Egress/Avante analysis

[Saito2 6686]

The topic of the Avante or the Egress and their effectiveness as off-road racers in their era comes up from time to time. Add to that their recurrence in the re-release market bringing in new potential owners made me think of combining a lot of the worthwhile knowledge about the distinctive quirks that may have hampered their abilities as top-of-the-line racers in their time. 

This is mildly painful for me, as the Egress was always this dream buggy of mine. In my youth, I always figured that it had fixed all the issues the Avante had through the use of essentially "bolt-on" parts as rectifications. Avante overweight? A graphite chassis, titanium screws and lightweight wheels help there. Nervous/twitchy handling/steering? Longer wheelbase, skinnier front tires and a ball raced steering system helps that. etc. etc. When Jamie Booth wheeled an Egress and Tamiya/TRF started making major changes, I got the gist that the issues that plague the Egress were not easily fixed with bolt-ons. In fact, there are deeper things in the car's core design that are, well, somewhat awry.

At the front, the Avante was saddled with less suspension travel and a sloppy steering mechanism than most competitors. The Egress has longer, more upright shocks and a nice ball raced steering system. Problem solved? Not quite. In an interview with Jamie Booth, the original car's lack of caster was an issue. To that end, Tamiya made new inner arm mounts (that mounted to to old ones) that angled the rear of the arms downward. Thanks to confirmation from @Avante2001R that this new front suspension also reduced scrub radius. The scrub radius on the stock Egress is pretty bad. This leads to forces constantly working on the toe settings of the car as it accelerates and brakes. There is still slop in the steering which of course makes handling/steering worse thanks to the huge scrub radius. Then there's the lack of ackerman angle. Both front wheel turn/travel the same distance. All of this is bad news in the handling/steering department at the level the Egress was meant to compete. 

All of this came about when I began to look at reinforcing the suspension mounting points on my runner Egress. The mounts are molded into the gearbox which is bad enough, but add to that, Tamiya's poor spares support for the model and finding replacements let alone having to tear down a gearbox after a crash becomes an issue. My thoughts led me to the Booth Egress in which the front and rear lower arm mounts were tied together and then I considered replicating the whole affair...but ran into a possible snag. I questioned at one point how well the new- style outdrives (which only engage at the outer edge of the diff) would be secured with really nothing more than a sponge rubber bush in the drive cup holding them in. A forum member, whose name unfortunately escapes me at the moment clued me in. The Egress/Avante cars are unique in the fact the front arm inner pivot points are right in line with the diff outdrives aiding in keeping all the parts together. The Booth/TRF Egress moves these pivot points out of line with the outdrives. Since the old style ball diffs from back then use more typical splined inner shafts with a cross pin, this wasn't an issue. I fear attempting the same suspension tricks with the new style outdrives as it may lead to the outdrives being pushed/falling out since they lack any real internal engagement and are now subjected to more forces, being moved out of line with the inner arm mounts. 

There's also the rear suspension to consider. I never though it was much of a detriment as it was compliant and had ample travel. Trailing arm rear suspensions weren't totally out of vogue at the time back then. A&L still made trailing arm conversions and the then-current Losi JR-X2 used a 5-link system similar to the Avante/Egress 3-link design. Yet the system was replaced in the Booth Egress as well. I don't own a JR-X2 but I know Gil Losi Jr is a highly intelligent designer so I imagine he had his reasons for going with the more complex 5-link. I question whether the Egress's 3-link may induce dynamic rear toe changes throughout its travel arch that the 5-link possibly avoids(?) I'm not sure but Tamiya ditched it in the Egress test mule for some reason. The Avante boasted a more adjustable rear 3-link that the Egress eliminated for durability and simplicity reasons. Plus, I imagine it wasn't quite as adjustable as initially conceived as most changes simply wound up tweaking the wheelbase more than anything.

I still love the Egress and as a kid I imagined it capable of standing up to the Lasers, Pro Cats and Yokes of the time but in depth study has revealed that the core design inherited from the Avante led to failings that keep it from being among the best. Its not to say a good driver can't make one perform but that same driver would simply do better with a car designed better from the outset. Perhaps if Tamiya had team drivers' inputs as the Avante was being created things would have been different. It certainly led to changes to the Egress when Jamie Booth ran it. I'd like to thanks members such as @94eg! and @kontemax and any others I missed that are far more knowledgeable than I who shared some of this insight into the inner workings of the Egress. Any further inputs and additions to the topic appreciated.

