Question for all NIB Hotshot owners...

[Hibernaculum 933]

I have half a memory of some Fox kits having the driveshafts preassembled in the rubber boots, while others (earlier ones) did not... but this could be a scrap of a half remembered dream or something

I think I draw the line at my own arbitrary point, when it comes to these variations. Some I care about, some I don't.

SWB Wild Willy, black bumpers on Sand Scorcher, decal differences...I care about those. They affect the appearance quite a bit.

The Hotshot bumper is borderline for me - it was a mistake from Tamiya, which was fixed very quickly. The later bumper is the one we know more and is arguably more the true Hotshot bumper.

Most other smaller variations in cars (that don't impact appearance) are arguably too small to worry about much, and in some cases it's even impossible to figure out what was "first", or if there even was a true first.

H.

[HunterZero 76]

Changes to the Fox weren't as dramatic as the changes to the Hot Shot.

Earlier Foxes had CVA dampers with free floating pistons and different X parts, with a collar for pushing in the free piston. Later Foxes had the modern black damper bladder seals instead.

All Foxes came with preassembled driveshafts, but the earlier Fox driveshafts apparently did not come greased. After customers missed the step in the instructions to grease them, and complained the driveshafts wore out, Tamiya started pre-greasing them.

Plus there are versions of the rear Fox arms with and without the downward travel limiter tabs on the upper arms. I am guessing that the very earliest versions did not have the lugs, but this seems to have changed pretty early in the run.

- James

[MAD RACER 566]

Later version of the Fox had a few running changes.

Rear upper arms have down stops to limit the down travel on the rear arms.

Being the first or second model ( Super Shot ) with CVA shocks i think they went to rubber bladders later on too. The first having a floating piston with a spring to act as the bladder.

As far as im aware of the drive shafts were all pre assembled at the factory.

[Hibernaculum 933]

All Foxes came with preassembled driveshafts, but the earlier Fox driveshafts apparently did not come greased. After customers missed the step in the instructions to grease them, and complained the driveshafts wore out, Tamiya started pre-greasing them.

^^^ My memory was confused, but yes this is what I was trying to recall earlier.

H.

[Wandy 1529]

Most other smaller variations in cars (that don't impact appearance) are arguably too small to worry about much, and in some cases it's even impossible to figure out what was "first", or if there even was a true first.

....which is exactly why the claim from some, who state that the Buggy Champ and Sand Scorcher 2010 are somehow "not real" versions of the 1979 cars, is completely false.

[Wandy 1529]

The Hotshot bumper is borderline for me - it was a mistake from Tamiya, which was fixed very quickly. The later bumper is the one we know more and is arguably more the true Hotshot bumper.

I completely understand why they changed the material for the Mk2 but they should have kept the original design. I think the differences of the two bumpers gives the car a completely different overall look. For instance, by using the same bumper, the Supershot looks too much like a merely uprated Hotshot to me.

Your right though, the Mk2 is the established version. Which explains why many don't even know of the existence of the Mk1.

[Hibernaculum 933]

....which is exactly why the claim from some, who state that the Buggy Champ and Sand Scorcher 2010 are somehow "not real" versions of the 1979 cars, is completely false.

I disagree with that though. I think the different decals, shocks and chassis plate (for starters) are enough visible differences, that I would prefer to own the originals, and I'm not in any rush to buy the re-releases. But I feel the same about all the re-releases

But it's all personal. I'm lucky enough to have the originals. The original box art (original decals) is important to me too.

[loaded 4]

The Buggy Champ has the same body, but the Scorcher body is way off

Chassis plate is the wrong colour, Buggy Champ front tyres have only served to increase the value of original Rough Rider tyres, the list goes on....

Paul.

[Wandy 1529]

I disagree with that though. I think the different decals, shocks and chassis plate (for starters) are enough visible differences, that I would prefer to own the originals, and I'm not in any rush to buy the re-releases. But I feel the same about all the re-releases

But it's all personal. I'm lucky enough to have the originals. The original box art (original decals) is important to me too.

