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Racing by post - Round 11 track is up!

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1 minute ago, Superluminal said:

You wouldnt initially think understeer would be too much of an issue on a 2wd buggy!!

LOL, I had the opposite when running it on tarmac, damned thing turned too quickly and tightly for me to cope..... But yeah, the understeer is very noticeable on the muddy grass when compared to the Thundershot in tight turns.

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12 hours ago, Superluminal said:

You wouldnt initially think understeer would be too much of an issue on a 2wd buggy!!

On the contrary, particularly on the Grasshopper/Hornet chassis there's loads of understeer, up until you hit the sweet spot with rear wheel speed to get it to kick around. On round 6 I was starting my Scandinavian Flick at the middle marker and coming into the far hairpin sideways in a 4-wheel slide, then just rotating the last 90ish degrees with the throttle and powering out.

@mud4fun I was thinking about this more and perhaps like the Hornet, your rear tires are just TOO grippy compared to the fronts? I know you're planning to get some new front tires, but maybe in the meantime put on a halfway knackered set of rears and see how you get on?

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18 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

On the contrary, particularly on the Grasshopper/Hornet chassis there's loads of understeer, up until you hit the sweet spot with rear wheel speed to get it to kick around.

@mud4fun I was thinking about this more and perhaps like the Hornet, your rear tires are just TOO grippy compared to the fronts? I know you're planning to get some new front tires, but maybe in the meantime put on a halfway knackered set of rears and see how you get on?

Great minds think alike!!! :D honestly, I was having those exact same thought earlier. With the Cougar running very grippy full spiked rear tyres AND being so new,  it could be that the rear geared diff is still quite tight (especially as it is an oil filled diff with what looks like syrup!) and consequently I'm getting similar understeer to that of an SRB with no rear diff?

However, I have actually placed an order with modelsport today for a whole range of front tyres to try and that should be here tomorrow or wednesday. I have ordered full pin spikes, mini pins (in two compoiunds), studded and stud/rib. I reckon one of those types should at least work better than the current fronts which are more designed for carpet/astro. The rib/stud combination tyres are very old skool - 1980's style, not really designed for Cougar, they are a CAT tyre however I have a suspicion they may work well.

I'll keep you posted. :)

I was out again at lunchtime and after work today doing more practise (the advantage with having the track on the back lawn) but still no improvement on the Cougar or Avante however the thundershot got one more lap so it is now 6 laps ahead........this is getting silly! (Lawn is a quagmire, thick gloopy mud on 50% of the track and wet grass on the other 50%).

The main problem is that the Cougar and Avante2001 are running so wide that they are actually riding up onto the hardwood sleeper that edges the lawn, which is slippery as badword at this time of year and promptly sliding off it down the 6" drop onto the gravel path (the main straight for our garden track). This means I lose a laps worth of time walking over to pick the damned things up to throw them back onto the lawn. Don't think I've managed a single 5 min attempt yet where they haven't done this at least once. So there is at least 1 or 2 laps or improvement to come just be getting the front tyres to bite at the very least.

 

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David & Goliath fronted up to the start line today as the driver suddenly realized that Round 7 fits in the garden at home 😁. (After the grass was cut of course!!.)

A762FC05-B56B-4003-8612-105BFC17457A.jpg

I ran the Wild One on my Buggy Champ wheels first then tried it on its stock wheels. Funny thing is soon as I took off on the stock wheels the difference  was immediately noticeable, they just didn’t turn as tight as with the BC wheels on. 2 laps difference between the wheels. The stock wheels held a blast down the straight better, but were fairly useless around the many tight turns.

It must be one of the reasons why people prefer a FAV to a Wild One? 

A fun afternoon for an Off Road stage.

Looking forward to a tarmac or concrete session with the M08 Mini. Maybe (but unlikely) some bits for my M05 will turn up in time to run that to for a comparison.

