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TurnipJF

Racing by post - Round 44 track is up. We're going back to Vålerbanen!

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15 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

The track direction was chosen on purpose to add to the challenge factor because, as you say, there is something a bit more challenging about going anti-clockwise. Possibly because most club tracks seem to run clockwise in my experience.

Indeed - 9 times out of 10 our club track was clockwise! OK, thanks for the clarification. Anti-clockwise it is then. 👍

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The Track has left and right turns.... In a way may negate the overall direction. It's going to be a test of Handling and grip (GULP!) 😲 

I'm really looking forward to it.

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20 minutes ago, Carmine A said:

The Track has left and right turns.... In a way may negate the overall direction. It's going to be a test of Handling and grip (GULP!) 😲 

I'm really looking forward to it.

The mudlets will be going to do their first practise session on the new track design this evening, will be interesting to hear how they got on.

The problem with my buggies is that unless they are lowered to the deck, high grip results in grip rolls..... probably because I have an inability to judge the braking properly on bends...... :lol:

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@mud4fun That's the only thing that is really an advantage of using Crawler Drag Brake on my On-Road Cars.... Braking just HAPPENS when you let off the Throttle. The Hobbywing WP1060 ESC has a notoriously weak Brake - for Crawlers - but just enough for a TC or M05 not to flip it on its Roof!! 

It's one less thing for this old Brain to have to sort whilst running!! 😜

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40 minutes ago, Carmine A said:

The Track has left and right turns.... In a way may negate the overall direction. It's going to be a test of Handling and grip (GULP!) 😲 

I'm really looking forward to it.

True enough - I guess it's just a 'what you're used to' thing. And i suspect you're correct. How quickly you can get around those corners, with facing distorting acceleration in between, will be key. As you say, handling and grip. Oh dear...

19 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

The mudlets will be going to do their first practise session on the new track design this evening, will be interesting to hear how they got on.

The problem with my buggies is that unless they are lowered to the deck, high grip results in grip rolls..... probably because I have an inability to judge the braking properly on bends...... :lol:

Let us know how you get on so I can copy, er, I mean learn from how you do 🙂

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A question for the proper racers amongst us I think but in my mind a buggy 'technically' should be able to corner faster than a touring car?

Assuming the buggy and touring car both weigh the same, all battery and electronics fitted low down so roughly similar CoG and both used tyres of similar grip then the buggy with a 2 inch wider track surely must be able to achieve faster cornering speed? or am I missing something?

I would guess though that the 2 inch wider track means larger turning circle which on a tight track like round 3 would cause issues as you will not be able to get a good line to the next turn point as you've gone too wide?

If my assumptions are correct then lowering our buggies to 10mm ground clearance, keeping weight low down, fitting grippy tarmac tyres and using a short wheelbase and ideally having a centre diff would be the best option for buggies trying to do round 3? I'm guessing my Avante2001/Vanquish with their longer wheelbases are at a disadvantage over the slightly shorter wheelbase Thundershot but they do have a centre diff. I guess we shall have to see which performs best.

 

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@mud4fun it's been proven over the years that 257-260mm Wheelbase is the best for Track cornering....  Many Buggies fall into this category. 

You are correct in the assumption that Buggies, with a wider stance, COULD perform better in turns.  I once tried Foam Racing Tyres on a DF-02 Buggy, and my Track times would have qualified on the bottom of the top 10 qualifiers in a TC Race.

BUT there's two things difficult to mitigate... 1) Proper TC Cars have a near 50/50 weight bias - some having even more front weight. 

Buggies generally have a 25/75 to 30/70 weight bias. Mid-Motor Buggies fair slightly better. 

2) TC Cars have STIFF, short Springs and little Suspension movement. Buggies have long, soft Springs (EXCEPT stock Tamiya!) and plush Dampers with long travel. Buggies have a lot of Body roll in turns, to stay better planted on uneven soft surfaces.

