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2 hours ago, Carmine A said:

@moffman at least the Ranger Body ended up on the ORV Chassis - for a LONG time! 

Yeah it was very successful on that chassis and you could say it was a very good combination but the original Ford f150 body was produced way before the orv chassis turned up so it was probably a unforseen marriage of two good products from tamiya! It's just a shame tamiya can't get the licencing to put all the Ford logos on the body!

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Doesn't Tamiya still have Ford licencing? They released the Mustang GT4 on the TT-02 and made a 1/24 model kit fairly recently 

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3 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

I still have hope for an (RC) Challenger from Tamiya:

Tamiya released the first Abrams static model in 1982, the 1/35 RC Abrams in 1999 and the 1/16 RC Abrams in 2017.

Tamiya released the first Challenger (1) static model in 1985, so you can expect the 1/16 RC Challenger (1) this year! (2017 - 1982 +1985 = 2020) :P

Tamiya released the first Challenger 2 static model in 2004, so you can expect the 1/16 RC Challenger 2 in (2017 - 1982 + 2004).....eh....... 2039! :P 

Start saving!

It will take me till about then to be able to afford one anyway. Lol

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18 minutes ago, Bash said:

Doesn't Tamiya still have Ford licencing? They released the Mustang GT4 on the TT-02 and made a 1/24 model kit fairly recently 

Ford are very strange when it comes to anything branding etc! My place of work had a big fleet of vehicles (Van's,  cars) from Ford and the way they enforce their warranty policy is absolutely bizarre to the extent that we chucked them all back! They used to insist on stupid things like a particular brand of wrench and one rep from Ford was visiting and commented on the air hose wasn't what they recommend for the vehicle's (it was an air hose to put air in tyres or clean stuff:blink:) it finally ended when the mechanics looking after the fleet couldn't do the jobs in the time allocate for the vehicle's because of warranty issues so they all went back! So it don't surprise me tamiya have some sort of licencing for one Ford model but not the other!

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20 hours ago, moffman said:

Yeah it was very successful on that chassis and you could say it was a very good combination but the original Ford f150 body was produced way before the orv chassis turned up so it was probably a unforseen marriage of two good products from tamiya! It's just a shame tamiya can't get the licencing to put all the Ford logos on the body!

It's hard for most People to fathom, who got into the Hobby AFTER 1995....

But there used to be NO LICENSING whatsoever!! 😲😲

Car Companies USED to look at their Vehicles in the "Toy" Market as FREE ADVERTISING!! Then, out of the blue - Union Pacific Railroad decided to sue for the use of its Company images on Model Railroading equipment....

And shortly thereafter, other large Companies followed suit. That's also when Hobbies involving any Vehicles except Planes, started become increasingly more expensive.... 

It's a shame, really. In reality it's STILL Free Advertising - but we have to pay for it!! 😖

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3 minutes ago, Carmine A said:

It's hard for most People to fathom, who got into the Hobby AFTER 1995....

But there used to be NO LICENSING whatsoever!! 😲😲

Car Companies USED to look at their Vehicles in the "Toy" Market as FREE ADVERTISING!! Then, out of the blue - Union Pacific Railroad decided to sue for the use of its Company images on Model Railroading equipment....

And shortly thereafter, other large Companies followed suit. That's also when Hobbies involving any Vehicles except Planes, started become increasingly more expensive.... 

It's a shame, really. In reality it's STILL Free Advertising - but we have to pay for it!! 😖

Yeah you absolutely spot on! I think it's that good old word "greed" someone (in union Pacific case) looked and thought other companies are making money out of our brand and we need a slice of that (sorry protect our brand) it's a strange one though because we in the UK had a TV show called the professionals about a special police division (CI5) and the main stay of the shows was flying around chasing the bad guys in Ford cars the fast desirable ones RS2000 escorts,  capri 2 litre sports etc all given to the show as a brand enhancing after British layland made Granada TV pay for all of the cars in the first series (triumph dolomite sprints, TR7's etc) and that was way back in the 70's but like you say it's a shame this is the modern way of thinking🤔

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I once read that in the sixties the managing director of Jaguar (Mr. Lyons) had the policy of: make toy cars of Jaguars, the kids owning a Jaguar toy car will want  a real one in later life. The only restriction was that the models looked like the real ones. The times changed.

