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Clodbusterfan

Motors for my Super Clod Buster?

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What are some different motors I can use in my Super Clod Buster? I know there are some different kinds of motors for a Clod. Any help would be great!

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What do you want to use it for?

What batteries do you want to use?

What ESC do you have?

How much are you willing to spend?

Do you want to go brushed or brushless?

The problem with the Clod is that one of the motors must run backwards, so you can't use any motor that has fixed advanced timing (unless you open the motor and rotate the end bell).  Unfortunately that excludes the majority of tuned motors.  Often, understanding if a motor is advance timed or not is tricky, especially when ordering online from discount suppliers who care more about shipping bulk product out of the door than about providing a half-decent description (or even a hi-res photo of the box fercrynowloud).  You can use motors with adjustable timing provided you time both to 0 degrees, or you can run advance at both ends provided the motor has enough adjustment to allow negative timing.

One would argue the cheapest solution is to start with the fabtastic Hobbywing 880 ESC, which is an awesomely-priced dual motor brushed ESC that can handle up to 4S LiPo power.  Run 2x 12T motors on 2S, 2x 18T motors on 3S or 2x 24T motors on 4S.

As for motors - you can run silvercans on 3S.  The ubiquitous silvercan 540 is actually rated to 12V, so it can take 3S punishment, and it has no advanced timing, so it runs well in both ends of the truck.

Traxxas also make the Titan 550 in reverse timed configuration.  So you'd need one standard Titan 550, and one Titan 550 Reverse.  These kick out a lot more punch than a silvercan but in my experience they need more voltage to get there.  Having experimented with my setup, on 3S power the silvercan is actually the better motor.  If you want to run the Titans then you'll need 4S power.  According to the specs, the Hobbywing 880 should handle that, but I've not tried - the 550s draw more current than a 540 and might overload the 880 on 4S.

My advice is to steer clear of the Traxxas EVX-2 ESC - I've had a couple of these and not had good results.  My first was mis-sold as LiPo-safe when it wasn't, so I had to run it with LiPo alarms.  Which was OK, except when the alarms went off they somehow interfered with the radio and caused the rig to go completely out of control, flipping over and tearing itself to pieces and thankfully missing my neighbour's car by inches.  My second has the world's most sensitive LiPo cutoff (which isn't adjustable).  I can sometimes get 2 minutes of very careful running before it cuts power.  Others have reported similar issues - it seems some EVX-2s were shipped this way.  (It might also be that the 550s draw more current than my packs can handle, so they temporarily go under-volt when accelerating)

If you want to go brushless then maybe others can help, I have yet to try brushless power in a MoA truck :)

This thread is very old now but still has some useful info:

https://www.clodtalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=26702

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Just bashing.  I just want to use a 6 cell 5000mAh. I have a hobbywing 860 ESC. I want to stay brushed. Willing to spend $100. But probably only need 2 motors and they have to have no timing.

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I can't see a motor in the link but in your PM you mentioned Sport Tuned motors.

There still seems to be some question about the Sport Tuned motor and advanced timing, so you may find that one motor doesn't run as well as the other.  General problems with running a motor against its advanced timing is lower torque, lower max RPM and shorter brush life.  As the Sport Tuned is not rebuildable, this means throwing the can away when the brushes are done.  That said, lots of people do seem to run Sport Tuned motors in the Clod with no issues.

This thread is worth a read  (even if it is somewhat inconclusive)

 

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2 hours ago, Clodbusterfan said:

Yep, definitely would give it a bit of a boost.

You might also look at the Reedy Radon brushed motors. Those you can reverse the timing on. They have a 19t, 17t and a 15t.

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3 hours ago, Clodbusterfan said:

How do you reverse the timing on a motor?

 

Also, this video at 16:00 is what you are looking for, he specifically talks about the Clodbuster and reversing the motor:

 

 

 

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This Weekend i'll probably try the Tamiya GT-Tuned Motors. I think they will be timeable.

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8 hours ago, Clodbusterfan said:

I think I want 2 of the Reedy Radon 2 motors since they have adjustable timing. Like you said Tamiya_1971. 

https://www.associatedelectrics.com/reedy/parts/details/27427-ASC27427-reedy_radon_2_19t_3-slot_3200kv_brushed_motor/

When I eventually update mine, those 19t are the ones I'm going with.

