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Remember when RC buggies/Truggies looked realistic?

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On 7/9/2020 at 8:35 PM, MadInventor said:

This is what happens when winning is everything and you don't race 'real' cars any more. And yes, IMO, the cobra still looks better.

ac-cobra-petrol-2007.660e2d.jpg

 

Hey that’s not apples for apples....! Many F1 cars look beautiful, because of what it is they’re designed to do. The engineering and the form is incredibly interesting from a design perspective (to some people, not all, obviously). Whilst I’m not a fan of the current season F1 car ‘look’ (due to the rules which IMHO need revising), I find both examples of the types of car you picture above to be equally valid as cars and as objects of interest and beauty (love the Cobra!). 

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I know its semantics, but can you really call the racing types of RC cars, buggies or trucks nowadays but rather just RC vehicles. Because of their size/mass and forces at play, RC vehicles which began as scaled down versions of 1:1 cars, evolved completely different than their full-size (an much prettier, IMHO) counterparts in competition. How can you differentiate between buggy and truck now that neither look anything like the 1:1. Trucks in particular looks more like a 4-legged fidget spinner than a pickup. 

Now as far as racing Tamiyas, one of two things has to happen. Either Tamiya has to get all TRF again and make something that emulates current top level vehicles (think TRF201 being the "metric B4" of its time) or tracks have to return to the ways of yesteryear. The 2nd option is the probably best in most of our minds as Tamiya hobbyist (I'm guessing here, so I accept I may be wrong) but the 1st option is more realistic. For our beloved 80's classic plastic Tamiya buggies, one needs only to look in the guidebooks Tamiya printed to see what they were designed to do at a track. The jumping section specifically states jumps can be up to 20cm.  20cm.  That's well less than a foot in standard measure. Now, I admit as things evolved, some basic/mid level Tamiyas could handle more (think DF03 not DB01 which could probably handle quite a bit more with its reinforced plastic and TRF genes). Still, I don't think Tamiya had handling crazy motocross style jumps in mind for the DF03.

BTW, the whole track layout suggestions in the guidebook show obstacles or features to make driving challenging like a ravine or sandy sections, rather than rock-hard and consistent. 

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I think it explains why I bought CC-01 Defender 90, CC-02 Merc G500 and lastly, Suzuki Jimny MF-01X in the past 2 years!  

I used to own AE TC3 which was one of the best, if not the best touring car at the time it came out but the bodyshell was just lifeless.

Prior to getting Defender 90, I had looked at Traxxas TX4 along with other crawlers/trailers but I thought it was not realistic since it had much bigger & wider wheels/tyres despite being in the same 1/10th as Tamiya one, let along being more expensive.

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8 hours ago, Saito2 said:

I know its semantics, but can you really call the racing types of RC cars, buggies or trucks nowadays but rather just RC vehicles. Because of their size/mass and forces at play, RC vehicles which began as scaled down versions of 1:1 cars, evolved completely different than their full-size (an much prettier, IMHO) counterparts in competition. How can you differentiate between buggy and truck now that neither look anything like the 1:1. Trucks in particular looks more like a 4-legged fidget spinner than a pickup. 

Now as far as racing Tamiyas, one of two things has to happen. Either Tamiya has to get all TRF again and make something that emulates current top level vehicles (think TRF201 being the "metric B4" of its time) or tracks have to return to the ways of yesteryear. The 2nd option is the probably best in most of our minds as Tamiya hobbyist (I'm guessing here, so I accept I may be wrong) but the 1st option is more realistic. For our beloved 80's classic plastic Tamiya buggies, one needs only to look in the guidebooks Tamiya printed to see what they were designed to do at a track. The jumping section specifically states jumps can be up to 20cm.  20cm.  That's well less than a foot in standard measure. Now, I admit as things evolved, some basic/mid level Tamiyas could handle more (think DF03 not DB01 which could probably handle quite a bit more with its reinforced plastic and TRF genes). Still, I don't think Tamiya had handling crazy motocross style jumps in mind for the DF03.

BTW, the whole track layout suggestions in the guidebook show obstacles or features to make driving challenging like a ravine or sandy sections, rather than rock-hard and consistent. 

Totally agree with the comments about the track. A good off road course would include several surfaces. That's the definition of off road. Off road is not a completely uniform surface with slopes. That's on road racing in Wales. Multiple surfaces would level the playing field a lot where a car is dialled in for a particular surface. How much more interesting it would be to have a track that included  tarmac, sand, mud, and gravel. And part of it with a surface rough enough to need a decent amount of ground clearance to get over. Perhaps instead of high jumps perhaps a steep slope to have a to get up. This would obviously require a custom build course and is beyond the reach of the average club, but it would certainly make for interesting racing. It would be no good being super fast round the smooth high grip parts of the course if you can't negotiate the 45degree sand pile. That's where the clod buster catches up with the CAT... :)

 

 

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On 7/11/2020 at 1:37 AM, davidwj95 said:

....I've no interest in repeatedly jumping one 20' in the air off a skateboard ramp.

