Thunders FF01 Bandwagon Jumping

[Carmine A 2046]

Cy..... Since you do take Competition more seriously than I do, I'd consider a worthwhile Upgrade. 

The Hobbywing WP1080 ESC may cost almost twice as much as the 1060 - but it superior in every way! 85 Watt limit for starters. An ADJUSTABLE BEC - from 5.5v to 11.3v! 

Adjustable Drag Brake rate, adjustable Throttle response and Torque Curves, plus much more. It may be used as the go-to Crawler ESC, but it makes an incredible On-Road ESC as well. 😊

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

Was passing the track on the way to visit my Dad (for the first time in 8 months), so seemed rude not to have a quick run. Bought both fronties. The FF01 runs really lovely with the Alfa body, and it's the first time i had done any reasonable track running. It ran so nicely! In warmish conditions i was running Sweep32 all round and once the rears heated up the balance was really nice. Didn't have to change a thing apart from turning down the throttle a little. On the track the combo of new battery, me used to the torque tuned TT01, and Iconic motor was a bit lively!

It's not running any anti roll bars, and it's running soft springs (53440 yellow front, red rear), but it still seemed good. Was really nice to properly run it, but i think i might get a slower motor. I don't want to wreck the car and something slower would still be plenty of fun at the track. 

 

[Carmine A 2046]

Definitely a good looking pair!

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

I have been warming up to racing the FF01 in the Iconic class at the club once i have enough counting rounds with my TT01E. Its now running the Team Powers stock motor and a 27t pinion with the 66t spur. This is the tallest gearing an FF01 can run, which is still only 5.96FDR. I run 5.72 on my TT01E so it shouldn't be crazy fast, but at my club track, it should work well because it's pretty tight. 

Anyway, the reason for the post! The car came with a ball diff which has always been a bit gritty, and i have never had much luck with them in buggies. However, it's always put power down cleanly and a full open gear diff as the alternative doesn't fill me with joy. I changed the balls a while back but it didn't really improve so i decided to treat it to all new internals. I picked up a Top Force ball diff bag with everything. The cone washers, balls, everything. Not bad for £8.50. It got a full strip and clean, and the main parts are all in good order, so just the internals. Balls, cones, plates, everything. Checked out the FF01 manual and seems i was missing some cone washers that help keep the preload on the plates, but on the plus side it seems i have the one piece TA03 thrust bearing which is cool

Went together and it is SOOOOOO smooth! Tightened it all the way up, then backed off 1/2 turn, and jammed a screwdriver in one outdrive and gently ran the motor to bed it in a little. Seemed good so i buttoned it up and took it for a street spin. 

It is running so nice! I think there was something janky about the diff before because it would pull a little under power but not everytime. Now is all good, and after 10 mins the diff is still super smooth. Feels maybe a bit too oprn so i took it out and checked it, but still bang on 1/2 turn from full tight. I tightened a 1/4 turn, still smooth, so put it back together. Feels so great, so looking forward to some track running. 

One other thing today was a fan. I still need a lead extension to reach the servo and it's bigger than i expected, but it fits under the 155 no problem and hopefully keep the motor nice and cool. Its attached with a countersink screw pushed up through one of the 3nm holes in the top of the gearcase and pinched up with an M3 flanged nylock. 

Got some caster c hubs designed up, and new bumper with posts for an FF03 foam to fit the big overhang Alfa. This little one is for the 306 body which is tight. Just hoping for a couple of people will club in with me to get the 3d printing over the minimum order. Drop me a DM if you want any of my 3d printed stuff for better than shapeways price. 

 

 

 

[wtcc5 4896]

Glad to hear the good news about the differential! That’s a huge fan you fitted there 

 

Looking at the last picture, I wonder why you put the rx so far back in the car (and not behind the steering servo).

Regarding the whole cable management, I would say, you can optimize weight and c.o.g.