D21816F0-6E3F-4A31-9F27-1B83157AE1E9.jpg

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14 hours ago, El Gecko said:

On the contrary, particularly on the Grasshopper/Hornet chassis there's loads of understeer, up until you hit the sweet spot with rear wheel speed to get it to kick around. On round 6 I was starting my Scandinavian Flick at the middle marker and coming into the far hairpin sideways in a 4-wheel slide, then just rotating the last 90ish degrees with the throttle and powering out.

@mud4fun I was thinking about this more and perhaps like the Hornet, your rear tires are just TOO grippy compared to the fronts? I know you're planning to get some new front tires, but maybe in the meantime put on a halfway knackered set of rears and see how you get on?

I'll be trying something that I've wanted to do since I saw his Video 5 years ago.... 

I'm getting a Hornet, and fitting AmPro Engineering's Double Wishbone Front Suspension Kit to it. My experience in real Racing already knows that DWB beats a simple Swing Arm any day for cornering grip! 

I'll report my findings here, but I already feel positive about it. It will also add well needed WEIGHT to the Front of this Classic! 

Since rere's are so cheap and plentiful still, I have no qualms about hacking up a classic. 😉

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7 hours ago, Carmine A said:

I'll be trying something that I've wanted to do since I saw his Video 5 years ago.... 

I'm getting a Hornet, and fitting AmPro Engineering's Double Wishbone Front Suspension Kit to it. My experience in real Racing already knows that DWB beats a simple Swing Arm any day for cornering grip! 

I'll report my findings here, but I already feel positive about it. It will also add well needed WEIGHT to the Front of this Classic! 

Since rere's are so cheap and plentiful still, I have no qualms about hacking up a classic. 😉

Now that I've got my vintage Hornet running again, it will be interesting to see how it fares against its "properly suspended" brother :D

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39 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

Now that I've got my vintage Hornet running again, it will be interesting to see how it fares against its "properly suspended" brother :D

I'm looking forward to it myself!! It WON'T beat my RC10.... But it should at least STEER when I turn the Wheel!!! 

I remember my first Grasshopper, fitted a 540 Silver Can, and it WOULDN'T Steer on Throttle!!! Off Throttle, the Front End would collapse, and it would roll over!! 

I learned that the ONLY good upgrade for a Grasshopper was a 390 Motor. 😉  Brushless 390s work well too.

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Just had a first bash at round 7 with the TT02. Feels like most of the lap is spent at full lock! A tidy line is even more crucial than normal for good consistent laps. Great fun as ever.

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2 hours ago, ryback said:

Just had a first bash at round 7 with the TT02. Feels like most of the lap is spent at full lock! A tidy line is even more crucial than normal for good consistent laps. Great fun as ever.

We've been having great fun. It is my 2nd favourite track design after the round 2 design. That long diagonal straight is really making a huge difference to our lap times. We can all get pretty tight cornering but not all can get power down early enough or for long enough on that straight or apply power around the hairpins.  We now have 10 laps separating our slowest to fastest buggies? I think that is the biggest gap we've had for our buggies, only time we've seen equal or worse was when running crawlers and monster trucks too. I currently have the Cougar and Thundershot slogging it out for top spot, only 0.25 seconds a lap difference (average) and both have got fastest laps below 6 seconds. The Thundershot currently holds the fastest lap by 0.5 second but the Cougar is closing fast and the cougar has the most laps by one lap over the Thundershot. More setup changes to try on Cougar and Thundershot tomorrow :) This is close!

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Nice warmer day today so we've been out running a good few of our cars on the lawn. So far on this round we've run these.

1088026371_round7_cars(1).thumb.jpg.93d0cee01533fa5a304fe2286486fc07.jpg

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Had a couple of runs today. Tried out a TC01, which was disappointing so I didn’t even wire up the transponder. Too low and too stiff for the surface I think, not very pleasant to drive. 
Much more successful was my XV01 rally with Rush tyres on. Much more composed than last week’s effort with the TB05, and close to the lap count of the Optima. 

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Got some on-road laps in today for Round 7.

M-05 is still in stock trim until it's Hop Ups arrive. I swapped out its shiny shelf wheels for some runners, first time that I've actually run it properly. I had to give the steering a tweak so it would make it round the tight turns. Even with that done the M-08 would still turn on a dime off the power better than the M-05.

