TB-03 - Project Can I Get a 4WD Touring Car Working For Me?

[ruebiracer 1046]

Very cool report again, and thanks for your experiences! Seems really the bevels need to be paired with the corresponding crown gear.

I think your choice on the gear diff oils will work for sure. What is not clear to me is why you spin out on the brakes with the slipper spool built out of the gear diff. Usually you should brake **** straight with a spool. Maybe it slips too early? It´s important to clean the Teflon blocks and the corresponding surfaces very good from oil and grease. If there are any residues from former balldiff use, there is not enough friction. Also the screw should really be cranked quite down. If you do too  too much, the plastic outdrive parts from the diff can be killed. (Did it one time, **** me). Should be no danger when using the Aluminum outdrives.

But Honza brought already another idea up, that I forgot: When using the TB04 crown gears in the ball diff, you can use more balls or Teflon blocks. That should also give more friction in the whole assy. Guess I have to test that on mine too analyze the benefits...

I really like those FWD spec wheels and Tires, too! They do not offer the total grip like other racing slicks, but have a very nice balance and can be used even outdoors with some more dust on the track. On black CRC carpet I also had not any grip roll problem on Sunday afternoon, which is usually the case when the carpet soaks up more and more of the traction compounds...

And yes, how nice are spoked wheels, never been a fan of dish wheels. Guess I´m more of a scale looks guy...

Good success for the rebuild and the next drives, you will be pleased, I tend to say!

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Raining yesterday afternoon, so big session on the TB03. Firstly, @Honza and @ruebiracer were double right about the EVO IV crown and bevel gears. I went to fit the rear gear diff (built with 1500cst oil BTW), and refit the front diff, but using the 17t drive bevels from the 39t EVO IV spool gear sets i bought. They don't fit the TB03 prop shaft outdrives! Too deep and not large enough hole at the ends. So, TB03 fans, DO NOT buy the 51109 sets if you want to build gear diffs for your TB03! Luckily i only drilled one to try and make it fit, so i have a complete unused set i can set and lightly used crown gear that would be useful to a TB02 or EVO IV owner too. I have ordered the EVO V parts 51255, as i still really want the option of dropping the different diffs in and out, hence avoiding the TB04 40t set. Ultimately it will mean i have exactly what i want so no bad thing for the sake or a few quid on parts. 

Second little detail was that a set of NIP tamiya blue alloy shock collars popped up on ebay uk from someone who thought they would fit his big bore shocks. Seems we all fall victim to tamiya "nearly but not quite" part fitting! I felt bad swiping them off the yeah racing shocks and leaving them with cva collars for selling, so now all is good on the shock adjustment front. Just waiting on the 12mm o rings to stop them moving so easily. 

The final piece of the puzzle was a Shapeways delivery.... 

This is my bearing anti roll bar kit for IFS suspension. I designed it for the FF03, because the kit mount had stripped, and i didn't want to buy an entire K parts tree for one bit. Plus, i could never get that balance of free movement versus retention on the basic clamps. However, when the first design didn't work and i needed an update, i had my TB03, which was missing a brace on the IFS posts for a start. Plus, I wanted to fit the TRF419 front arms, and you can't use the stock front anti roll bar setup, because you have to flip the arms for the shovk mount to drive the IFS rocker which puts the anti roll bar ball on the front of the arms. I did this on the FF03, and this gets around the problem by the anti roll bar being mounted high up over the top of all the suspension. I adopted the same option here. 

Firstly i had to fit the front arms. Off came everything, and when i refitted them they kept binding. It seemed the pivot pin was angled slightly with the kit suggested 3mm spacers under the rear mount. I tried some other spacers and couldn't stop it binding, so in the end I flipped the front mount too and put 3mm spacers under that to guarantee a straight, level run on the pivot pin, and the arms are completely free. Because of the offset of the TRF419 arms i put them with the spacers all at the front and the wheelbase is pretty much the same. 

 

Once all back together, I fitted the anti roll bar. After trying a few different bar shapes, turned out the TA06 front bar i had on the car anyway fit fit. Here the assembly process. 