Is it possible to route/locate the battery cables and capacitor underneath the top deck?

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

1 hour ago, wtcc5 said:

Glad to hear the good news about the differential! That’s a huge fan you fitted there 

 

Looking at the last picture, I wonder why you put the rx so far back in the car (and not behind the steering servo).

Regarding the whole cable management, I would say, you can optimize weight and c.o.g.

Is it possible to route/locate the battery cables and capacitor underneath the top deck?

Up until recently I had quite a large, powerful steering servo which glitched the Rx, plus on FF chassis I like the idea of pushing some weight towards the rear and the cable route was neat. The caps are just tapped there because that's where they fit to test them. To be honest I haven't put much more thought into it, but I can certainly put the caps behind the servo now. And you're right, the Rx can probably live closer to the centre of the chassis too with the small servo. 

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

Got chatting about battery locations on @wtcc5FF01 thread and how longitudinal shorty battery would probably be the ideal. I got looking my FRP chassis and had a quick play in CAD to come up with a replacement for the front spar which would retain a longitudinal battery. It would require my low profile servo to be pushed forward to fit the battery against the kit rear bulkhead.

This morning i though i would trial fit the battery to see if it was even possible. I removed all the battery retainer parts except the rear structural bulkhead and laid my shorty lipo on the deck

Definitely not enough room, and the steering servo would have to move forward about 8mm for the battery to fit. 

I removed the servo mount screws to see if it was possible to squeeze everything in

 

Unfortunately not! The battery does go, but the servo is jammed hard against the transmission bulkhead. It's a shame, because the kit vertical battery retainer which sprouts from the rear bulkhead is really good. The shorty fits snuggly between to the two arms to the point where i don't think it would need another retention. 

So, if i am to pursue this its not possible to do it on the stock Tamiya TA02/FF01 double deck chassis plates. I see two possibilities, and both use the rear bulkhead/retainer brcause it's so good. First option would be to take a leaf out of the FF03 design book and rotate the steering servo through 90 deg and mount alongside the battery on the left. This would retain all the stock plate and bulkhead locations, but require new holes in the left side of the lower deck, and a 3d printed 90 deg master steering crank intead of the current straight version. Means modifying the deck, but actually quite low cost and would probably work quite nicely for balance with the ESC moved to the right, directly opposite the relocated servo. 

Option two is to retain the stock steering arrangement, but do all new top, bottom and rear upper decks in carbon. The approach would be to move the rear battery bulkhead and retainer rearwards 10mm (requiring a long top deck and short upper rear deck) in order for the battery to sit just behind the servo. A bit of foam tape on the back of the servo and you would have really good battery retention. I could either drill 2 new holes in the existing lower deck for the new bulkhead location, or go new carbon lower deck which behind the ESC/servo area could be narrowed right down to almost battery width. Would be very cool, but expensive! 

I will have a play with these a ideas a little more. I like the thought of keeping as many stock parts as possible. 

 

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

Quick extra thought: I think the side mounted servo could have legs 

If i 3D printed a longer servo mount to pick up on the existing hole in the deck (just visible between the battery and lower servo post) it would just need one extra hole in the deck to pick up on the front servo post, and the 90deg master steering crank. Interesting....

[wtcc5 4896]

Alternatively you can only use the middle front chassis posts (the ones you showed in green on your CAD pic) and leave out the middle rear posts. I do that on my runner and the car is on rails.

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

@wtcc5 How do you remove the mid/rear posts without removing the top main deck to top rear deck connection? 

[wtcc5 4896]

@ThunderDragonCy: You can’t  (if you use the original part without changing its shape).

But designing a little connection part shouldn’t be challenge if you make the front posts also.

On my runner, I don’t use the lower screws on this part and the chassis stays strong, just has more flex.

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

Ha! That would explain it then! 

[Tizer 606]

One long upperdeck going from the gearbox to the rear shocktower would be cool. It will look less like a FF01 and more like a modern frontie, but it does give you a lot more room for all the components.