The Suspension CAN be lowered and stiffened. Your Buggies should come with Swaybars - which can be maximised to control roll.... 

The weight bias issues are harder to deal with. I believe all of yours are Mid-Rear Motored. That can help, but excessive Understeer might be a tough thing to overcome. 

You could easily enough LOWER the CoG... But moving it forward will be more difficult.

NOT saying that it CAN'T be done! It will be an interesting exercise in Physics. I'd start with short Springs and Foam Tyres, for the most grip possible, and work from there. 😉

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I think as Carmine says, the key difference is suspension stiffness and geometry. Buggies are designed to be a bit of a jack of all trades, where as TCs are just designed to go fast, be that in a straight line or round corners. Being lower and having stiffer suspension, less shock travel and different geometry means they can also corner much flatter, with minimal body/chassis roll.

This is why I'm looking forward to the round with jumps, table tops and possibly a water feature or two. Level the playing field a bit 😁.

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1 hour ago, Carmine A said:

BUT there's two things difficult to mitigate... 1) Proper TC Cars have a near 50/50 weight bias - some having even more front weight. 

Buggies generally have a 25/75 to 30/70 weight bias. Mid-Motor Buggies fair slightly better. 

Thanks @Carmine A

I was curious and weighed each corner of the two buggies I intend to use for round 3, in full race trim with batteries.

I used 3 blocks of the same height as small flat digital scales to support the other three wheels while I measured. Not that accurate but it must give some indication and going on this it seems the weight distribution is better than you thought. Clearly you can't just add all these up to get the weight of the car as these figures when added up come to a bit more than the actual weight, so this method is not 100% perfect but can't be that far off?

Avante2001 corner weights: (I work this out as F/R weight distribution = 43/57)

  • Front Left: 323g
  • Front Right: 386g
  • Rear Left: 473g (mid longitudinal motor this side)
  • Rear Right: 450g

  Thundershot 'Stig Eater' corner weights: (I work this out as F/R weight distribution = 46/54)

  • Front Left: 404g
  • Front Right: 474g
  • Rear Left: 473g
  • Rear Right: 540g (mid/rear transverse motor this side)

The thundershot has been lowered (12mm clearance under front diff, 15mm under rear diff), new shorter shocks fitted, stiffer springs fitted and the battery, servo, receiver and ESC are low in chassis. Tyres now swapped to tarmac/carpet tyres. Whether this makes a jot of difference I don't know but figured that on paper it should work?! :D

  • PS. Curious to note that the left rear tyre on both buggies recorded the exact same weight!
  • PPS. The cross weight balance is also pretty damned good on the avante at 48/52
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@mud4fun the weight difference between left and right could just be the variance in spring tension... 

I thought the Avante (and Cousins) would have a better weight bias - because the Motor and Gearbox are FORWARD of the Rear Axle. I did say that they would fare a little better, but that was better than expected!! With some Suspension tweaking, you may do well, Sir!! 😉

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2 hours ago, Carmine A said:

@mud4fun the weight difference between left and right could just be the variance in spring tension... 

I thought the Avante (and Cousins) would have a better weight bias - because the Motor and Gearbox are FORWARD of the Rear Axle. I did say that they would fare a little better, but that was better than expected!! With some Suspension tweaking, you may do well, Sir!! 😉

Yeah, I was surprised myself though at how close they were to 50/50, especially the Thundershot. I honestly thought it would be closer to what you suggested too.

I guess the above weights are using LiPo so that will have considerably changed the front/rear distribution on the Thundershot more than on the Avante because the transverse battery in the Thundershot is more to the back. If I'd have used a heavy NiMh then it would be closer to 30/70 but with the very lightweight 4000mah LiPo (200g lighter than the NiMH) it has helped get closer to the 50/50.

The Avante doesn't really gain much in weight distribution from using LiPo because its battery is longitudinal, if anything it has probably made it worse. If you imagine a heavy NiMh sat up the centre of the lower deck the front/rear bias would be much closer to 50/50. Switching to LiPo has now moved the bias to the rear.