The collars in the centre are loosely fitted to the bar and 840 bearings push on. Then you push it through the slots in the housing and push the bearing in. Then you centre the bar and use the grub screws on the collars to clamp it in place. 

I used some spare 3x32 turnbuckles for the dropper links, the stock 4mm ball connectors on the arms, and some open trf adjusters on the top to allow adjustment of the bar length. 

 

I put it back together with the ball diffs and gave it a run and it feels really good. The IFS pushrods needed a bit of adjustment shorter to get the shocks in the right range of adjustment, but once there it drove really nice. It's not a massive difference to the TRF416 front arms, but i am really pleased with this finishing touch to the suspension. 

Once I have the new crown gear parts i will fet back to the track and see what setup i like. 

[Mark3gti 151]

Love the custom sway bar holders! 👍👍

 

i had tried to order that ifs brace for a while, as really liked the look of it! 😂 but  Tony’s and Tamiya both failed, but it was on the tb evo 3 and not available anywhere!  I was going to try one off a ff chassis but in the end, I opted for non ifs towards the end. And run a regular shock tower. Would mean you could put the arms on the right way round as well. 
But as your getting good results it’s probably worth sticking with ifs! 👍

the evo iv bevels are screwed on, But on my evo v they were held on with c clips. you maybe able to use the evo iv shafts in the 03 with a cheese head screw and it may clear ok. (I had to take 1.5mm off the face facing the diff to clear and works well)

  I think I have some new shafts I could measure to compare if needed. 

[Honza 937]

You can fit Evo 4 gear on TB03 shaft, if you drill hole to correct diameter and file that excess material. I did it by placing gear on 5mm shaft, so it could spin freely, and then used dremel to take material away evenly.

[ruebiracer 1046]

Very nice touch using an IFS brace as stabilizer holder!

And thanks for the reminder about the bevel gears. I didn´t remember that the fixing is different. So you really have to know, which parts to use.

Do you know, if the old crown gears fit the TB04 diffs? I think, this is the problem, why you have to use all the new parts when switching to the TB04 diffs...

Bu in the end you will have success. This drivetrain is so good it made it to the TB05 with the same gear cases since TB03 was designed. You just have to identify the right parts to fit.

[ruebiracer 1046]

1 hour ago, Mark3gti said:

Love the custom sway bar holders! 👍👍

 

i had tried to order that ifs brace for a while, as really liked the look of it! 😂 but  Tony’s and Tamiya both failed, but it was on the tb evo 3 and not available anywhere!  I was going to try one off a ff chassis but in the end, I opted for non ifs towards the end. And run a regular shock tower. Would mean you could put the arms on the right way round as well. 
But as your getting good results it’s probably worth sticking with ifs! 👍

the evo iv bevels are screwed on, But on my evo v they were held on with c clips. you maybe able to use the evo iv shafts in the 03 with a cheese head screw and it may clear ok. (I had to take 1.5mm off the face facing the diff to clear and works well)

  I think I have some new shafts I could measure to compare if needed. 

The IFS Alu brace is nice, but I think it was special to the TB03 R kits and probably the TA 05 counterpart. Unfortunately this is a sad Tamiya strategy on some limited release kits. You cannot get special parts as a spare part. Same on M06 R (suspension parts/weights), and M07 R (battery fixings).

I got one from my first TB03 R kit I still have, the second kit I bought used was missing the brace. Today I know why...

 

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

@Mark3gtiThanks! It's such a nice solution on the FF03, and my FF03 has the TA07 arms (same shape as 419) flipped and the suspension works really well. Just seemed an obvious choice when i had 419 arms swiped off my TA06 "in stock", and i really like the IFS. The original tb03 sway bar location is really tight on the driveshafts at the front, so although this is much higher, there isn't much weight in it, it clears everything, is super smooth AND my IFS rockers don't look unfinished.

Don't worry about measuring the EVO IV parts, I will get this working one way or another with these parts. 

@HonzaThanks for the tip, but i think i will just stick with the EVO V parts. I couldn't ev3n get the EVO IV bevel gear to fit over the cross pin on the TB03 outdrives so i gave up at that point.