That's all fair enough H, but the point I make is that regardless of what your personal preference is of a particular variant of each car the fact remains that both original & re-release are as valid as each other. There is a distinct whiff of snobbery around this place sometimes that if you do not own the original 1980s variant then your re-release is somehow a poor "knock off" job, hence the many "it's only the re-release" comments that frequent the forums.

The term "re-release" is in actual fact not a particular accurate way of describing the 21st century variants of each 1980's buggy that has arrived on the scene. These cars are in fact the next Mk up from the last one that was produced back in the day, hence the Buggy Champ is in actual fact the Mk2 Rough Rider, the 2010 Scorcher is the Mk2 Scorcher and the Hotshot 2007 is the Mk3 Hotshot. The fact that there was a 20 odd year gap in between these Mk1/2/3 cars seems to have given people the liberty of writing off the latest versions as "not a true ----------".

If the Sand Scorcher & Rough Rider had been upgraded in, say 1986, with different colour chassis plate, steel UJ's, fatter shocks and all of the small tweaks that we now know exist then no-one would be saying "but it's not a proper version".

The Hotshot underwent radical technical changes within the first few months of it's release. Does that mean that the Mk1 is not a proper Hotshot? Or the Mk2?

Most other smaller variations in cars (that don't impact appearance) are arguably too small to worry about much, and in some cases it's even impossible to figure out what was "first", or if there even was a true first.

Put a new built Buggy Champ, Scorcher 2010 or Hotshot next to a 10/10 mint new built 1980's version and ask someone outside of the hobby to identify which one was over 20 years old. Do you think they would be able to tell?

The truth is that the "re-releases" are instant classics and the only reason that they are not commanding the same prices as the 80's versions is because they have not had the chance to survive 20 years without being built or driven. It has nothing to do with cosmetic differences or design tweaks.

[loaded 4]

Put a new built Buggy Champ, Scorcher 2010 or Hotshot next to a 10/10 mint new built 1980's version and ask someone outside of the hobby to identify which one was over 20 years old. Do you think they would be able to tell?

I think this comment misses the mark so much it doesn't even bear consideration in this forum. Sorry, but I couldn't agree less

Paul.

[Sayer 742]

I think this comment misses the mark so much it doesn't even bear consideration in this forum. Sorry, but I couldn't agree less

Paul.

You think they'd be able to tell the difference? really?

[loaded 4]

No, not at all, that isn't the point I was trying to make.

Would you recognise a diamond from a piece of CZ, or Moissanite? Probably not (no offence, unless you actually can, which statistically is very unlikely) but that isn't the point, is it? If it was, diamonds wouldn't get mined.

Paul.

[Wandy 1529]

I think this comment misses the mark so much it doesn't even bear consideration in this forum. Sorry, but I couldn't agree less

Paul.

LOL, that's a bit harsh. All comments are worthy of consideration....even ones as outlandish as mine.

Seriously though, I don't see where the comparison can be made between diamonds and materials that are "fake" diamonds. At the end of the day both original and re-release editions of these cars are made genuinely by Tamiya Plastic Model Company, and are made (mostly) from the same materials and design specification...hence why in reality each one is as valuable as the other.

Dont get me wrong though, I understand and appreciate why the older models carry a higher monetary and sentimental value, but the cold reality is that they are the same car with a 20 odd year gap and a few tweaks here and there to differentiate them.

[Hibernaculum 933]

That's all fair enough H, but the point I make is that regardless of what your personal preference is of a particular variant of each car the fact remains that both original & re-release are as valid as each other.

Yes, I agree of course - all models are valid They all have a place in Tamiya history.

There is a distinct whiff of snobbery around this place sometimes that if you do not own the original 1980s variant then your re-release is somehow a poor "knock off" job, hence the many "it's only the re-release" comments that frequent the forums.

