58100 Top Force rebuild -> now DF01/DB01 Frankenstein build

[DarkSonic 212]

It's my first thread here in the forum, so I hope I can contribute something to this community. 
2 weeks ago I purchased a used 58100 Top Force. On the pictures the car seems used, but could be easy rescued as a shelf queen. Since I was a kid, I always wanted a Top Force.
But when the car was unboxed and inspected It seemed this wasn't a good deal.

 

 

So, after the first shock the car was disassembled and the parts were cleaned in the sonic cleaner.

The car must had a hard life. The front gearbox covers were red, all ball connectors have a lot of play, screws were missing, the chassisplates are yellowed, rear gearbox was cracked, front gears are damaged etc.
Only to list a few. 

The plan to build it as a shelf queen is now obsolete. At the moment I think the best way will be to build it as a modified runner. If I would restore it to new, not much original parts will be left.

The first parts were ordered when the car was on it's way to me.

At this stage I thought these were the most parts I need 

The black front gearboxhousing will be used for my TA02 Racing Special replica as for a runner the black ones are to hard to get.
I will use the silver gearboxes for the runner rebuild. For the FRP Plates I will check if I can produce these out of carbon on the CNC Mill.I also will test if the original Ball Diff aluminium parts could be lighten a few grams 
 

Let me know what you think about my thoughts? I'm open-minded for your suggestions.
 

[Finnsllc 917]

looks like a great runner. I really love my TF

[DarkSonic 212]

Was a bit creative this week.

Have transferred the original TF FRP parts in the CAD. 
The next step is to alter the design a bit with the inspiration of the Evo etc. The rear damper stay will receive a provision to strengthen the weak 2 screw points.
If it's possible I will put the DXF of the original an modified parts in the forum, so everyone can use it as a base to modify.

[DarkSonic 212]

Sadly time is at a premium at the moment. With a 4 month old baby there is not much free time.
So the TF involves slowly.

Was thinking a bit how the diff halfes could be improved in weight especially since the TF Evo parts are hard to find.

 

And some time later...

 

 

As you can see, I only saved 3,3 gr. At first I was a bit disappointed, but for only 40 min of work the result was ok.
I was a bit conservative with the wall thickness and if I would use a mill to bring down the material around the hex there would be some grams lost.
I also think the TF EVO Parts are of another alloy.

Some days forward I digitised the EVO damper stays I found in the forum.

Next week I will produce a first batch of parts out of FRP to test the fitment.
At the moment I still waiting for the 3mm mill.

[TurnipJF 9192]

Most impressive so far!

[rich_f 233]

The standard diff parts are made from 'pot metal' or some sort of zinc alloy, rather than aluminium as you state.

Interesting idea to reduce their weight though, and they look so much better having been machined compared to the dull, cast finish of the originals. Almost a shame they will be hidden away!

[DarkSonic 212]

On 8/12/2020 at 4:38 PM, TurnipJF said:

Most impressive so far!

Thank you! It's also a pleasure to give something back to the Community.

On 8/12/2020 at 10:55 PM, rich_f said:

The standard diff parts are made from 'pot metal' or some sort of zinc alloy, rather than aluminium as you state.

Interesting idea to reduce their weight though, and they look so much better having been machined compared to the dull, cast finish of the originals. Almost a shame they will be hidden away!

Definitly much better for the look.

I have assembled the diffs with only this part lightened for now. But with my Ta-02RS replica I will pick that project again. The main problem to produce new diff parts is the toothing of the diff joint. 

 

The 3mm cutter arrived today, so after work I fired up the CNC.

Parts fit really well. Only the rear damper mount need minor adjustment.

After assembly of the whole car with no hassle, i will upload the all files to the Forum.

Next steps are to order the Lipo saddle pack from Hobbyking and design a bracket.

Other step is to check the control arms how these can easy and cheap be produced in one piece.

[DarkSonic 212]

After my parental leave and holidays, I went back to my TF project.

At first I fired up the CAD and designed some new wishbones. I started with the rear ones, because of another idea, where I might need the data.
Here is the first result with my old Makerbot printer. Not the best finish, but ok for testing. In the weight department I lost 9 gram. Stability seem better, but will test it with new parts in better quality and print orientation.

As anybody know, the DF-01 lags the needed adjustability at the rear for anti squat or toe. I missed it at my Manta Ray and the TA-02 Chassis I owned, so for this build I searched for a solution.
When I was randomly searching at the shop of Modellbau Seidel, I found the suspension mounts of the TRF419/420. After some research, the system seems perfect for my needs. A lot of adjustability and different mounts are available. With the next order I added a 54881 adjustable A mount for testing.
After some measuring here is the result ( was good to keep the prototype chassis and the old gearbox  ).