@ruebiracer I don't know for sure if the EVO V crown gears fit the TB04 gear diffs, but the 39t EVO IV one fitted just fine. Like i said, for a few pounds for parts i don't mind trying out. It is crazy that they ran so many different permutations of bevels and crown gears within 3 generations of car.

It is frustrating those nice blue parts can't be sourced. The brace on the TB03R looks well trick! 

[Honza 937]

1 hour ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

I couldn't ev3n get the EVO IV bevel gear to fit over the cross pin on the TB03 outdrives so i gave up at that point.

That's because small hole for screw has 2mm in diameter, but input shaft is 3mm. Crosspin is same 2x8mm.

You're right, it's extra work to make it fit, it's needed only if you want low FDR.

[ruebiracer 1046]

2 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

 

@ruebiracer I don't know for sure if the EVO V crown gears fit the TB04 gear diffs, but the 39t EVO IV one fitted just fine. Like i said, for a few pounds for parts i don't mind trying out. It is crazy that they ran so many different permutations of bevels and crown gears within 3 generations of car.

It is frustrating those nice blue parts can't be sourced. The brace on the TB03R looks well trick! 

O.k., maybe you got me wrong. Just was tinkering if the original TB03 crown gears pop on the TB04 diffs. But goof to know, that Evo V works!

Yes, the brace is nice. When my TB03 R gets its restauration with IFS, it will get on again!

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Moment of truth time. The Evo V 39t spool gear arrived to try to fit to the TB04 gear diffs

And it works! Kind of..... 

On the front diff, it is perfect. The mesh is clean and tight with the kit 16t drive bevel, unlike with Evo IV crown gear i tried last week. I shimmed it tight and ran and it perfect. No strange noises under braking, clean power delivery, vety nice. 

Onto the rear! Filed down the prop shaft end, fitted the 39t crown gear, shimmed, all fit perfectly. Then i went to put the rear suspension back together aaaaaaaaannnnddddd....... 

It doesn't fit! The car had 46mm lightweight swingshafts on the rear, and the gear diff doesn't allow as much driveshaft plunge as the ball diff. ******! Works on the front because i have wide track 1F blocks. Rear is much narrower - 1D/1XA. I have some 42mm unis coming out of my FF03 because i just got DCJ for that, but they were supposed to go on my RR-03Ra. Anyone want to swap some nice, blue aluminium 46mm swing shafts for 44mm? 🙄

[TwistedxSlayer 1290]

Not got any 44mm swing shafts. But I will be needing a set of 46mm ones for my Evo IV build at some point.

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Picked up some slicks. Guy was selling used Sweep34 with a few runs on. As new ones are like hens teeth figured it would be interesting for practice. First thing is they have a way more oversteer balance than the frontie treaded tyres. Not sure i like it! Was running 300k oil gear diff front and the ball diff rear. Rotated a lot on turn in, but exit traction seemed good. I went from thickest to thinnest rear anti roll bar and it improved a bit. 

This afternoon i wondered about a more open front diff. I have the other gear diff with 2k oil in for the rear, but i put it in the front to see if it helped turn in oversteer. It didn't! Also seemed slightly more wayward under power so i think the thicker oil front diff is better. I put the medium (from softest ) front bar on which helped a bit again, and then raised front ride height and bit better again. Will get to the track for much testing next week to see about a sorted setup there. 

Still much prefer the spoked wheels, but the decals give these a bit of interest at least. 

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Did a bit of spannering ahead of a trip to the track this week. Put the 300k oil gear diff back in the front. Some 44mm lightweight swing shafts arrived so they got fitted at the back to give room for the gear diff option. Left the ball diff in for now as don't want to change too many things at once. And i decided to add some spacers under the rear ball studs to lower the roll centre for some more grip, see if that calms the rear end down at the track. 

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

@ruebiracer This is all your fault...

No YOU are a hopeless hop up addict! SHUT UP! 😂

Arrived today from Eagle Racing in HK. Its beautiful, but I am off to the track now so these will have to wait. 

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Track time! Lovely conditions. 