Once I'd completed some laps with the M-05, the Tx started beeping about low voltage, so had to nip to the shop for some fresh new batteries.

Being a compact track I also dropped down to a 18t pinion from a 19t in the M-08, and with the help of the new sticky tyres and a less aggressive trigger finger the back end was much better behaved but still lots of fun. This was a great circuit for the M-08 😃

The Buggy Champ tyres are also much better for the Wild One than Scorcher tyres on tarmac.

Very enjoyable day...

5E69F36A-BDE9-449F-B70C-DA6BC02685BE.md.

 

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23 minutes ago, Re-Bugged said:

Being a compact track I also dropped down to a 18t pinion from a 19t in the M-08, and with the help of the new sticky tyres and a less aggressive trigger finger the back end was much better behaved but still lots of fun. This was a great circuit for the M-08 

Yes, I swapped to the lowest pinion size on my Thundershot and ran a 9.89 FDR in the Cougar too. However I left the Avante2001 with the 19t pinion. All three running same motor and 2S. All three are within a lap of each other so it didn't make as much difference as I thought it would EXCEPT when I came to charge the packs again after use. The Avante2001 had used nearly double the battery capacity compared with the Cougar and Thundershot. Wet muddy grass saps power and the smaller pinions compensate nicely.

The biggest difference was tyre choice. After swapping the Avante2001 onto narrow mini spikes instead of wide full spikes it gained 9 laps. The Cougar also gained a similar number when switching from a dry astro front tyre to a mini spike. Front tyre choice proving critical on this round 7 track when running on wet grass.

The poor DT02 has now been left trailing because it doesn't have enough weight over the front end, even with same front tyre as Cougar it is still too tail heavy and we have struggled to get it to turn as tight as it could unless we pretty much stop before turning. It will not carry power through such a tight turn without understeering. 

 

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4 hours ago, mud4fun said:

......The poor DT02 has now been left trailing because it doesn't have enough weight over the front end, even with same front tyre as Cougar it is still too tail heavy and we have struggled to get it to turn as tight as it could unless we pretty much stop before turning. It will not carry power through such a tight turn without understeering. 

Ian.... I've always had the same problem with my DT-02.  If I may offer a suggestion... 

These actually respond pretty well to about 1/4 to 1/3lb of weight stuck to the inside of the Chassis. I just used stick on Wheel Weights. Cheap as Chips at the local Auto Parts Store, and easily reversible if you really don't like it. 

That and Pro-Line Front Tyres made a very noticeable difference!! 😉

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Thanks @Carmine A we are going to try adding some weight. Initially the DT02 did quite well on the first few postal racing attempts even compared to the Cougar. However with tyre and setup changes my Thundershot, Avante2001/Egress and Cougar all surged ahead and are now 12 laps ahead.

We tried various setup changes and even tested all the new Schumacher 2WD front tyres on the DT02 but to no avail. I guess if there is no weight on the front end it makes no difference what tyres or camber etc you choose because the tyres are barely in contact with the ground once any sort of throttle is applied.

This has got worse since fitting the Reedy 19T spec motor. The DT02 is now pretty damned quick in a straight line but yeah, we need it to turn tighter under throttle. 

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@mud4fun .... The DT-02 is plagued with an Old School Buggy problem.

Not only is the Front End very light - but the Gearbox and Motor are BEHIND the Rear Wheels!! 😖 Much like the Porsche 911... Unmodified this causes Handling NIGHTMARES. 

We've experienced this in Buggy Racing since the first RC10 Gold Pan. That Metal Chassis gave it such balance, that we immediately noticed the nightmare created when going to the first Carbon Graphite Chassis!! We added some Ballast to the Front, set up the Caster and Camber to extreme values, and fitted the softest Front Springs possible. This is what sorted rear Motor Buggies from 1990-on. 😊 

The DT-03 has fully adjustable Front Suspension. The DT-02 needs those Turnbuckles fitted.