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

@Tizer That idea definitely got me thinking, so I have come up with this. 

Still uses a completely unmodified Tamiya bottom deck, with a full length top deck based on the FF04 EVO design, picking up on the attachment for my carbon rear upper deck onto my carbon shock tower. Some 2mm thick carbon battery retainers that pick up off the existing bottom deck holes and locating points, with a drone standoff on one side with carbon top retainer like a modern TC car. Might need another one on the other side though? Although it's quite a few carbon pieces it is pretty easy with no 3D printed parts required, and using the existing locating holes means you can move the battery +-10mm longitudinally just like on the original arrangement. 

What do you think?

[wtcc5 4896]

Very nice battery braces!

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

Another well used, vintage piece of the original car gave out over the weekend. Tapped a kerb and cracked the steering knuckle. After a bit of research looking for blue TA02 knuckles i discovered the TA03 is the same, and thanks to the re-release, plentiful. 

New rubber sealed 1510 and 1260 bearings from rcbearings whilst i was at it. 

All back together, and after a bit of checking to get both running free, all is good. Looking forward to fitting them to the caster c-hubs i have being 3d printed at the moment. They have 850 bearing housings too, so should be super smooth. 

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

Some more refinements to the longitudinal shorty idea.

I placed the servo and ESC in the model to see how far forward I could move things, and it was about 10mm from the first idea, but only if I didn't use the loop of carbon to retain the battery around the front. I figured I could use some stick on foam on the back of the servo to hold the battery, and use 10mm tick foam block here if I were using the 10mm rearward battery location option. It's shown all the way forward, and the small gap between battery and servo (green) would be where the stick on foam would go

The retainers are slimmed down and simplified, and stealing an idea from 2wd buggies, the little nodules on the front and rear retainers would be for long o-rings to pull over the top of the battery and hold it down. This reduces the size and number of carbon parts, and uses 5mm thick drone standoffs to raise the off the deck a little to make sure they hold on to the battery. I tried fitting a full length battery in, but it fouls the rear suspension mounting block, so this would be shorty only. It still only uses the existing holes on the Tamiya FRP lower deck, so no modification to that at all. 

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

Treated the FF01 to some alloy servo posts. Felt like having the kit plastic ones was letting the side down a bit now its so nice.

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

After a good round then a scrappy one with my TT01E tonight, i decided to mix things up and finally race my FF01. Here it is lined up with a fellow racer and my mate Tom's very quick FF02 in the foreground. 

Despite laptimes being nearly a second slower per lap than my TT01E, it was truly lovely to drive. I didn't have much time to set it up, but i think it needs a little more rear grip. Maybe tyres, maybe softer springs. Given I have 4 heats per meeting, i can see me rolling it out once or twice per round. Was just so good to race it in anger. 

 

[Nicadraus 6198]

On 6/16/2021 at 12:50 AM, ThunderDragonCy said:

Another well used, vintage piece of the original car gave out over the weekend. Tapped a kerb and cracked the steering knuckle. After a bit of research looking for blue TA02 knuckles i discovered the TA03 is the same, and thanks to the re-release, plentiful. 

New rubber sealed 1510 and 1260 bearings from rcbearings whilst i was at it. 

All back together, and after a bit of checking to get both running free, all is good. Looking forward to fitting them to the caster c-hubs i have being 3d printed at the moment. They have 850 bearing housings too, so should be super smooth. 

 

The CC-01 knuckles also fit the FF-01 and vice versa just in case you want more options.

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

3D printed parts arrived. Trying the 4 deg c hubs which is same extra caster as the hop up aluminium c hubs that Tamiya don't make anymore. Here are the kit c hubs

And my new ones

I got the clearances wrong so i have had to file and cut the rear away next to the arms to get enough inward rotation, but the 850 bearings fit really well so now i have them fitted the steering feels super smooth.