OK, there's another use for modern truggies. I stand corrected.

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On 7/9/2020 at 1:10 AM, mtbkym01 said:

Looks very much like the Kyosho MP10T. Hideous 

 

D7839E5C-B1BB-4B01-AD88-BDC3A1573C88.jpeg

looks like Iron Man

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3 hours ago, MadInventor said:

Totally agree with the comments about the track. A good off road course would include several surfaces. That's the definition of off road. Off road is not a completely uniform surface with slopes. That's on road racing in Wales. Multiple surfaces would level the playing field a lot where a car is dialled in for a particular surface. How much more interesting it would be to have a track that included  tarmac, sand, mud, and gravel. And part of it with a surface rough enough to need a decent amount of ground clearance to get over. Perhaps instead of high jumps perhaps a steep slope to have a to get up. This would obviously require a custom build course and is beyond the reach of the average club, but it would certainly make for interesting racing. It would be no good being super fast round the smooth high grip parts of the course if you can't negotiate the 45degree sand pile. That's where the clod buster catches up with the CAT... :)

 

 

This sounds like a great idea for an open class just to see what will come out on top. Divide it into 2 and 4wd and maybe 1/10 and 1/8 scale. Let's see a DB-01 v.s a Stampede 4x4 v.s a Losi Rock Rey. This see to me to be very similar to r/c ultra-4 racing which had a brief moment in the sun in the US: High-speed dirt and jumps mixed with technical crawling. 

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On 7/9/2020 at 4:10 AM, mtbkym01 said:

Looks very much like the Kyosho MP10T. Hideous 

 

D7839E5C-B1BB-4B01-AD88-BDC3A1573C88.jpeg

Am I the only one who wishes that true monster trucks (I.E T-Maxx, TNX, Savage, Losi LST) were still around? While truggies are awesome for bashing and great on a track, they just are too good. 

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Those were the days.

RC10T.png

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Whilst i agree with a lot of the above about tracks, i think the main culprit is indoor offroad racing, which i accept is massively convenient and low cost and therefore much easier for most clubs. On outdoor tracks a supposedly consistent surface like astro is plenty tricky to drive if there's enough topography. The track at Robin Hood Raceway i go to for tamiya run what ya brung days is really bumpy with lots of gradient and only two really steep tricky jumps that have to be driven slowly in a vintage buggy. If they just put unprepared grass bypasses to these you would have a great track without massive jumps. 

As for realism, feels like it's one of the regulators to me, qnd that's always poacher turned gane keeper becauae all the rule makers are racers too. Witness the inexorable blobification and homogenisation of the nascent frontie touring car class by zoo racing and a couple of others making blatantly non-scale shells because the rules aren't strict enough, and allowing mid-motor layouts instead of front motor only, killing the distinctiveness. And that has taken all of 9 months to collapse. 

I think kyosho might hve hit on a bit of a sweet spot for performance vs reakism with these rampahe outlaw. It looks grear, isn't complex, and it probably something tamiya could mostly parts bin using cc01 and DT03 parts. 

34361t2b-outlaw-rampage-truck-2wd-1-10-r

34361t1b-k.jpg

If someone regulated wheelbase, roof height, wheels under the body you would have the basis of a cool race class. 

 

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15 hours ago, Bash said:

Am I the only one who wishes that true monster trucks (I.E T-Maxx, TNX, Savage, Losi LST) were still around? While truggies are awesome for bashing and great on a track, they just are too good. 

I would love for them to return to the forefront.  Remember when this was an actual racing class with Tamiya TNX at the front?  I think the Revo killed the class, was kind of the begining of 1/8 scall truggy.  

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56 minutes ago, GTodd said:

I would love for them to return to the forefront.  Remember when this was an actual racing class with Tamiya TNX at the front?  I think the Revo killed the class, was kind of the begining of 1/8 scall truggy.  

Yes and no. While a Revo is longer, wider, and lower than a TNX or a Savage and paved the way for truggies, it's still smaller than a modern 1/8 truggy and had a truck body. The Losi Muggy and the Hot Bodies GT2X are the first of what I would consider a truggy. 

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18 minutes ago, Bash said:

Yes and no. While a Revo is longer, wider, and lower than a TNX or a Savage and paved the way for truggies, it's still smaller than a modern 1/8 truggy and had a truck body. The Losi Muggy and the Hot Bodies GT2X are the first of what I would consider a truggy. 

Yep exactly, I made the jump too in 2005 to a revo.  But they still looked like trucks.  And you are right the revo wasn't quite 1/8.  Heck my 80XT looks like a truck at least. 