I was also surprised the the Avante was worse than the thundershot in weight distribution, however if you pick the two buggies up you do notice the Avante is noticably heavier at the back, in part remember because it has the wing, wing bracket (and they are heavy little alloy cones and wire mount) plus the alloy shocks are right at the back and the heavy center diff assembly, motor mounting plate and heavy metal rear suspension braces are all aft of center. However, the Avante2001 jumps really well and lands on its rear tyres or flat more often than it lands on its fronts - this is good because the front end is very weak so a heavy frontal landing will break things LOL

 

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4 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

Yeah, I was surprised myself though at how close they were to 50/50, especially the Thundershot. I honestly thought it would be closer to what you suggested too.......

I KNEW they wouldn't be as bad as 30/70 - which is exactly what my RC10 is! Most 2WD Buggies have the Motor and Gearbox BEHIND the Rear Axle, and the Battery just in front of the Rear Axle.

They're DESIGNED for soft surfaces. The Front Tyres are always skinny, and CUT a path into a corner more than actually grip. The Rear has all the weight for maximum RWD Traction - and they look cool flying Nose up, landing on their Rears!! 😜 But there's even logic to that - the Rear Tyres land first, getting quick Traction to accelerate out of a jump quicker. 

I would seriously expect someone to HIT me with a Bat, if I ever suggested turning my DT-02 into a Road Course Car!!! 😲😜 

Most AWD Buggies ARE a bit better in the weight bias department... But remember, they're STILL designed to Cut into Corners and Bite out of Jumps. 😉 

You know.... You're SELLING me a Thundershot!! 😊 I may have to get one next year.

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Had to skip the last round, because I just had too much going on... but we're having our side-yard parking area paved sometime next week. If I time it right (after the asphalt cures but before we move the cars and trailer back into place), I might be able to do this round on fresh, brand-new asphalt. :)

Otherwise, I'll just use the concrete main driveway again. But at least I won't have those two turns on dirt/gravel any more...

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So today I took my F103 out for a run around the Round 3 course. I was expecting it to be pretty good - a RC F1 is after all designed to accelerate and corner extremely quickly on a smooth surface - but HOLY COW! With the Coronapocalypse, it has been several months since I last drove a RC F1, and I had to take a few laps to recalibrate my reactions to match its nimbleness. However once I had done so, it was brilliant!

With several other people talking about entering F1s in this round, I can't say whether I'll manage to make it to the top of the rankings this time. However I'm quite confident in predicting that top spot will be taken by someone with a F1!

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46 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

So today I took my F103 out for a run around the Round 3 course. I was expecting it to be pretty good - a RC F1 is after all designed to accelerate and corner extremely quickly on a smooth surface - but HOLY COW! With the Coronapocalypse, it has been several months since I last drove a RC F1, and I had to take a few laps to recalibrate my reactions to match its nimbleness. However once I had done so, it was brilliant!

With several other people talking about entering F1s in this round, I can't say whether I'll manage to make it to the top of the rankings this time. However I'm quite confident in predicting that top spot will be taken by someone with a F1!

Interesting... I don't have an F1 car, but I do have a few old pan cars to choose from: an Associated 10L, a Mardave V12, a Bolink Legends car, and of course the antique-store Parma Hemi Coupe... I wonder how those would do?

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1 minute ago, markbt73 said:

Interesting... I don't have an F1 car, but I do have a few old pan cars to choose from: an Associated 10L, a Mardave V12, a Bolink Legends car, and of course the antique-store Parma Hemi Coupe... I wonder how those would do?

Only one way to find out! ;)

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@markbt73 Pan Cars can be made to RUN quite fast!! Handling is iffy, but Foam Tyres can mitigate a bit of issues! It's just that Suspensions are nearly nonexistent on most Pan Cars..... 