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27 minutes ago, moffman said:

Yeah you absolutely spot on! I think it's that good old word "greed" someone (in union Pacific case) looked and thought other companies are making money out of our brand and we need a slice of that (sorry protect our brand) it's a strange one though because we in the UK had a TV show called the professionals about a special police division (CI5) and the main stay of the shows was flying around chasing the bad guys in Ford cars the fast desirable ones RS2000 escorts,  capri 2 litre sports etc all given to the show as a brand enhancing after British layland made Granada TV pay for all of the cars in the first series (triumph dolomite sprints, TR7's etc) and that was way back in the 70's but like you say it's a shame this is the modern way of thinking🤔

SADLY.... It was us Yanks Over Litigious mentality that created this debacle!! In the original UP case, it started to sound like we poor blokes with our 1/87th and 1/48th Scale Trains, were competing for REVENUE with the Union Pacific!!! Seriously! 😲

How they managed to justify that, is still beyond all of us. And what about YOU in the UK? Or Europe? The UP doesn't even SERVE there! 

Yet if you buy any Scale UP Model Trains there - you're still charged Licencing Fees. 😖

Yet, all U.S. Railway Companies got away with that... Then the Auto Industry said "We want a slice of that Pie as well". You summed it up perfectly in one word...

GREED!

(You can Bet that Ford sold quite a few Cars from that TV Show!) About the same period here in the Colonies, "Starsky and Hutch" sold a lot of Ford Torinos, "The Rockford Files" sold a lot of Pontiac Firebirds... And the Movie "Smokey and the Bandit" resulted in a RECORD year for Pontiac Trans Am sales! 

All without charging the Consumer ANYTHING.

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17 hours ago, Carmine A said:

It's hard for most People to fathom, who got into the Hobby AFTER 1995....

But there used to be NO LICENSING whatsoever!! 😲😲

Car Companies USED to look at their Vehicles in the "Toy" Market as FREE ADVERTISING!! Then, out of the blue - Union Pacific Railroad decided to sue for the use of its Company images on Model Railroading equipment....

And shortly thereafter, other large Companies followed suit. That's also when Hobbies involving any Vehicles except Planes, started become increasingly more expensive.... 

It's a shame, really. In reality it's STILL Free Advertising - but we have to pay for it!! 😖

I had no idea it started wit Union Pacific! 

Either way, it's too bad for model fans and a big shame, imho.

I read an article in a German model magazine some years ago. They had interviewed the persons responsible for licensing in the VW Group. They argued that the main reason for having licensing at all and for charging for it, was the need to ensure and the cost resulting from that, that companies that manufactured VW-related toys, models and other items, only offered items according to VW's high quality standards. I dare call that a downright lie. A look at the terrible quality of many of the models and toys licensed and sold by VW is enough to conclude that they are happy with quality standards way below even the worst cars VW has ever manufactured. Some of the VW-licensed toys and even models, are nothing but trash. Designed, manufactured and sold to create additional profit, but clearly at the cost of VW's longterm image.  As a collector of toys and models of aircooled VW's for almost 40 years, I think I'm entitled to have an opinion about this. This doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right though!

As for free advertising and creating preferences in future customers at a very early stage in their lives, I can't think of anything better and cheaper than letting toy and model companies make miniatures of OEM's fullsize vehicles. I know next to nothing about marketing, but this seems pretty obvious to me and though I don't know the arrangements between Japanese car manufacturers and Japanese toy and model manufacturers, there are some strong indications that they have a similar opinion about it. Or simply put, long term goodwill and the creation of preferences in the childhood of future customers  seem to be more important to them than short term profit for licensing of whatever good or bad products that use their names or designs.

I have shared this video before, but it exemplifies a healthier and more sympathetic attitude than the licensing madness. It's utterly cute and hits a sensitive nostalgic soft spot in me too:  (Btw, for those who may not know; the toy car in the video is a Subaru too, a Subaru 360, to be precise.)