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1 hour ago, Carmine A said:

@mud4fun .... The DT-02 is plagued with an Old School Buggy problem.

Not only is the Front End very light - but the Gearbox and Motor are BEHIND the Rear Wheels!! 😖 Much like the Porsche 911... Unmodified this causes Handling NIGHTMARES. 

We've experienced this in Buggy Racing since the first RC10 Gold Pan. That Metal Chassis gave it such balance, that we immediately noticed the nightmare created when going to the first Carbon Graphite Chassis!! We added some Ballast to the Front, set up the Caster and Camber to extreme values, and fitted the softest Front Springs possible. This is what sorted rear Motor Buggies from 1990-on. 😊 

The DT-03 has fully adjustable Front Suspension. The DT-02 needs those Turnbuckles fitted.

Yes, middle Mudlet loves her DT02 and I have to say that the Sand Viper body is a nice OLD SKOOL style AND the little buggy handles pretty well on larger areas and goes pretty quick with that Reedy in there. However very tight turns under power are not great. I am going to pinch some of the lead roofing sheet that I have wrapped around the lower arms on my DIY Crawler and stick them up front on the DT02. That should improve things. Anything that gets weight onto those front tyres while cornering under power is essential.

On the straights and in more general (non postal racing) conditions the DT02 turns pretty tight and is a match for even the best of my buggies. This round however, like many postal racing rounds, requires very good turning and the more throttle you can use while under full lock the faster your lap times will be, by a significant margin. 

For the first time ever in postal racing (with maybe the exception of round 2), our highest powered buggies are all in top spot by a very wide margin over the lower powered buggies. We have not seen this in any previous round. So the top 3 spots are all the 33K rpm Dyna Run Super Touring on 2S LiPo, the lowest entry is the silver can on 7.2v - by a HUGE difference in laps and the midfield are the sport turned, torque tuned and 19T Reedy. Our current leaderboard is pretty much a perfect correlation of lap count to overall power. Not seen that before and certainly not by such a wide margin. 

It is curious, and my perception may be wrong here, but it seems that some club racers seem to view the postal racing track layouts as almost laughable because they are only 6-8 seconds lap times and are tiny compared to some of the big club racing tracks. However IMHO the postal racing tracks are damned tricky and require a whole new set of skills and car setup. I have a garden track that is at least twice as large as most postal racing designs and in the past it was even bigger, up to 20 seconds a lap. The mudlets and I are currently designing and planning to re-landscape the garden to achieve a 25 second garden track. However in my experience larger tracks are often just very long version of the postal racing tracks. So other than the longer straights, the tighter sections are pretty comparable to the sort of driving skills required on postal racing tracks. Big tracks often just favour high powered buggies (I include myself here as my buggies do better the longer and faster the track).

To truly get major gains in lap counts on postal racing tracks you need a car that can power around corners, has good balance and produces consistent laps to within 0.25 seconds per lap. There is no margin for error. One sloppy lap can ruin the attempt. Whereas on a large track you can often recover from one bad corner by going a bit faster on other long straights etc. We have found that setup changes that produce 0.1 second per lap improvements have far more effect on postal racing tracks than on full size tracks so if anything this is actually trickier and more competitive and requires good car setup to eek out the extra laps!!!

edit: if anything I would say these postal racing tracks accurately match a real world race on a full size track. As an example I would say that some of my buggies are capable of top speeds in excess of 2x or even 3x faster than many of @jupitertwo's, @ryback's or @TurnipJF's round winning cars BUT they beat me due to superior driving skill. They can drive lap after lap for 5 mins far more consistently than I can. So it is irrelevant that I can get a marginally faster single lap, ultimately it comes down to consistency under race pressure and I fail every time.... LOL. IMHO if we were all to race on a full size 25 second lap time track we would probably end up with the same result!? well OK, maybe I wouldn't get beaten by a grasshopper but you know what I mean :)