First stumble was the rear diff seemed jammed. Opened it up, finally figured out that the 8mm long ball studs i put on the inner links were fouling the outdrives. Decided seeing as it was opened up to put the gear diff in. Ran it on the slicks and the balance was quite edgy. Did a few changes and it got a bit better, but after a good lot of running i decided to put the treaded frontie tyres back on and suddenly it was much easier to drive? Not less grip, if anything it was faster, but the car just seems to like them better, so i like them better! Ironically i ran my FF03 as well and it was great on the slicks! 

[ruebiracer 1046]

11 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

@ruebiracer This is all your fault...

No YOU are a hopeless hop up addict! SHUT UP! 😂

Arrived today from Eagle Racing in HK. Its beautiful, but I am off to the track now so these will have to wait. 

I build my own trap , look what arrived this week for my Resto and for my M08:

For your motor mount: This is the total lightweight version. It has openings to save weight. If you run outdoors, you could think of foam blocks to close the gaps for sand etc.. I find the capsuled drivetrain one of the positive aspects of the original TB03. There is a second, closed version in the shop, at least it was. Have to check it, it looks similar, just without the holes.

You really infected me to restore my TB03 R. Just need time for it... First I have to kick of my DynaStorm project.

Thanks for the new track info!

Kind regards,

Matthias

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

@ruebiracerHa! Nice haul of Eagle parts there 😉 Thanks for the advice on the motor mount. I will see where it is very open when i fit it and add some foam. I agree, the closed drivetrain is a nice feature, although it makes rear diff access time consuming! That said, my FF03 G4R conversion does not fit any spur covers anymore, and runs with open pinion and spur in similar conditions, and so far with no problems. I guess that is completely open though, so nothing can get stuck. With the TB03 i could stones getting through the holes into cavity and not getting out again.

I look forward to seeing your TB03R. 

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Hop up time! Got a bit of tinkering in over breakfast this morning, and got the rear end done. 

First, aluminium shock tower mount. I really like that it's silver which is in keeping with the Flourine shocks and kit prop shaft. 

Then it was time to open up the rear end. This is as it stood last night:

First, the prop drives got swapped for lightweight aluminium. I still have to file down the ends to clear the gear diff, which was quite a bit more nerve wracking on soft aluminium than it was on hard steel. Got it done though. Also silver, which is nice.

There seemed to be a bit of end float in the new one once I had it back together, but luckily I have some 6mm shims which have hung around like a bad smell for years, since I ordered them by mistake when wanting 5mm! Finally I got to use two in front of the thrust bearing.

Next out was motor mount. 

Many more ribs and holes on this, which will hopefully conduct heat better. To be fair, the kit one works very well in that respect though. Following @ruebiracer recommendation above, I cut up some small pieces of foam from a battery delivery box to plug up a couple of the larger holes to prevent stones getting into the drivetrain

All went back together really nicely, and I checked the diff for leaks (none), and topped it up with a dab more 3k oil now it's been run in. Also rechecked the shimming on this too. Looks lovely!

And all back together. You can see the heat sinks on the motor mount poking out, and the nice shock tower mount too. Very nice!

Front shaft and aluminium rockers next......

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Got the front done after work! 

Didn't take any pics of the prop install. Needed to take quite a lot off the end to clear the gear diff, and it needed a lot of shimming both sides of the bearings with 5mm and 6mm shims. Don't know if there was that much end float in the kit version, but it's sorted and free spinning now. 

Fitted the beautiful rockers (again, loving the silver highlights). Added the new bearings that came with the rockers. Needed to redo the shimming. I was using 0.4mm thick schumacher shims, but with the sway bar mount on it was binding the rockers. 2x0.1 shims did the job. Smooth and slop free. Mmmmmmmm, shiny

 

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Not really done much with the TB03 for over a month. Holiday, then quranantine, and mucking about with my FF01 has left this out, mainly because it's pretty sorted. However, when i ordered the FF01 bits from Eagle Racing, i couldn't resist a bit of shiny for the TB03. 

The steering was already pretty well sorted, but these are just beautiful, with bearings at all pivots. It's also pretty much the only thing left to hop up! 

This is the original setup, upgraded nicely with reinforced arms and modified tub to clear a ball jointed connecting rod

And the new one installed. Isn't it pretty? 