 

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2 hours ago, Carmine A said:

SADLY.... It was us Yanks Over Litigious mentality that created this debacle!! In the original UP case, it started to sound like we poor blokes with our 1/87th and 1/48th Scale Trains, were competing for REVENUE with the Union Pacific!!! Seriously! 😲

How they managed to justify that, is still beyond all of us. And what about YOU in the UK? Or Europe? The UP doesn't even SERVE there! 

Yet if you buy any Scale UP Model Trains there - you're still charged Licencing Fees. 😖

Yet, all U.S. Railway Companies got away with that... Then the Auto Industry said "We want a slice of that Pie as well". You summed it up perfectly in one word...

GREED!

(You can Bet that Ford sold quite a few Cars from that TV Show!) About the same period here in the Colonies, "Starsky and Hutch" sold a lot of Ford Torinos, "The Rockford Files" sold a lot of Pontiac Firebirds... And the Movie "Smokey and the Bandit" resulted in a RECORD year for Pontiac Trans Am sales! 

All without charging the Consumer ANYTHING.

We have Richard Branson and virgin trains he handed back a contract on the west coast mainline because he wasn't earning enough profit from it! I always thought a contract was a contract and you make it work he also had his sticky fingers in the east coast line but the pinnacle of his arrogance was when he tried sueing the NHS for losing out on a 82 million pound contract (boo hoo) then he has the brass nerve to as the government for a bailout to keep his company afloat during the coronavirus 😤........well done Richard!, I used to love that brown Pontiac firebird in the Rockford files it was also a good show!

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@Mokei Kagaku I AGREE!

"I read an article in a German model magazine some years ago. They had interviewed the persons responsible for licensing in the VW Group. They argued that the main reason for having licensing at all and for charging for it, was the need to ensure and the cost resulting from that, that companies that manufactured VW-related toys, models and other items, only offered items according to VW's high quality standards."

Tamiya doesn't help that with the recent Type 2 Bus, and the Karmann Ghia - on FWD Chassis!!! 😲

"As for free advertising and creating preferences in future customers at a very early stage in their lives, I can't think of anything better and cheaper than letting toy and model companies make miniatures of OEM's fullsize vehicles. I know next to nothing about marketing, but this seems pretty obvious to me......"

Sadly my Friend, I have an MBA... and it never made any bleeding sense to me either!!! EVEN the James Bond films, at least inspired young AND older Kids to try to earn enough for an Aston Martin!  (I came close, and purchased a Lotus Esprit - that Roger Moore drove!!) Never quite made Aston Martin money, and those dreams are SHATTERED as of 10 years ago, but I WANTED one!

Thank you for that Video!! 😊 I may not have understood a WORD of it - except Arigato! I surely understood the sentiment. It was very touching...

And YES! Probably sold a few Subarus as well. Made me take notice of the BRZ!!! 😁

@moffman - Doesn't that Spoiled BRAT have enough BILLIONS of Pounds - to buy GERMANY?? 😲😲😖   It's really hard to feel sorry for him....

And he could Darn well bail HIMSELF out! 😡😠

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10 hours ago, Carmine A said:

It's hard for most People to fathom, who got into the Hobby AFTER 1995....

But there used to be NO LICENSING whatsoever!! 😲😲

Car Companies USED to look at their Vehicles in the "Toy" Market as FREE ADVERTISING!! Then, out of the blue - Union Pacific Railroad decided to sue for the use of its Company images on Model Railroading equipment....

And shortly thereafter, other large Companies followed suit. That's also when Hobbies involving any Vehicles except Planes, started become increasingly more expensive.... 

It's a shame, really. In reality it's STILL Free Advertising - but we have to pay for it!! 😖

That’s sort of right but needs context 

Ad deals on RC cars go back to the late 70s and - whilst not modern licenses - covered a lot of the same ground 

Tamiya’s mixed history with Porsche wasn’t theft ... it was a deal 

As was their relationship with Ford over the years 

To be fair to @Carmine A - most smaller component manufacturer logos were abject plagiarism - which is why re re decals are naff but we still get a VW Beetle shell 👍

And the UP  thing (whilst true)  started out as a 96 bunfight about a music video where a branded UP train conductor gets plastered on the job , mows down pedestrians then bombs an ambulance - honestly, Google it  ... you can see why they took offense !