The front mount was the easier one. At the rear I'm not sure how to mount it. I can extend the chassis or use existing mounting points. 
Extending the chassis will be much neater. Using existing points made it possible for other users to modify their TF (if anybody, except for me, need this mod ) I think I have to design both to choose the right one.

Let me know, if you have any suggestions and your opinion.

[GTodd 1347]

8 hours ago, DarkSonic said:

After my parental leave and holidays, I went back to my TF project.

At first I fired up the CAD and designed some new wishbones. I started with the rear ones, because of another idea, where I might need the data.
Here is the first result with my old Makerbot printer. Not the best finish, but ok for testing. In the weight department I lost 9 gram. Stability seem better, but will test it with new parts in better quality and print orientation.

As anybody know, the DF-01 lags the needed adjustability at the rear for anti squat or toe. I missed it at my Manta Ray and the TA-02 Chassis I owned, so for this build I searched for a solution.
When I was randomly searching at the shop of Modellbau Seidel, I found the suspension mounts of the TRF419/420. After some research, the system seems perfect for my needs. A lot of adjustability and different mounts are available. With the next order I added a 54881 adjustable A mount for testing.
After some measuring here is the result ( was good to keep the prototype chassis and the old gearbox  ).

The front mount was the easier one. At the rear I'm not sure how to mount it. I can extend the chassis or use existing mounting points. 
Extending the chassis will be much neater. Using existing points made it possible for other users to modify their TF (if anybody, except for me, need this mod ) I think I have to design both to choose the right one.

Let me know, if you have any suggestions and your opinion.

Great minds think alike!!! I just ordered DB01 arms for my rebuild as I'm attempting to do the same thing!

[Collin 1956]

May I ask which CNC mill type/model you use? I am dreaming about one since long time. 

[DarkSonic 212]

23 hours ago, GTodd said:

Great minds think alike!!! I just ordered DB01 arms for my rebuild as I'm attempting to do the same thing!

So I'm not alone  
If I can keep the TF arms I would be happy, but I think I have to design a mix of TF and DB01. The DB01 arms will probably be to long for the TF suspension parts.

 

23 hours ago, Collin said:

May I ask which CNC mill type/model you use? I am dreaming about one since long time. 

I use the mill here at work. It's a VHF Premium. So more a professional machine and a bit to expensive and to big for milling at home.
https://www.vhf.de/en/products/industry-sign-making/cnc-milling-machines/premium/

 

[Collin 1956]

38 minutes ago, DarkSonic said:

I use the mill here at work. It's a VHF Premium. So more a professional machine and a bit to expensive and to big for milling at home.
https://www.vhf.de/en/products/industry-sign-making/cnc-milling-machines/premium/

Thanks for the link. Will probably never be able to afford something in this quality range : (

[DarkSonic 212]

3 hours ago, Collin said:

Thanks for the link. Will probably never be able to afford something in this quality range : (

I realy like this mill and I'm happy that i can use it after work. 

There are a lot of cheaper ones out there. This one accept workpieces (sheets) of 1meter x 1 meter. Thats a lot more than you need at home.

[Collin 1956]

Definitly best if company allows to use infrastructure. A smaller one would do it, deffo. But at least one chassis size : )

[DarkSonic 212]

Some progress on the Top Force.

Have ordered the DB01 rear and front wishbone.

 

As you can see, the DB01 and the DF01 wishbones have identical dimensions. The different dimensions at the gearbox doesn't matter. With the conversion of the rear attachment points I need the smaller width.

 

The TF has the Dampers in the back so there will be no attachment points at the DB01 wishbones. After some investigations ( i looked at my Zahhak/DN01 😁) I found out the DB02 and DN01 has the same wishbones except they have attachmentpoints in the front and the back.

With the new wishbones you can use the old DF01 or the new DB02 knuckle. I think I use the new one ,but have to test the fitment of the TF driveshafts

In the front things look a bit different. The DB01 wishbone is much longer, but I don't know if the overall length is the same as with the original suspension. 

 

Here I don't know what I want. Stay with the oldschool suspension or switch over to the new one of the DB01.

I don't know if I destroy the "spirit" of the original TF

What do you think?

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7877]

I say go for it. I have done the same transplant on my Thunder Dragon, and it's fantastic. Definitely not a trad feel any more, but it also does not feel anything like as capable as my DB01 either. It just works nicely.

The big plus for the Top Force in doing the fronts is that you will add caster with the DB01 front blocks. This really improves the steering. 

[Honza 936]

On 8/14/2020 at 8:08 PM, DarkSonic said:

The main problem to produce new diff parts is the toothing of the diff joint. 