[moffman 5752]

That's a good personal insight into the avante chassis from a racing point of view loads of different issues that sadly got in the way of a potentially brilliant buggy? And like you I just loved the avante/egress when they both original appeared! the egress originally appeared when I had to join the real world of family and mortgages but I always remember (because I've always had subscriptions to rc magazines) looking at it and thinking that's a definite winner but because I wasn't really into rc for them years I just assumed it was a good successor to the avante which I personally thought was a very capable Thursday night school hall club racer? But then I did race on occasions with the likes of rc10s, cats hotshots etc a Porsche 959 so that was the level of racing in my local club (but it was brilliant pure fun!) 

[Saito2 6686]

When I was younger, my only real contact with the Avante/Egress was through magazine reviews. The Avante reviews often centered around just how "amazingly adjustable" the Avante was (a point I consider debatable, at least as far as usefulness goes). Reviewers just seemed more blown away by the change from cars like the Hot Shot/Thundershot to the Avante. Much of the Egress reviews focused on the improvements it offered to fix the Avante's shortcomings. Still, there was a thread that ran through all those reviews about both cars' nervous steering/handling. Some reviewers, who I respected, like RCCA's Bill O'Brien were actually dancing around the buggies' issues noting the slop in the steering and the length of the servo rod etc. I think, given time and further analysis, they would have seized upon the answers that we forum members have all these years later. There's a lot of complexity to designing a competitive RC buggy and many writers just wrote puff pieces rather than critical or analytical ones. I'm sure the magazines considered "how their bread was buttered" too. I found Mr.O'Brien to be a more discerning reviewer. His monthly column did focus on practical repairs for a myriad of manufacturers' cars.

Whether its effective or not, I love the rest of the car. I'm a shaft drive fan and the Egress's drivetrain is pretty stout. I like all the options with the center ball diff, one-way or locked spur plus front/rear gear or ball diffs. Tamiya stepped up the game with better, fiber reinforced plastics in areas like the gearbox, something its Top Force replacement could badly use. They just didn't give the front any kick-up, ackerman or much caster. Considering the earlier 4wd buggies had many of these features, I'd love to know why the Avante/Egress didn't. Its not like Tamiya was ignorant to them by this point.

Of course, none of this matters. Its just an autopsy long after the fact which would have even less meaning if it weren't for Tamiya's re-release program. The fact is the buggies are beautiful, almost works of art. They capture a unique era in Tamiya history. The Avante/Egress probably represent Tamiya's best efforts in competition while still employing their distinct take on design. Better performer or not, the Top Force is the beginning of a more homogenized design with the rest of the industry. Long live the Avante/Egress. 

[Rb4276 803]

So now the question is should i get an avante black even though i have an egress i love. I would def drive it, no shelf queens ever for me.  i had one as kid and the front end broke a few times. I bought it through rc car action for $99 with out the technigold. I ran it with a kyosho 240s or technipower motor.  I remember going to mrc/tamiya near my house in edison, new jersey and they gave me the parts for free after my mom complained to them When it broke so easily the 2nd time lol. I feel after reading all these great inputs im setting myself for disappointment yet again ha. 

[Saito2 6686]

@Rb4276 Love the Egress? Sure, go for an Avante! The issues I wrote about are what kept the car out of the winners circle. Its still a beautiful piece to see in motion. For usual use, I don't see any issue. Now if it was going to see hard race action on a track with other cars with crashes/accidents and all? Maybe not. The Egress is tougher in that respect. Except for retro racing, all my findings (others feel free to add to) are but a mere history lesson which doesn't really mean much for the car's current day usage. 

[426Purplefish 15]

5 hours ago, Saito2 said:

@Rb4276 Love the Egress? Sure, go for an Avante! The issues I wrote about are what kept the car out of the winners circle. Its still a beautiful piece to see in motion. For usual use, I don't see any issue. Now if it was going to see hard race action on a track with other cars with crashes/accidents and all? Maybe not. The Egress is tougher in that respect. Except for retro racing, all my findings (others feel free to add to) are but a mere history lesson which doesn't really mean much for the car's current day usage. 

I for one appreciate the general musings and historical insights.  I have come to love both of these buggies but know little about them.  I feel fortunate to have grabbed one of the last egresses for rcmart.  That and a BS are in the lineup ...whenever I find the time to build them😏