It understandably made them way more  sensitive about brand and model train stuff came way later - I think mid 2005 / 06 ? 🤔

It wasn’t the start of brands costing money to use - just the first time someone held idiocy to account in modelling 😂

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@SuperChamp82 You're right, the actual Litigation heated up in 2004. Model Railroader Magazine gave us the blow by blow details. The Music Video being the catalyst is absolutely true. Like everything else with Corporations and Lawyers, it was taken too far!

It did end up by 2007, as just a Blanket Agreement for each Model Railroad Manufacturer to pay a single "Image Fee" for use of the Railroad's Livery... Which was far better than how it started, where they wanted $40.00 PER ITEM SOLD! 

The only thing we in the Model Railroading Community had a real issue with, is having fees levied on Railroads that were bought up by Union Pacific - but haven't existed in DECADES. Like Denver & Rio Grande, Western Pacific, Southern Pacific, Sacramento Northern - and about two dozen others.

I don't have the whole story on the Model Car and RC Car Licensing... but I do know it was nowhere near as rampant as it has been this Century. From what I've heard, it's actually more of a raw deal than Model Railroading got, as far as Fees are concerned.

Right or wrong, I cannot condone the actions of these Companies! Model Trains DO NOT haul anything for revenue - therefore are NOT any Business threat to the Railroads. 

And unless someone has invented a Machine that can shrink us down to Scale...... THAT'S no threat to Automaker's bottom line either. 😖  I do know that American Car Manufacturers at least, before the 1990's, used to welcome Models of their Vehicles. As long as they were faithfully reproduced. Again, they were FREE Advertising for the Car Makers!

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On 7/31/2020 at 3:40 AM, Killajb said:

-Chrome King Blackfoot wheels too much of a hassle..?  Why not just use Monster Beetle Wheels without the extra step of gold paint (wheels are chrome then painted with gold translucent paint).  

Another take on this would be just some wheel options for the Monster Beetle. I hate the gold chrome wheels, and really want chrome / silver or black wheels for mine. It's a Black Edition, and a silver/chrome would make so much more sense than the tacky gold

But then so would black dampers, which Tamiya DO make, but instead included yellow ones in the Black Edition kit. I sold the yellow ones and bought some black ones.

Oh, and what's with a white battery tray pin when most of the plastics are black? Go figure.

IMG_6879.jpeg.6b1689ff06a7720c66e8f649dc0394ad.jpeg

But the wheel situation is a massive bug bear. I've stopped the build until I can work something out

I've got front (Fastrax) and rear (Tamiya) 12mm hex conversions, and have tried HPI Classic King Wheels (pictured) and Fastrax 3672/3673, but the offsets are all wrong. Midnight Pumpkin might be an option, but they're wider than the MB wheels and not 12mm hex

IMG_6874.jpeg.7f4c0fed1f66d835726c508c6333bf55.jpeg

Has anyone found a silver / chrome / black wheel for the MB that actually fits?

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I have a set of Proline Revolver chrome wheels on the way.  They come in "wide wheelbase" trim which will hopefully be the proper offset for the ORV chassis.  https://www.rpmrcproducts.com/shop/wheels/crawler-wheels/revolver-rock-crawler-wheels-wide-wheelbase/  I also have the frog 12mm hex adapters for the rear wheels and 12mm hex conversion for the front wheels on the way since I ordered a set of 4 of the rear wheels.  They are becoming more and more difficult to find but there' still some out there on eBay.  Will post pics when they arrive.

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46 minutes ago, Killajb said:

I have a set of Proline Revolver chrome wheels on the way.  They come in "wide wheelbase" trim which will hopefully be the proper offset for the ORV chassis.  https://www.rpmrcproducts.com/shop/wheels/crawler-wheels/revolver-rock-crawler-wheels-wide-wheelbase/  I also have the frog 12mm hex adapters for the rear wheels and 12mm hex conversion for the front wheels on the way since I ordered a set of 4 of the rear wheels.  They are becoming more and more difficult to find but there' still some out there on eBay.  Will post pics when they arrive.