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21 hours ago, MadInventor said:

Totally agree with the comments about the track. A good off road course would include several surfaces. That's the definition of off road. Off road is not a completely uniform surface with slopes. That's on road racing in Wales. Multiple surfaces would level the playing field a lot where a car is dialled in for a particular surface. How much more interesting it would be to have a track that included  tarmac, sand, mud, and gravel. And part of it with a surface rough enough to need a decent amount of ground clearance to get over. Perhaps instead of high jumps perhaps a steep slope to have a to get up. This would obviously require a custom build course and is beyond the reach of the average club, but it would certainly make for interesting racing. It would be no good being super fast round the smooth high grip parts of the course if you can't negotiate the 45degree sand pile. That's where the clod buster catches up with the CAT... :)

 

 

You’d love micro racing.  Carpet, wooden floor, vinyl... it’s great

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11 hours ago, Bash said:

Yes and no. While a Revo is longer, wider, and lower than a TNX or a Savage and paved the way for truggies, it's still smaller than a modern 1/8 truggy and had a truck body. The Losi Muggy and the Hot Bodies GT2X are the first of what I would consider a truggy. 

XTM Mammoth and HPI Hellfire were the first real truggies that I can remember (dedicated long arm buggy chassis), and Mugen had an MBX with wheel spacers. Paul Coleman was having a lot of success with OFNA Dominators, and Monster Pirates before that. A lot of us were experimenting with buggy conversions to run in Monster Truck, because the T-Maxx and Savage were clumsy and oafish, and honestly, fragile. It was really an interesting time to be racing, because the class evolved very organically, and there were some very cool cars. More than a few twin engine nitro monsters, solid axle nitro monsters, and many more quality manufacturers to choose from.

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Edit: the Muggy was one of the neatest of all. Really tough suspension and big gnarly diffs and enormous shocks from the LST on a low CG chassis, with great stock tires and a decent looking body. The LST remained a favorite of mine until production ceased, and I had always kept them in stock. One of the few big bashers I've really liked to drive.

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I've been following this thread since the start but haven't had time to sit down and post anything.  And @ThunderDragonCy has hit the nail right between the eyes with the Frontie class.  It was intended to be a scale-accurate FWD class to pull people away from jelly-mould touring cars and bring some realism back to racing.  I figured this was the class for me, so I bought a used T4F 2019, fitted my Tamiya Integra body and took myself along to the track.

I was surprised to read that the BRCA rules insist on a scale-accurate body with a scale-repro FWD touring paint job, but more surprised to see that the list of scale approved bodies doesn't include any classic Tamiya designs - in fact none of the approved bodies are "genuine" scale reproductions, most are "similar but not exact" clones and some don't really look like genuine cars at all.  They're not as blobby as the current touring blobs but they're nowhere near as fab-looking as the vintage Tamiya stuff.  That said, they are easily available and cheaper than vintage Tamiya bodies or the good-but-poorly-stocked L&L repros.  And they clearly offer an advantage - I was talking to a Frontie racer at the weekend who was showing me his collection of modern Frontie bodies and telling me which to use in which conditions.  He did promise to bring along his Tamiya Integra body to the next club weekend so we could run our side-by-side, but we'll probably both run our modern bodies before the day is over to get our best FTDs and try to claim some points in the club championship.

Which, really, is the problem.

F1 has tried for as long as I've been watching to turn the formula into a watchable sport, but continuously bangs up against the ingenuity of designers, who do everything they can to gain that competitive advantage.  That's an arms race that led to blown diffusers, swivelling jacks, and ultimately, one of the worst examples of the law of unintended consequences - those hideous proboscis noses that (combined with sky-high Sky prices) turned some people off the sport forever.

There is a certain truth that there is beauty in any form that perfectly fulfils its function, but when the function involves arbitrary rules (e.g. maximum wing width) or safety rules (lowest point forward of the wheels) you end up with some very strange-looking designs.  Left to evolve on its own, an F1 form that follows function may well have remained with the high-level noses pioneered by Benetton back in the 90s, or might have gone somewhere completely different by now.

This is why Iconic RC has gone to great efforts to restrict body usage for the Iconic Cup vintage touring class.  For the last two years, any body must come from a list of pre-approved shells.  There was a big hoo-har a couple of years ago when the Pikes Peak Suzuki Swift body was released, because it had a big airdam nose and a huuuge wing that gave a massive advantage over other true scale bodies.  But because it was a genuine scale body (i.e. a repro of an actual racing car that actually exists) it was insisted that it should be legal.  However (IMO) it looks awful and doesn't look right on a grid composed of vintage touring car bodies.  So it has now been outlawed for all touring classes (I'm not sure if it's still allowed in GT or superstock).

The easiest way to make a scale-realistic truck or buggy class would be to make a one-make class.  The Outlaw might be a nice starting point.  But it's not cheap, and it's not a cheap way to get people into racing.  And maybe Kyosho will release other bodies on the same platform, some of which might give an advantage over others, and before you know it the grid is chasing FTD by swapping on whatever body works best for any given track or weather condition.

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