I used to Race 1/10th Legends Cars on Bolink Flats. Did well, but it was a well prepared Carpet surface. 

I for two - would be very intrigued and excited to see how it does!! I would seriously get Foam Tyres though....

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OKAY..... 😲  I've decided that this will be a non stress Stage for me!! 

My M05, though fast, has to slow to a crawl in tight turns, wasting time accelerating.... 

My TT-02S SM RRRR GT4 - is BRAND NEW (although 4 years old!), untested and unproven. A big IF. 

And there's thorogbred Racing Cars!!?? 😲😳  I may not fare well, but I'm definitely going to push BOTH Cars!! 

I may even throw out the 'Oliday Buggy, just for Sheets and Giggles! 😜

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5 minutes ago, Carmine A said:

@markbt73 Pan Cars can be made to RUN quite fast!! Handling is iffy, but Foam Tyres can mitigate a bit of issues! It's just that Suspensions are nearly nonexistent on most Pan Cars..... 

I used to Race 1/10th Legends Cars on Bolink Flats. Did well, but it was a well prepared Carpet surface. 

I for two - would be very intrigued and excited to see how it does!! I would seriously get Foam Tyres though....

My 10L is my old carpet-oval racing car from the early-mid 90s (the only car I still have from that era). I also ran it on a carpet road course for a while. It's surgically precise, and I have a brand new set of foam Jaco purple rears and pink fronts for it. But what I don't have for it is a body... gotta see if I have anything that fits, or just run it nekkid, I suppose.

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6 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

My 10L is my old carpet-oval racing car from the early-mid 90s (the only car I still have from that era). I also ran it on a carpet road course for a while. It's surgically precise, and I have a brand new set of foam Jaco purple rears and pink fronts for it. But what I don't have for it is a body... gotta see if I have anything that fits, or just run it nekkid, I suppose.

I was SO tempted to run my TT-02 Nekked!! 😜😖  Then I thought about the now DISCONTINUED Tamiya Blue FRP Chassis being damaged in a rollover.... 

I will be very upset if I mess up the Body - but gutted if that Chassis got damaged. 

10Ls are NICE Chassis'!!! I'd love to see how it does just for nostalgic reasons. It isn't set to the standard 253-260mm TC Wheelbase?

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Just seen the new layout for this round. Oh ****** came to mind! I don't do well on this ripe of challenge or I didn't last time, I seem to do okay on faster tracks. So I believe it must be down to how I set up my car. My M05 is out of action, so I will be competing with a different chassis and starting from scratch. In a nut shell, I am looking for tips from everyone on how you would approach your set up for this week's track and look forward to hearing from anyone. Thanks guys and girls, oh and the very best of luck too all of you.

By the way not sure what I will use RWD, FWD, or 4WD?

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7 minutes ago, DayRider said:

Just seen the new layout for this round. Oh ****** came to mind!

Join the queue.... :lol:

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32 minutes ago, DayRider said:

Just seen the new layout for this round. Oh ****** came to mind!!

I agree!! My M05 is not the Corner burner I hoped for, but it's at least miles better than bog standard. 

I LOVE the FWD Minis - and I'm hoping that the M07 will be as good as others say. Sure can't afford it yet, but I'm going straight to the Pro!! 😊  Might as well have the goodies up front, right?

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On the extremely tight courses, I simply crank the steering rate to maximum and run the car as I would normally. Also, I find that slower is sometimes quicker - keeping the speed relatively low and concentrating on precision around the corners can give surprisingly good results. In round 1 I drove my M-07 and M-08 with rapid acceleration and hard braking, making the most of their 13.5t power and taking a racing line around the markers. Loads of fun! But then I took my M-03 out and did almost as well with far less speed but tighter, straighter lines.

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12 hours ago, mud4fun said:

The mudlets ...

May I ask about the origin of this word? I understood its your daughters (or females in general) but I cant find anything in the dictionary about this word. Sonds funny to me and as I am non-nativ english it suprise me much.

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