I have done some design changes by checking the clearances in CAD. Can't believe i didn't do that first time around. I'm an idiot. 

I also got a revised master steering arm. It's been bothering me that i have the dual rate turned down to less than 50% to make the steering throw right and calm enough, so i did a new arm with a longer inboard lever to reduce the mechanical advantage. 

Hope they both work. Its raining so no point running tonight. Hopefully racing on saturday so i'll give it another run out. 

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

The other thing this new vendor i have found does is flexible material. It's kind of soft and impact resistant. I have used it with good success for the small bumper i normally have on the FF01 to clear the 306 Maxi shell which has tiny front overhang, but the 155 has much more space. Seeing as i am occasionally venturing onto the track i wanted something a little more prototective and kinder to the shell. 

This new bumper has two posts which locate the inboard pair of holes on an FF03/XV01 bumper foam

I swiped the foam off my FF03 to check fit. It's a little bit snug around the motor end bell, but nothing concerning. It's helf in place by self tappers with spare CVA pistons. 

I am really pleased with this as it seems spot on for the job i need it to do. Here it is with the shell in place. 

 

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

Raced! Got bored or fighting my TT01E so raced this and my TB03 

Gave it a quick shakedown and i think my 4 deg c hubs aren't right. It kept not coming back to centre. Shame, but i brought the kit c hubs and swapped them back on and it ran perfectly.

Ran it for a couple of heats. First heat was super clean and i won it, but only managed a 13 lap heat. Only 1 second off 14, but i have done better with the TT01E. The handling was great but it was bouncy on the power so acceleration was slow. Thinking back to @wtcc5 setup he is running way softer than i was. I had the yellow medium from the 53440 set front and the blue from the 53163 set rear. That is softer than the "soft" red from the 53440 set. @wtcc5 runs the 53163 blue front and red rear which is super soft. I decided to try going in that direction so i dropped a step on the front to 53440 red. It was getting the power down much nicer and i had the best run! Pretty much error free but still slower than my best TT01E time dammit! Not far off though. 14 laps in 314. I don't know if this is the ultimate pace of the FF01 at our track, but i felt like i didn't have any more to give. I think the only thing that could have got me faster would be some 28 rears so i could run 32 fronts. I was running contact 34 front, sweep 32 rear. The contacts are consistent, but they don't have the best grip. I tried running 32 both ends but it immediately gave terminal oversteer. 

Still, it was lovely to drive and i had the best time racing it. I even like the battle scars

 

 

[wtcc5 4896]

Ummm, are you telling us, that you are a little slower than a TT-01e with an FF-01 and not happy  A TT-01 should normally gain two tenth out of a corner alone. Sounds pretty normal for me 

The problem with the c-hubs is strange. Could you analyze the problem, already? My design worked flawless on @Quincy  and my car last weekend and I cannot think of what could be wrong (as the geometry looks pretty straight forward).

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

49 minutes ago, wtcc5 said:

Ummm, are you telling us, that you are a little slower than a TT-01e with an FF-01 and not happy  A TT-01 should normally gain two tenth out of a corner alone. Sounds pretty normal for me 

The problem with the c-hubs is strange. Could you analyze the problem, already? My design worked flawless on @Quincy  and my car last weekend and I cannot think of what could be wrong (as the geometry looks pretty straight forward).

I am sad because the TT01 is annoying the badword out of me and my FF01 is beautiful to drive 😂 Turns out that in the heat even the fast guys weren't as fast as usual. My best TT01 time is 3 seconds quicker than i managed in the FF01 today. 

Your C Hub design is perfect. I couldn't open the file super easily so i did my own, which was too bulky at the bottom pivot and a little too wide. It is my design that didn't work. I modelled my own version for fun, but didn't do enough checks. I know the changes i need to make, but the high minimum order price of my uk 3d printing vendor makes it unlikely to get more soon.