I can only speak for myself I suppose. And I can understand to a degree why you feel this way, as you're a passionate fan of the re-releases. However, since I am one who doesn't buy the re-releases, let me offer a counterpoint to the snobbery suggestion.

I can't argue that there is zero snobbery among collectors.

But I will say that the snobbery behaviour is just one extreme end of the spectrum. And at the other end of the spectrum, you have another extreme - those who believe so passionately that re-releases are the same as the originals, that they seem to suggest that the originals are now pointless. And they are usually the ones to cast the first stone at people who still want the originals, because they think "Why doesn't this person just buy a re-release like me? Why does he think he is better than me? He's a snob!"

At times there has been such an evangelical fervor for the re-releases here, that anybody who said "I don't like the re-releases" in the middle of a pro-rerelease love-thread would get sort of harried by other members, to the point where their Tamiya fandom would be brought into question and so forth. It has at times, reminded me of villagers with torches.

That's silly. So, it goes both ways.

I'm not a snob, and hopefully I don't come across that way Because the truth is, we all have personal idiosyncrasies about our collections that determine which cars we like and which we don't. So in a sense, we are all snobs about the cars we don't like or don't collect. Who isn't a snob toward the "Boys Racer" series? Or the Sonic Fighter?

It's taken quite a while (and it was quite risky at first!) to convince these forums that toy grade RCs deserve to be loved too. But eventually people have come around, and no longer feel afraid to start topics about those.

Anyway, my preference is just to collect originals, because the re-releases are different in ways that I care about.

The term "re-release" is in actual fact not a particular accurate way of describing the 21st century variants of each 1980's buggy that has arrived on the scene. These cars are in fact the next Mk up from the last one that was produced back in the day, hence the Buggy Champ is in actual fact the Mk2 Rough Rider, the 2010 Scorcher is the Mk2 Scorcher and the Hotshot 2007 is the Mk3 Hotshot. The fact that there was a 20 odd year gap in between these Mk1/2/3 cars seems to have given people the liberty of writing off the latest versions as "not a true ----------".

If the Sand Scorcher & Rough Rider had been upgraded in, say 1986, with different colour chassis plate, steel UJ's, fatter shocks and all of the small tweaks that we now know exist then no-one would be saying "but it's not a proper version".

I actually agree with you - I'm happy thinking of re-releases as MK2 or MK3 versions.

But who is saying they are not proper versions? Re-releases are proper versions. They are new versions. What they are not, is proper originals. Therefore, in my mind, it doesn't have the same attraction.

I LOVE original decals, and real sponsors, with a passion. I LOVE original MSCs with a passion, because that's the way R/C was done back in the day. And just generally, I LOVE the old ways of doing things with R/C cars - old methods of engineering, with all their quirks and weaknesses and faults. I don't want a new version in which all these charming old deficiencies have been erased and improved, like the fake resistors on the Hotshot, or the moulded-to-the-body rear vision mirrors on the Sand Scorcher, or upgraded shocks...the list goes on and on.

I really like the crappy, fiddly way Tamiya used to do things - that to me, is the true experience of Tamiya from the 1980s And that is a big part of why I collect. To relive that early experience, and the whole culture of 1980s RC.

But you (I assume) and many others don't really care about that stuff, and that's ok. You are the ones Tamiya is hoping will buy the re-releases. You're happy with a 2010 spin on the 1980s, that does away with some of the charms and quirks, in favour of producing models that still look basically like the originals.

And I don't dislike the re-releases, or try to convince anyone they aren't "real". I just have no particular reason to collect them, because I'm happy hunting down and building the originals. Instead of these endless re-releases (let's face it, it's like drilling for oil - what happens when it runs out? What's the plan then?), I sincerely wish Tamiya would start creating more NEW classics - cars with the true spirit and style of the old ones, but with new designs. But it rarely happens.

Put a new built Buggy Champ, Scorcher 2010 or Hotshot next to a 10/10 mint new built 1980's version and ask someone outside of the hobby to identify which one was over 20 years old. Do you think they would be able to tell?