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in fact, going on my LapMonitor lap data, I'd say I get maybe 2-3 laps per 5 min race that are excellent lap times but that is followed by 30 garbage laps......... I suspect if I compared my data to TurnipJF's or Jupitertwo's etc than I'd cry as mine show variances from say 5.5 seconds to 7.5 seconds per lap within a single race attempt and then the occasional disastrous 20 seconds when I fell off the track LOL

EDIT: in fact, the bl**dy lapmonitor race data downloads are damned depressing. Just when I am full of joy at beating my daughters I read the lapmonitor data and find that my race spec buggy with a motor 3x times the rpm and a battery of significantly more voltage than my youngest daughters silver can and base spec nimh only managed to beat her by an average of 0.3 seconds per lap...... :(

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3 hours ago, Carmine A said:

@mud4fun .... The DT-02 is plagued with an Old School Buggy problem.

Not only is the Front End very light - but the Gearbox and Motor are BEHIND the Rear Wheels!! 😖 Much like the Porsche 911... Unmodified this causes Handling NIGHTMARES. 

If you add a 13.5 Brushless with 2s LiPo, you can make it believe it’s a Lunchbox though....

E62CEAE7-8909-483F-8A74-D64265D37E2D.gif

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2 hours ago, mud4fun said:

in fact, going on my LapMonitor lap data, I'd say I get maybe 2-3 laps per 5 min race that are excellent lap times but that is followed by 30 garbage laps......... I suspect if I compared my data to TurnipJF's or Jupitertwo's etc than I'd cry as mine show variances from say 5.5 seconds to 7.5 seconds per lap within a single race attempt and then the occasional disastrous 20 seconds when I fell off the track LOL

EDIT: in fact, the bl**dy lapmonitor race data downloads are damned depressing. Just when I am full of joy at beating my daughters I read the lapmonitor data and find that my race spec buggy with a motor 3x times the rpm and a battery of significantly more voltage than my youngest daughters silver can and base spec nimh only managed to beat her by an average of 0.3 seconds per lap...... :(

I thought I’d have a look at my winning race from Round 6, and I would have to agree on both the consistency and the value in the kit on these short tracks. Both @ryback and my TT02S (and I expect @TurnipJF’s if he’d run it) are at the top of the table, and my TB05 only pips them by one lap (or less than a second to get that extra lap as you’ll see from below). Both of those are running Torque Tuned too.

Looking at the deltas, slowest lap: 7.51s (lap 1) to quickest lap 6.22s (lap 28), with an average of 6.80s. 

I think the surface must place a big part here, as it’s level, consistent and I’ve plenty space to not worry about hitting anything. If I clip a disc it doesn’t throw the car too much, so it’s just getting in a rhythm. I also don’t have any commentators to put me off like I imagine you do!

Here’s the data from Round 6:

 20 December 2020 at 13:07:26

 Timing data provided by LapMonitor lap counting system (https://lapmonitor.com)


    Driver     | Laps  |    Time    |  Best Lap  
=================================================
TB05           |    45 |    5:06.28 |    0:06.22


TB05:
Lap     1:   0:07.51   0:07.51
Lap     2:   0:07.30   0:14.81
Lap     3:   0:07.00   0:21.82
Lap     4:   0:07.18   0:29.00
Lap     5:   0:07.02   0:36.02
Lap     6:   0:07.47   0:43.50
Lap     7:   0:06.92   0:50.42
Lap     8:   0:06.84   0:57.26
Lap     9:   0:07.02   1:04.28
Lap    10:   0:07.23   1:11.52
Lap    11:   0:07.06   1:18.58
Lap    12:   0:06.95   1:25.54
Lap    13:   0:06.63   1:32.17
Lap    14:   0:06.80   1:38.97
Lap    15:   0:06.49   1:45.47
Lap    16:   0:06.84   1:52.32
Lap    17:   0:07.20   1:59.52
Lap    18:   0:06.85   2:06.37
Lap    19:   0:06.61   2:12.99
Lap    20:   0:06.59   2:19.58
Lap    21:   0:06.57   2:26.16
Lap    22:   0:06.46   2:32.62
Lap    23:   0:06.49   2:39.11
Lap    24:   0:07.32   2:46.44
Lap    25:   0:07.00   2:53.44
Lap    26:   0:06.57   3:00.01
Lap    27:   0:06.50   3:06.52
Lap    28:   0:06.22   3:12.75
Lap    29:   0:06.68   3:19.44
Lap    30:   0:06.80   3:26.24
Lap    31:   0:06.50   3:32.75
Lap    32:   0:06.46   3:39.21
Lap    33:   0:06.81   3:46.02
Lap    34:   0:06.87   3:52.90
Lap    35:   0:06.81   3:59.72
Lap    36:   0:06.88   4:06.60
Lap    37:   0:06.25   4:12.85
Lap    38:   0:06.45   4:19.31
Lap    39:   0:06.48   4:25.79
Lap    40:   0:07.06   4:32.86
Lap    41:   0:06.48   4:39.34
Lap    42:   0:07.07   4:46.42
Lap    43:   0:06.45   4:52.88
Lap    44:   0:06.28   4:59.16
Lap    45:   0:07.12   5:06.28