Cool, will be really interested to hear if they fit or not 🙏 🤞👍

EDIT: oooooh, they do BLACK versions too B)

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Its the same with aircraft in static models and computer games.

There were certain issues with Northropp Grumman and Lockheed charging licensing fees or outright refusing to allow the likeness of some of their products they stopped making 70 years ago. 

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Spot on @Superluminal

But that’s about military designs being funded by governments - so the original deals with manufacturers gave taxpayers a call (not ownership of) the IP they paid for 

The trouble is every government is then a pit of mindless bureaucracy ... that make it way too hard for airframers  to bother navigating vs the modest license fees in scale modelling or elsewhere 

Selling aircraft to friendly foreign countries for a big government % - absolutely

Selling old designs to hobby manufacturers or computer game developers for v little - bottom of the pile ... 

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2 hours ago, Juhunio said:

Cool, will be really interested to hear if they fit or not 🙏 🤞👍

EDIT: oooooh, they do BLACK versions too B)

Funny you should say that. I have the black version. I tried fitting them on my DF03, only to discover that the spokes interfere with the lower front suspension arms, and they're way too wide for buggy tires lol. I wish I could just mail them to you for free, but shipping to anywhere from where I am is not cheap...

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On 8/2/2020 at 3:36 PM, Mokei Kagaku said:

I had no idea it started wit Union Pacific! 

Either way, it's too bad for model fans and a big shame, imho.

I read an article in a German model magazine some years ago. They had interviewed the persons responsible for licensing in the VW Group. They argued that the main reason for having licensing at all and for charging for it, was the need to ensure and the cost resulting from that, that companies that manufactured VW-related toys, models and other items, only offered items according to VW's high quality standards. I dare call that a downright lie. A look at the terrible quality of many of the models and toys licensed and sold by VW is enough to conclude that they are happy with quality standards way below even the worst cars VW has ever manufactured. Some of the VW-licensed toys and even models, are nothing but trash. Designed, manufactured and sold to create additional profit, but clearly at the cost of VW's longterm image.  As a collector of toys and models of aircooled VW's for almost 40 years, I think I'm entitled to have an opinion about this. This doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right though!

As for free advertising and creating preferences in future customers at a very early stage in their lives, I can't think of anything better and cheaper than letting toy and model companies make miniatures of OEM's fullsize vehicles. I know next to nothing about marketing, but this seems pretty obvious to me and though I don't know the arrangements between Japanese car manufacturers and Japanese toy and model manufacturers, there are some strong indications that they have a similar opinion about it. Or simply put, long term goodwill and the creation of preferences in the childhood of future customers  seem to be more important to them than short term profit for licensing of whatever good or bad products that use their names or designs.

I have shared this video before, but it exemplifies a healthier and more sympathetic attitude than the licensing madness. It's utterly cute and hits a sensitive nostalgic soft spot in me too:  (Btw, for those who may not know; the toy car in the video is a Subaru too, a Subaru 360, to be precise.)

 

About says  it all tears and all

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It's about cost. Tamiya is a publicly traded company. It has a duty to minimize cost & maximize profit.  Re-issuing old RC cars is perfect for that. 

Tamiya has done some upgrades (mostly if it's cheaper).  Like dog-bones instead of hexa-bones. It was probably cheaper to go with what's produced now than re-starting the old standard.  Same with Novafox's anti-sway bar. Using washers is cheaper than carbon fiber parts.  However, new gear covers won't be cheaper. The machine that's stamping aluminum gear cover might be able to stamp soft aluminum only.  If they change it to something stronger, they may need a new stamping machine.  

Tamiya engineers may say "Engineering recommends upgrading to stronger aluminum. But it will reduce the longevity of of the stamping machine down to 50%."  The executives would ask, "enough for 3rd run next time?"  Engineers would say, "no, next time, we'll need to invest $300,000 for a new stamping machine. Accounting says that would raise the final cost to $5 per kit."  The executives would say, "if we don't upgrade, can we do the 3rd run without upgrading?"Yes."  "Then keep it as it is and use soft aluminum for gear covers. We'd rather spend 1/10 of that on advertisements. Marketing says that $30,000 will bring 10,000 more customers, which will sell 15,000 more kits in 3 years."  