 

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A guy at hobbytown usa told me you can use any motor for your rear motor on a Super Clod as long as you hook it up backwards. Is this true?

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What would the timing be set at for a Super Clod front and back with the Reedy Radon? Would they both be set to 0? And then hook up the rear motor backwards?

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What would the timing be set at for a Super Clod front and back with the Reedy Radon? Would they both be set to 0? You want 0 timed motors right? Just like these motors have zero timing:

https://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-RS540-Sport-Tuned-Motor/dp/B00061HB0K/ref=sr_1_1?crid=27B8VU3716LIO&dchild=1&keywords=tamiya+sport+tuned+motor&qid=1596218536&sprefix=tamiya+sport+tuned%2Caps%2C540&sr=8-1

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You can adjust the timing a bit to get a little more rpm or a little less. I would personally just leave them set at zero. I can't imagine the small amount of rpm is going to be noticeable on a clod.

 

 

 

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So you don't think the 19T Reedy motor will be much faster than the Sport tuned motor? With the Clod don't the motors need to be set at 0 timing. That's mainly what I need to know do the Reedy motors need to be set to 0 timing.

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I’ve never had a Sport Tuned. I know if I was picking between a Radon and a closed can Sport Tuned, I would go with a Radon. That’s just me. Brushes and Springs can be replaced on the Radon. As long as both motors are set to the same timing it’ll be fine. Nothing needs to be set to a specific timing. The timing settings depend on if you want to squeeze a few more rpm’s out of it. Don’t overthink it 😃

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The Hobbyking clerk was mostly wrong. If both motors have 0 timing then sure they'll work fine. But if the timing is nonzero (which is often the case for fancier motors) then they have to be matched, but opposite (like 5 and -5). I don't run a clod so I can't offer much beyond the general theory.

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I'll try to clear up a few things as it's not always well explained and might be leading to some confusion:

Zero timing / 0 timing: A standard silvercan and many other generic electric motors have this.  It doesn't matter what in means technically but in practice it means the motor is designed to run well in both directions and provide an even spread of torque across its RPM range.  You can consider this the "standard" way to build an electric motor and it's what Tamiya had in mind when they designed the Clod with its reversible motor-on-axle configuration.  Motors with adjustable timing can usually be set to zero timing, or to non-zero timing, depending on how to want to use the motor.

Advanced timing: As above, we don't need to worry about what this means technically but in practice, it means the motor will rev a little faster at a cost of a bit less torque.  However, timing will only be advanced in one direction of travel; that means if you run the motor backwards, the timing is retarded.  The motor will run slower and less efficiently, and it is suspected that the motor won't last as long either (I don't have any solid info on that last statement).

Advanced timing is very easy to manufacture into a motor - so it's a very cheap way for a manufacturer to sell a motor that makes more RPM.  Therefore, a lot of cheap hot motors are just basic motors with advanced timing.  Fine for tourers and buggies that typically run their motors the same way, but not so good for our motor-on-axle trucks that need to run one gearbox in reverse.

The Sport Tuned motor seems to fall into that category (there has been some dispute, see the thread I linked above).  This means it's not suitable for use in a Clod.  Disclaimer: there's anecdotal evidence of people running Sport Tuned motors in Clods with no issues.  Summary: it will probably work, but there might be a better way to get better performance and reliability.

Fixed Timing: This is where the timing is set in the factory and can't be changed.  Look at the picture of the Sport Tuned motor - the end bell (the back flat part where the wires come out) is fixed into the can and can't be rotated or removed.  Standard silvercans with zero timing are fixed motors - you can't change the timing.  The Sport Tuned is also fixed timing - you can't change it.  Generally, motors with fixed timing will be non-rebuildable - that means if the motor fails, you throw it away.