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That reminds me, I need to get a transponder fitted to the Cougar. Timing it on the phone at the moment which is a PITA. Especially as this involves roping in a Mudlet for the task and in freezing cold weather it is not easy to drag them away from the fire. They are definitely fair weather drivers! :D

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34 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

That reminds me, I need to get a transponder fitted to the Cougar. Timing it on the phone at the moment which is a PITA. Especially as this involves roping in a Mudlet for the task and in freezing cold weather it is not easy to drag them away from the fire. They are definitely fair weather drivers! :D

I found these folks had some in the UK: https://www.pbmracing.co.uk/products/lap-monitor/

The makers aren’t shipping to the UK right now last I checked.

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43 minutes ago, jupitertwo said:

I found these folks had some in the UK: https://www.pbmracing.co.uk/products/lap-monitor/

The makers aren’t shipping to the UK right now last I checked.

Fab, thanks, just ordered one!

Ideally I need that Cougar mount too but they are out of stock, will have to knock up something from a bit of bent alloy plate.

I don't think the French manufacturer is playing politics. I tried placing an order through them but I can't checkout because UK is removed from list. They ship to all sorts of countries worldwide so I see no reason that they can't ship to UK post brexit. Hopefully it will be just that they need to get their accounting system and website updated to handle the changes to the tax and customs rules?

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@jupitertwo here is a little 10 lap snippet of one of my early attempts at round 7 in my Thundershot on wet muddy grass. You can clearly see my utterly diabolical 'consistency'..... :lol:

Thankfully with more practise, setup changes and a change in front tyres my later attempts have been far more consistent. The Cougar is my most consistent although oddly never quite achieving the fastest lap, the Thundershot gets that every time*, usually just before crashing into a plant pot......

  • Lap 28: 3:39.66 0:06.71
  • Lap 29: 3:47.62 0:07.96
  • Lap 30: 3:55.57 0:07.95
  • Lap 31: 4:04.96 0:09.39
  • Lap 32: 4:13.97 0:09.01
  • Lap 33: 4:21.19 0:07.22
  • Lap 34: 4:28.70 0:07.51
  • Lap 35: 4:37.56 0:08.86
  • Lap 36: 4:46.18 0:08.62
  • Lap 37: 4:54.62 0:08.44
  • Lap 38: 5:01.18 0:06.56

See the issue, nearly 3 seconds difference between my better laps and my worst!

*the Thundershot is a handful to drive, ultimately quicker than the Cougar but almost impossible to keep under control for 5 mins without making mistakes whereas the Cougar is a far more consistent and you could say less exciting drive. They both end up with the same lap counts but after driving 5 mins with the Thundershot you feel exhausted, with the Cougar you feel like you've just been out for a gentle stroll......

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What we've also noticed on round 7 is that racing line is critical. If we go in too tight to a marker we come out of the turn too wide which not only ruins the line into the next marker but sometime the following two markers! This means one silly mistake ruins the entire race because middle Mudlet is just one lap behind me when driving the same car, so we are talking 0.5 seconds between us over 5 mins of race.

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