We'd say, "but I'm willing to pay $5 more for stronger gearbox."  Yes, but that's just us; hardcore fans.  Tamiya is competing for attention of buyers who are thinking, "Should I buy my son Traxxas Slash? But if I get Blackfoot, I can play with it again after 30 years..."  $5 difference might tip the balance toward Tamiya.  

(Obviously, I don't know how the executives think. They'd also consider how many they could sell for the 3rd run.  It's probably like 30% of the first re-run. Even less financial incentives to fix mechanical issues.)   

 

[Trademark issues]-----

I don't know much about it. But I think it was broadened.  The core standard had been whether or not the branding would confuse ordinary folks and cut into the profit.  If somebody creates a toothpaste brand called "Collgate," would it be confusing to buyers who want "Colgate?"  Yes, that would be a clear infringement even if there is one more "L" in the name.  The question used to be "would consumers confuse 1/10th Tamiya Blackfoot with real Ford F150?"  The answer would have been no, because they are entirely in different fields. No confusion, no infringement.  

But as we all have noticed, it has gotten broader.  In 1990's, you might have gotten away with naming your phone "Google,"  "Apple," or "Colgate," because google was an internet search company and Apple was just a computer company. No confusion.  You could still name your phone Colgate, but I'd imagine Calgate would sue, even though they don't make phones (yet).  Because it blocks the future use of their own name.  

Ford can argue that the "Ford" name on the RC car would be confusing when Ford decides to create their own RC brand In the future. (to be fair, there are real 1:1 tire companies getting into RC tire field like BF Goodrich: https://www.prolineracing.com/tires/bfgoodrich-baja-ta-kr2-sc-2.2-3.0-m2-medium-tires.asp)  

TA9Tq0E.jpg

Ford can argue that the name owned by American stockholders should not be used to benefit Japanese stockholders, even if it's just one confused grandma thinking 1/10th Blackfoot was made by Ford.  By the same token, if I am willing to pay a dollar more for the livery of Union Pacific trains, I would think that Union Pacific should be paid at least 20 cents of that. (fair is fair, but that would be a small sum, do they really have to do it?)  

Also, Ford might deny the use of their name if they do not want to be linked with Tamiya's clicking gearboxes... lol...

Or, Ford might want to cut off Tamiya and just deal with ProLine exclusively.  A lexan body costing $50 a piece might bring more licensing fees.  But it is true... often it's a free advertisement. Smaller company refusing to give away license is shooting themselves in the foot.  

There is a reverse possibility : Tamiya could be asking for advertising fees from smaller companies.  They refuse, and Tamiya erases them.  This might just be possible because Tamiya products are far reaching. (This is a pure speculation. But there are always the other side of the story to consider... business dealings can be convoluted)  

Just so you know, these legal issues take us to strange places...

 

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On 7/30/2020 at 10:13 PM, lsear2905 said:

I have a few:

  • Use hex screws, seriously I have JIS drivers but hex is just better,
  • Why, as a 'model' company do you release cars on the wrong platforms? FWD cars on RWD platforms, AWD cars on FWD platforms, etc?
  • Why can't I buy portal axles for the GF01/G601 separately, and why are they only in red? and
  • Be consistent with part numbers, some are 5 digit, some are 8, often the same part has 2 different numbers, why?

 

Especially the wrong platforms on Cars ( the Gen 4 mx5 Miata on a Fwd platform irks me ) 

agree on the portals, too 

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On 8/16/2020 at 2:24 PM, Killajb said:

I have a set of Proline Revolver chrome wheels on the way.  They come in "wide wheelbase" trim which will hopefully be the proper offset for the ORV chassis.  https://www.rpmrcproducts.com/shop/wheels/crawler-wheels/revolver-rock-crawler-wheels-wide-wheelbase/  I also have the frog 12mm hex adapters for the rear wheels and 12mm hex conversion for the front wheels on the way since I ordered a set of 4 of the rear wheels.  They are becoming more and more difficult to find but there' still some out there on eBay.  Will post pics when they arrive.

Hey @Killajb did you get the wheels? Did they fit?

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