I think this depends on the person too though.

To a person who doesn't know AND doesn't care, they will agree with you that it's all the same.

To a person who doesn't know, but DOES care - they will see the originality argument as well.

For example, my wife is not into RC at all. She would never be able to tell the difference, as you say.

However, she collects 1st Edition novels. So she appreciates and understands the concept of owning an original release, because it's "different" and because of the feeling of knowing it was the first one to come out - at the true dawn or era of the cultural popularity of the object being collected.

As soon as I tell her all the differences between original and re-release Tamiya, she will say "Oh, you'd HAVE to get the original, wouldn't you?" - knowing that it's the one from back in the day. The first, and the one actually responsible for the popular phenomenon itself.

Think about first edition books - often the only difference between those and later editions, is a couple of lines or text (or the absence of) printed on the first page - literally. Yet try buying a first edition Harry Potter novel - they are worth thousands and thousands and thousand of dollars. The dollars involved makes collecting Tamiya look like nothing.

It's all about being original, and/or being a special thing in the brains of collectors.

It so happens that 1st and 2nd edition Tamiyas have (by comparison) much bigger differences, than in the world of 1st and 2nd edition books.

The truth is that the "re-releases" are instant classics and the only reason that they are not commanding the same prices as the 80's versions is because they have not had the chance to survive 20 years without being built or driven. It has nothing to do with cosmetic differences or design tweaks.

So in 20 years time, we should be able to see the price of the re-release Sand Scorcher equal to the price of the original Sand Scorcher (prior to the re-release).

Personally, I don't think that will happen. But who can say.

Anyway, I hope this has been helpful. I don't mean to convince anyone to agree with me, I'm just trying to explain the way different minds are working...

cheers,

H.

[HunterZero 76]

So, did anyone else have an early edition NIB Hot Shot with the 3-hole bumper?

- James

[Wandy 1529]

Well argued post H, and in actual fact we are on the same page in most respects.

I can't argue that there is zero snobbery among collectors.

But I will say that the snobbery behaviour is just one extreme end of the spectrum. And at the other end of the spectrum, you have another extreme - those who believe so passionately that re-releases are the same as the originals, that they seem to suggest that the originals are now pointless. And they are usually the ones to cast the first stone at people who still want the originals, because they think "Why doesn't this person just buy a re-release like me? Why does he think he is better than me? He's a snob!"

I would never argue that the originals are completely the same as the re-releases or suggest that the originals are pointless. I wouldn't suggest either that the monetary or sentimental value of the originals should be on a par with the re-re's.....well not at this moment in time anyway. Nor have I wondered why people would not now merely buy a re-re instead of chasing after an original. Believe me, I am as passionate about the original cars as you. I too love all of the little details that define the old models from the modern variants. The Hotshot is my all time favourite Tamiya car and my own personal Holy Grail is to own a NIB Mk1 just like the one C_Smith has unearthed. I also dearly want a new built Mk1 to go on the shelf. My reasons for this are pretty much the same as yours, ie the nostalgia it induces within me for the days of my childhood and reliving the memories of being 13 years old visiting Beatties model shop every Saturday. My hankering for a Mk1 goes a little deeper than that though ; I just think it was a better looking car than the Mk2, despite the technical flaws. However I also have owned a NIB Mk2 in recent years, built it & sold it...then bought the re-release which I have yet to build. I also own a few runners in various states of disrepair. The point I make is that I too hold the originals closer to my heart than the re-releases, but there is not really that much in it. I love the re-re's as they have their own charm and as far as I am concerned the two variants are not seperate entities. I view the situation simply as a case that Tamiya stopped the production line in the 1980's and then then decided to get it rolling again, manufacturing the exact same model in the "noughties", albeit with a few minor technical and cosmetic changes. The slight issue I take umbrage with is the lingering feeling I get that some do not believe a Scorcher 2010 to truly be a Scorcher, that the fact that a small number of minor changes effectively prevent it from being classed as the "real I am". Whilst I accept that that a 2010 car cannot compete with an original in terms of history or nostalgia - only another 20 years can do that - it can still come pretty close because it is 95% the same car, made from the same designs & materials & by the same company.