Adjustable timing: This is where the timing can be adjusted by rotating the end bell.  Look at the video posted above - on the title image, the end bell (black bit) can be rotated in the can (the white bit).  There are markings on the can denoting the timing setting, in degrees.  You see that 0 is in the middle, and there are markings up to 36 degrees in either direction.  This means, this particular motor allows you to advance the timing for either direction of rotation - so you could, for example, run 12 degrees of advance in a regular touring car, or you could rotate it the other way and have 12 degrees of advance in a reverse-direction transmission.

Why adjustable timing?  Because the torque / RPM characteristics are important for racing.  For some cars / tracks / conditions, you might want to run less timing for more torque and efficiency, and for other tracks you may prefer to trade some torque for higher RPM.

Generally, a motor with adjustable timing is also "rebuildable" - that means you can take it apart and rebuild it.  Brushes (which usually wear out first) can be replaced, the commutator can be ground in a motor lathe, bearings can be replaced, etc.  So you can expect a longer overall life out of a rebuildable motor, although in my experience rebuildable motors need new brushes more often than non-rebuildable motors need throwing away - probably because they are tuned for higher performance and get more punishing use.

Nonzero timing: This means exactly what it says - "non-zero", or "not zero", or "<> 0".  Any motor which doesn't have zero timing has non-zero timing.

What does this mean for Clod drivers?: You can run any pair of motors with zero timing.  (Caveat: some motors have angled brushes - these aren't in the scope of this post and we'll ignore them for now.  You shouldn't need to worry about that since we aren't discussing those motors here.  AFAIK I've never seen one, only heard about them anecdotally).  So - you can run silvercans, or any tuned motor that has zero timing.

You can also run any pair of motors that has advanced timing - provided the timing is the same front to rear accounting for the switch in rotational direction.  That means, if you set your front motor to give 12 degrees of advance, you would set up your rear motor to give 12 degrees of advance in the other direction.  For example, if you owned a pair of Torque Expert motors pictured in the video above, you would set up your front motor so that the timing marker on the end bell is pointing at the 12 to the right of the zero, and then you would set up your rear motor so the timing marker is pointing at the 12 to the left of the zero.  Caveat: I don't have my Clod axles in front of me right now.  I've glanced at an online manual and I'm pretty sure the front motor rotates anti-clockwise (or counter-clockwise, depending on your preferred flavour of English), which is the 'correct' rotation for a motor, and the rear motor rotates clockwise.  However I can't confirm this for sure because I don't have it with me.  Maybe someone else can confirm.

Should you run advanced timing?  I'd say it's probably not worth it in a Clod.  Maybe if you were racing or you mostly run on flat surfaces.  However, 19T motors should be a sufficient improvement over silvercans - if it were me, I'd try it with zero timing on both motors first, then maybe adjust later if I think I need more RPM.  If the truck hits max RPM very quickly then you can probably afford to trade off some torque for more speed, but if it is mostly bouncing around the mid-range I'd be inclined to leave it at zero.

What about a 7 cell battery? This should make a bit of a difference.  More voltage will make any motor turn faster.  A very simple calculation says you'll get 16.5% more power by adding 1 more cell.  Caveat: the real world doesn't necessarily do simple calculations.  As to whether it will fit - I have no idea, I've never owned a standard Clod.  The answer to this will be somewhere between "yes" and "no" depending on how much modification you want to do.  My answer to any "will it fit?" question is generally always "yes, with some modification."

I know that's a bit wordy and I've probably covered some stuff you already know, but hopefully it will be of help.

We probably need an FAQ for this sort of thing!

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Yesterday i got my RPM Meter.

So next weekend i can test my GT Tuned Motors to see if the Re-timing is correct. I hope i found the perfect Motors for the Stock ESC.

 

If all that works, i could buy a Bulk of theese 25 Turn Motors, re-time them and relable them as "Busterthrusters" or something like that.

It seems that a lot of people do search for a optional motor and a lot of people get Sport Tuned or other timed Motors that aren`t run as they should.

 

 

 

The GT-Tuned Motor is "cheap" (20 Bucks), good Quality, is retimeable "when you know how" and is within the official Motorlimit of the Stock ESC.

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The stock silver cans run well on 3s. You'd burn them out in a lot of other Tamiya vehicles on 3s but the Clod has low gearing more like a crawler so it doesn't tax them as much and you have more thermal headroom.

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