top guys will be testing, but there's only a handful worldwide) only needing a few tweeks for personal preference, it helps a manufacturer if everyone with their car is quick.

Motors are much more flexible, so you don't really need to swap motors, or even gears (just add a bit more turbo if the straight is a bit longer), and with lipos, you just don't run out of juice, so it's not even a consideration.

[legacygt777 22]

On 7/8/2021 at 2:53 AM, djmcnz said:

IMHO...

A vintage/re-re Tamiya buggy (e.g. TF/E) could compete with modern buggies but just not on modern dirt tracks, the jumps are too high and the double/triples are too aggressive. Only the most technical modern tracks would challenge the tuning options on a 1990's buggy.

A DB-01 with the right Hop-Ups and in the right hands could absolutely take on a modern buggy and I'd put my 501X (retired) or any of my 511's up against any modern buggy on any modern track, including carpet. Carpet would require a complete reconfiguration though but this doesn't concern me, I'm experienced enough to set up ball diffs and slipper clutches pretty well although I realise many people can't/don't/won't do that.

I don't see any possibility that the TD-04 chassis could be remotely competitive against the other-brand modern competition, I'd bet on a well sorted DB over the new TD. I'm very dubious about the laydown front shocks and some of the other design elements, I hope I'm proven wrong. 

I have raced for a long time 1/10 buggy starting with the ultima in 87 as a kid (lapped all the frogs and hornets but not rc10s).  I raced in the early 90s. Early 2k's.  2015-16.  And recently 2019 using a modern Kyosho Rb6 and Associated RC10B74 before the pandemic.  

Having own the DB-01,there's no way a DB-01 or 501x modded buggy could take on 2021 modern competition (Associated/Kyosho/Xray/Yokomo) against competitive racers with similar skills.  At the carpet raceway here in Texas, there's a vintage class with many early 90s models.  The lap times are pretty wide against the lap times against modern competition.  We're talking about 3-5 lap differences just for qualifiers.   So tuning a 90s buggy can only do so much against todays competition.

Offroad, modern buggies have much more efficient drive trains in the past 5 years.  DB-01 drive train is already obsolete and both Tamiyas have terrible screw setups not to mention the sloppy sleering.  Even the steering on todays buggies are tighter and more accurate in the past 10 years.  Have you seen a Yokomo YZ Cal 3 or Xray XB2 run a modern track?  These cars put some series lap times with skilled drivers.   

And if you race on the weekend, all cars break something.  The problem with Tamiyas its so hard to get parts. There's so much to do just to get these Tamiyas competitive while these modern buggys can race after its built.  

[Trf guy 5]

I still actively race trf503's on indoor clay - 

The buggy is dialed in on this track and is regularly in the b main and makes an appearance in the a main about once a month!

This is against the newest xray/associated/tlr/sworkz on the market.

Yes- I have to be my own hobby shop at the trrack with spare parts and I also have 2 spare 503's in case.

I also run a trf211xm (composite chassis) on a outdoor dirt track in summer and have numerous trf801x amd xt 1/8 vehicles to run there as well.

[Turbotom 161]

My astute in last years iconic rc revival. I was more than impressed with how it held up and competitive it was. Yes tamiya's do break easy..... but the more you practise the better you become and breakages become less and less! Just my thoughts!

At the end of the day just have fun.

[Unknown Driver 262]

Figure I'll throw in my $0.02 (that's USD...so it's worth less. haha)...

For the record: I REALLY WISH Tamiya still made race-quality cars. I currently run Team Associated for buggy/truck and I'd drop them in a heartbeat, even if it meant dealing with part availability.

That said: until TRF is resurrected, it would be extremely difficult to successfully race any of the current cars against modern buggies. The last-gen TRF cars would probably be okay with some tweaking, but parts will kill you. Other platforms, including the TD4/2, just don't have the adjustability to run successfully on carpet, astro, or even high-grip dirt. (Caster, rear toe, anti-squat, roll center, kickup, diff height, gear diffs, etc etc etc.)

[BuggyGuy 758]

On 4/25/2022 at 8:14 PM, Unknown Driver said:

Figure I'll throw in my $0.02 (that's USD...so it's worth less. haha)...

For the record: I REALLY WISH Tamiya still made race-quality cars. I currently run Team Associated for buggy/truck and I'd drop them in a heartbeat, even if it meant dealing with part availability.

That said: until TRF is resurrected, it would be extremely difficult to successfully race any of the current cars against modern buggies. The last-gen TRF cars would probably be okay with some tweaking, but parts will kill you. Other platforms, including the TD4/2, just don't have the adjustability to run successfully on carpet, astro, or even high-grip dirt. (Caster, rear toe, anti-squat, roll center, kickup, diff height, gear diffs, etc etc etc.)

Not saying your wrong - but the TD4 has all of that apart from front roll center adjustments & diff heights, and the kickup (not that that's adjustable on any other competitive off roader as far as I know). Gear diffs drop straight in. 

I expect hopups for roll centre adjustment to appear at some point. Diff height will never be adjustable unless Tamiya release a carbon chassis kit with new bulkheads though.

[Unknown Driver 262]

Is most of that adjustment gained with hop-up parts? Or maybe I'm not seeing it in the manual.

The a-b-c-d blocks are molded and don't have pill-inserts, so you can't change anti-squat or rear toe in kit form. Same with axle height front and rear (no pills, so it's fixed) and caster (no pills in the front knuckles). Pretty much every competitive offroad car right now (LD2, 5.0, B6.4, YZ2 Cal3 and their 4wd brothers) have some way to adjust kickup (same as caster) - either via the front pivot block or a pill system.

It would be cool if Tamiya released the parts to make the car much closer to race-capable (like a "TRF kit") - given the car's price compared to modern 4wd buggies they'd be able to throw $200 of hop-ups in it and still be cost-equal.

Probably won't happen, but it would be cool if it did.

 

[BuggyGuy 758]

Yeah you need the rear hopup suspension mount to be able to adjust anti squat and toe.

For front caster adjustment you could go from the kit hubs which I think are 10 degree to the DB01 12 degree items.

I agree it's not as adjustable as a competition car, but I see it more as a DF03/TT02B replacement than a new TRF style buggy.

Maybe there will be an MS or R version in a couple of years, but I wouldn't hold my breath on this bringing it up to parity with a TRF car either tbh!

[Knighte 11]

On 5/3/2022 at 4:28 AM, BuggyGuy said:

Yeah you need the rear hopup suspension mount to be able to adjust anti squat and toe.

For front caster adjustment you could go from the kit hubs which I think are 10 degree to the DB01 12 degree items.

I agree it's not as adjustable as a competition car, but I see it more as a DF03/TT02B replacement than a new TRF style buggy.

Maybe there will be an MS or R version in a couple of years, but I wouldn't hold my breath on this bringing it up to parity with a TRF car either tbh!

So that is why the DB01 hop up hubs suddenly became hard to find?

[BuggyGuy 758]

6 hours ago, Knighte said:

So that is why the DB01 hop up hubs suddenly became hard to find?

Yeah I think so - they were quite common on eBay etc until the TD4 showed up, they also fit the XV01 IIRC (so maybe the XV02 as well?)