Its sooooo smooth. I tried shimming, but it didn't need any in the end. It tightened up nicely once the top stiffener was snugged down. Lovely! 

 

 

[ruebiracer 1046]

On 9/14/2020 at 9:24 PM, ThunderDragonCy said:

Not really done much with the TB03 for over a month. Holiday, then quranantine, and mucking about with my FF01 has left this out, mainly because it's pretty sorted. However, when i ordered the FF01 bits from Eagle Racing, i couldn't resist a bit of shiny for the TB03. 

The steering was already pretty well sorted, but these are just beautiful, with bearings at all pivots. It's also pretty much the only thing left to hop up! 

This is the original setup, upgraded nicely with reinforced arms and modified tub to clear a ball jointed connecting rod

And the new one installed. Isn't it pretty? 

Its sooooo smooth. I tried shimming, but it didn't need any in the end. It tightened up nicely once the top stiffener was snugged down. Lovely! 

 

 

Great option, had the same in one of my TB03´s. Will also use it for my rebuild!

Eagle makes so good stuff for reasonable money...

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

Track day! Finally found some time to get to the track. Been really looking forward to running my TB03 with all its hop ups

There's not actually much to report apart from the fact that it was completely brilliant. I didn't change a thing on it the whole time, and i just ran and ran and ran, lap after lap. It was soooooo good! I am so happy to finally have a 4wd toiring car dialed and fun to drive. I ran an entire pack through it, until the battery died. Just didn't want to stop. Loved it. 

What i did realise is that with all my little bits of hop ups i haven't shown the whole car for a while. Seeing as it's seems to be pretty set now, i thought today would be a good time to show it off

 

Although it runs quite nicely with ny regular square lipo pack and the uktra low cg pack i have, it seems to like the shorty pack best and certainly more so that than FF03 does when on track. 

I think i have put pretty much every hop up on this apart from the carboj rear tower. I don't want that though, because it changes the body post location to a really wide setting that won't fit anything i own, and the reinforced plastic tower works just fine. Only bit i think i will sort in the heat sink. I got it free with an rcmart order years ago, and it does help, but the red ain't great. I think i will get a nice silver one to go with the silver theme. 

Other than that, i think i will calling this one done. I'll post up more trqck running reports and racing just for my own records really, but i don't think there's much more i can do. 

So, in answer to the thread title, yes, i can get a 4wd touring car working for me. 

Cheers! 

 

 

[TurnipJF 9192]

5 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

There's not actually much to report apart from the fact that it was completely brilliant. I didn't change a thing on it the whole time, and i just ran and ran and ran, lap after lap. It was soooooo good! I am so happy to finally have a 4wd toiring car dialed and fun to drive. I ran an entire pack through it, until the battery died. Just didn't want to stop. Loved it. 

I know exactly what you mean - there is something joyous about running a well-sorted TB-03, isn't there? I took mine out this afternoon intending to do a quick 5-minute run to get some laps for the postal race, and not only did the car out-perform everything I had tried previously, but it did so in such a fluid and effortless manner that I also just kept going and going until the battery gave out. I know I have written before that my TT-02 Type S makes me feel like a pro. The TB-03 makes me feel like a champion!

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

10 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

I know exactly what you mean - there is something joyous about running a well-sorted TB-03, isn't there? I took mine out this afternoon intending to do a quick 5-minute run to get some laps for the postal race, and not only did the car out-perform everything I had tried previously, but it did so in such a fluid and effortless manner that I also just kept going and going until the battery gave out. I know I have written before that my TT-02 Type S makes me feel like a pro. The TB-03 makes me feel like a champion!

Isn't it funny how two such ostensibly similar cars in the TB03 and TT02 Type S can be so different? Glad you're enjoying your TB03 too. If i can find enough space to mark a track i'll put down a postal race time too. 

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

Looks great. And maybe the carbon shock tower when you need a new body? TC bodies are pretty much consumables right? Or is that just me...

What about a fan instead of the heatsink? I tried heatsinks but couldn't get the gearing I needed to keep up, a fan allowed a few more teeth on the pinion. With the motor mounted like that you should be able to get one of those U shaped mounts that screw to the motor and not have to muck around with double sided tape etc