Maybe diff joints for TT01 (53790 or 9804237) would make it easier?

[DarkSonic 212]

Had some time to think about the options and came to the conclusion to go full restomod. Will use as much of new suspension components as possible.
So the next step is to produce a new FRP Chassis for testfitting and to order some parts for the suspension.

On 11/5/2020 at 8:59 PM, Honza said:

Maybe diff joints for TT01 (53790 or 9804237) would make it easier?

Oh, this could be an option. The flats can be produced much easier. Thank you.

[GTodd 1347]

Watching enthusiastically! I started a build thread for mine a few weeks ago,.stalled waiting for my arms and hubs to show up.

[DarkSonic 212]

Time goes by.
So last week I had some spare time to mill out the reworked lower chassis plate. 
Here yo can see my mock-up gearbox and the 2 mounts for the suspension. At the back I also constructed a stiffening for the chassis plate. As the chassis is only mounted on 2 points on the underside, I felt the now longer back need some more stiffness.
 

 

The first mounting of the DB01 parts. 

It's really interesting to see, how similar are the suspensions of the DF01 and the DB01. Later I will change the tunbuckles , but at the moment the old ones  do their job.
When I receive my ball bearings I will test fit the original TF universal shafts. This will keep the costs down and I have a new set of these 
I also want to keep the conversion more attractive for others to do the same.

For the conversion we have to cut down the old suspension points at the gear case.

So I fired up the CAD and constructed this...

 

With this jig, I can mill down the suspension points and a small portion of the gear case cover ( for clearing the suspension mounts).  I use a milling machine, but you also could use a dremel or something.
Next will be some test fitting, and measuring of the damper and turnbuckle length.

I also changed the thread title, as this is no longer a restoration. After the conversion there are only some screws, bushings etc. left of the old Top Force, all other parts are new or have changed from the original design.

[Collin 1956]

How much I appreciate, getting up in the moring having a cup of black coffee whilest the 3D printer is doing my job and watching others doing the same tinkerjobs.

[DarkSonic 212]

Slow progress.
At first I had no time to select and order parts. Now I had some time, but parts are hard to come by. Had to wait 3 weeks till the D-Parts from the DB01 were available.

Had modified the front wishbones a bit, so they can be mounted on the gear case. Nothing fancy. It can be done with a file, but I opted for the mill.

I really like how it looks and fit. 

 

I also test fitted the TF universal shafts, but these are to long in the back and to short in the front.
After test fitting and measuring the driveshafts from my DN01 ( which have the same length as the DB01 in the back) I can say the DB01 shafts will fit really good. So i opted for a set of TRF501X CVD (mainly because these are available at Seidel).
As I said, finding the right parts is one thing, but getting these is complicated. 

Hope I can order all the missing parts next week (and all are still available)

But in the meantime I nearly have all parts for my TA02 Racing Special replica, so eventually start this first 

[DarkSonic 212]

Bringing the thread back from a long break.
In the meantime I received most of the missing parts.

As you know I've ordered the TRF501X CVD. After assembly an test fitting the CVD I ran into some problems. In the front the CVD were about 5mm to long.
The perfekt length isn't available so what to do. At first I thought about shortening the CVD and friction weld the two parts together, but this would be really complicated.
So the second option wins. Let's construct a lower diff cover with wider mounting points for the lower suspension arms 

 

Here the new diffcover printed out of carbon fiber filament

 

 

 

Looks a bit rough, but I only need a functional prototype to test everything. Later I print the parts at shapeways etc.

As you can see the wider mounting points also needed a ne U-shape shaft. 

In the back the CVD's fit perfect. No binding or anything in the desired travel range of the suspension.

Here with the old case, so no worries about the broken tab.

 

The last days the chassis saw some progress, so I will update this thread in the next days. I also wait for the aluminium parts from Bulgaria 

[Chris_Ward 15]

Nice work. I like the solution for the front end. I've got the DB01 arms on mine and I've gone the route of 74mm Losi CVDs to make it fit, still a work in progress though! I cut the gearbox casing on mine rather than the arms, and the next problem I have is the steering to wishbone interference, do you have this on yours?

 

[DarkSonic 212]

Thank you. That's also a good solution with the Losi CVD's! 
After I saw your post/picture I had to check my clearance. I've never checked this before  It always seemed enough.

Here you can see the clearance with the old Top Force adjusters.
They reinforced ones I normally use, give some more clearance. But, as you can see, I also have to shorten the U-shaft. After that everything seems fine.

I think you cut the mounting tab on the gearbox in the front? So your suspension arm moves backwards