I'm not a snob, and hopefully I don't come across that way Because the truth is, we all have personal idiosyncrasies about our collections that determine which cars we like and which we don't. So in a sense, we are all snobs about the cars we don't like or don't collect.

Please don't take my "snobbery" quote too close to heart, it was certainly not meant to be a dig at any TC member in particular and nor was it meant to be taken too seriously. It was a just a general observation that there is an ever-so-slight dismissive attitude to the re-re's from time to time. Your right though, it's Human nature to be snobby and competitive about the things that we do & own and I'd be fibbing if I said I don't do it myself.

But you (I assume) and many others don't really care about that stuff, and that's ok. You are the ones Tamiya is hoping will buy the re-releases. You're happy with a 2010 spin on the 1980s, that does away with some of the charms and quirks, in favour of producing models that still look basically like the originals.

No, as I said above, I do care about that stuff. I guess the point that I make is that I think a re-re should get more credit when compared to an original. If an original gets 10/10 for invoking feelings of nostalgia then a re-re should get 9/10. I think some people might give them less than that.

So in 20 years time, we should be able to see the price of the re-release Sand Scorcher equal to the price of the original Sand Scorcher (prior to the re-release).Personally, I don't think that will happen. But who can say.

Must admit that I firmly believe as the years go by the prices will get closer, and people will largely forget about the small differences. You only have to look at how a Top Force re-re has soared in value since it was discontinued to observe how the same may happen with re-re SRBs.

[darthfury78 0]

Yes, I agree of course - all models are valid They all have a place in Tamiya history.

I can only speak for myself I suppose. And I can understand to a degree why you feel this way, as you're a passionate fan of the re-releases. However, since I am one who doesn't buy the re-releases, let me offer a counterpoint to the snobbery suggestion.

I can't argue that there is zero snobbery among collectors.

But I will say that the snobbery behaviour is just one extreme end of the spectrum. And at the other end of the spectrum, you have another extreme - those who believe so passionately that re-releases are the same as the originals, that they seem to suggest that the originals are now pointless. And they are usually the ones to cast the first stone at people who still want the originals, because they think "Why doesn't this person just buy a re-release like me? Why does he think he is better than me? He's a snob!"

At times there has been such an evangelical fervor for the re-releases here, that anybody who said "I don't like the re-releases" in the middle of a pro-rerelease love-thread would get sort of harried by other members, to the point where their Tamiya fandom would be brought into question and so forth. It has at times, reminded me of villagers with torches.

That's silly. So, it goes both ways.

I'm not a snob, and hopefully I don't come across that way Because the truth is, we all have personal idiosyncrasies about our collections that determine which cars we like and which we don't. So in a sense, we are all snobs about the cars we don't like or don't collect. Who isn't a snob toward the "Boys Racer" series? Or the Sonic Fighter?

It's taken quite a while (and it was quite risky at first!) to convince these forums that toy grade RCs deserve to be loved too. But eventually people have come around, and no longer feel afraid to start topics about those.

Anyway, my preference is just to collect originals, because the re-releases are different in ways that I care about.

I actually agree with you - I'm happy thinking of re-releases as MK2 or MK3 versions.

But who is saying they are not proper versions? Re-releases are proper versions. They are new versions. What they are not, is proper originals. Therefore, in my mind, it doesn't have the same attraction.

I LOVE original decals, and real sponsors, with a passion. I LOVE original MSCs with a passion, because that's the way R/C was done back in the day. And just generally, I LOVE the old ways of doing things with R/C cars - old methods of engineering, with all their quirks and weaknesses and faults. I don't want a new version in which all these charming old deficiencies have been erased and improved, like the fake resistors on the Hotshot, or the moulded-to-the-body rear vision mirrors on the Sand Scorcher, or upgraded shocks...the list goes on and on.

I really like the crappy, fiddly way Tamiya used to do things - that to me, is the true experience of Tamiya from the 1980s And that is a big part of why I collect. To relive that early experience, and the whole culture of 1980s RC.

But you (I assume) and many others don't really care about that stuff, and that's ok. You are the ones Tamiya is hoping will buy the re-releases. You're happy with a 2010 spin on the 1980s, that does away with some of the charms and quirks, in favour of producing models that still look basically like the originals.

And I don't dislike the re-releases, or try to convince anyone they aren't "real". I just have no particular reason to collect them, because I'm happy hunting down and building the originals. Instead of these endless re-releases (let's face it, it's like drilling for oil - what happens when it runs out? What's the plan then?), I sincerely wish Tamiya would start creating more NEW classics - cars with the true spirit and style of the old ones, but with new designs. But it rarely happens.

I think this depends on the person too though.

To a person who doesn't know AND doesn't care, they will agree with you that it's all the same.

To a person who doesn't know, but DOES care - they will see the originality argument as well.

For example, my wife is not into RC at all. She would never be able to tell the difference, as you say.

However, she collects 1st Edition novels. So she appreciates and understands the concept of owning an original release, because it's "different" and because of the feeling of knowing it was the first one to come out - at the true dawn or era of the cultural popularity of the object being collected.

As soon as I tell her all the differences between original and re-release Tamiya, she will say "Oh, you'd HAVE to get the original, wouldn't you?" - knowing that it's the one from back in the day. The first, and the one actually responsible for the popular phenomenon itself.

Think about first edition books - often the only difference between those and later editions, is a couple of lines or text (or the absence of) printed on the first page - literally. Yet try buying a first edition Harry Potter novel - they are worth thousands and thousands and thousand of dollars. The dollars involved makes collecting Tamiya look like nothing.

It's all about being original, and/or being a special thing in the brains of collectors.

It so happens that 1st and 2nd edition Tamiyas have (by comparison) much bigger differences, than in the world of 1st and 2nd edition books.

So in 20 years time, we should be able to see the price of the re-release Sand Scorcher equal to the price of the original Sand Scorcher (prior to the re-release).

Personally, I don't think that will happen. But who can say.

Anyway, I hope this has been helpful. I don't mean to convince anyone to agree with me, I'm just trying to explain the way different minds are working...

cheers,

H.

Hi Hiber,

Could you take a moment to read my message:

Daishin

[loaded 4]

My sealed Hotshot isn't an early issue Hotshot, but a regular one with regular bumper.

Paul.

[c_smith 0]

Is it still a sealed Hotshot?

[loaded 4]

That is a loaded question

Paul.

[Wandy 1529]

My sealed Hotshot isn't an early issue Hotshot, but a regular one with regular bumper.

Paul.

I wouldn't be surprised if C_Smith's proved to be the only Mk1 out there TBH.

[sideshow 0]

i have a hotshot from 1985 which ahs been refurbished and hopped up

it has orig front bumper with 3 holes

i also have a new rerelease 2 years old which has ben hopped up even more

it has nothing in front bar where 3 holes were on orig

its just flat black plastic

u want me to check any other comparison

i have both car son my desk slowly tidying them up

[Wandy 1529]

i have a hotshot from 1985 which ahs been refurbished and hopped up

it has orig front bumper with 3 holes

i also have a new rerelease 2 years old which has ben hopped up even more

it has nothing in front bar where 3 holes were on orig

its just flat black plastic

u want me to check any other comparison

i have both car son my desk slowly tidying them up

There are still quite a few used & restored Mk1's knocking about here on TC and ebay. There is currently only one known genuine NIB Mk1 though and a couple of new builts, as far as I am aware....those being owned by c_smith and moosey