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Daniel.S15

M-06 Handling

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Hello everybody!

This is my very first question on this forum (and in this language... ) and yes, i know my English leaves a lot to be desired, but believe me i do my best, so please go easy on me :)

 

I'm going to build an M-06(Nimh Battery and TBLE-02s Esc.), but it being my first RWD Chassis i have a few question when it comes to the handling:

-Is my Sport Tuned motor powerful enough for it to be quick when accelerating out of a curve or should i buy something hotter(I would prefer a brushed one)? I guess quick acceleration depends also on the gear ratio, so my next question is:

-What pinion size should i choose?

-Is an Anti-roll bar any good for this chassis?

-How does this Chassis actually drive? Sorry for the dumb question, but i guess it will be FAR different than my TL-01, TA-02 or M-03, so i just want to have an idea in terms of what to look for when it comes to driving this car.

Good Tires(60D M-Grip), Suspension(Oil filled extra short dampers),  Aluminium Steering(Yeah Racing) are also going to be on the Car 

      

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Welcome to Tamiya Club!  

And your English is fine. 

1) You don't even need Sport Tuned.  I have a couple of Sport Tuned, but I chose NOT to install it on M06.  It's quick enough.  With more power, the easier it would be to lose control too. But of course, experimenting is a big part of RC, so it's up to you.  

2) 20t supplied is good enough also.  If you have Teflon grease, even aluminum pinion is fine.  If you want steel pinion, that's fine too.  

3) I haven't installed anti-roll bar, so I can't say.  The stock version is fine for me.   

4) It's very tail heavy.  The nose is very light.  So it drives like an old VW bug, if you have been in one.  

5) I had installed oil shocks, but the front is so light, I drained the oil out of Front shocks (Yeah Racing shocks for about $25).  I kept the stock Tamiya springs.  

6) The rear can easily spin out, so my M06 came with S-Grip for the rear (M-Grip for the front).  No need to buy new tires.  

7) Aluminum steering kit is not necessary, in my opinion.  The stock steering is precise enough. But spicing up is fun too. 

8) I recommend using AW grease in your differential (I forget if it comes with it or not).  Little bit of Limited-Slip-Differential action makes it easier to handle. Otherwise, the tail tends to spin out.  There are sticky grease designed for diffs. (Below is too much stickiness for M06. But AW grease is just about right) 

IaYdK2A.jpg

6jzu0Fd.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Daniel.S15 said:

Hello everybody!

This is my very first question on this forum (and in this language... ) and yes, i know my English leaves a lot to be desired, but believe me i do my best, so please go easy on me :)

 

I'm going to build an M-06(Nimh Battery and TBLE-02s Esc.), but it being my first RWD Chassis i have a few question when it comes to the handling:

-Is my Sport Tuned motor powerful enough for it to be quick when accelerating out of a curve or should i buy something hotter(I would prefer a brushed one)? I guess quick acceleration depends also on the gear ratio, so my next question is:

-What pinion size should i choose?

-Is an Anti-roll bar any good for this chassis?

-How does this Chassis actually drive? Sorry for the dumb question, but i guess it will be FAR different than my TL-01, TA-02 or M-03, so i just want to have an idea in terms of what to look for when it comes to driving this car.

Good Tires(60D M-Grip), Suspension(Oil filled extra short dampers),  Aluminium Steering(Yeah Racing) are also going to be on the Car 

      

Sport tuned will be plenty fast. M means always biggest pinion, 20T.

Anti Roll bar is good for fine tuning on this chassis, you can add it later.

I like driving this chassis, as it´s the easiest to handle M-chassis with RWD in my eyes. M08 can be a little faster into the corner, but is also more edgy when grip is low. You cannot compare driving it with a FWD M or  an 4WD car, it´s the biggest challenge you can have on the radio. But in the right conditions, it´s a blast to drive and you will not notice, that it´s actually the heaviest of all Tamiya M-chassis.

Oil filled dampers are a must (on any M), as track width and wheel base are small, and those little beasts really like some damping. Depending on the road conditions, I´d prefer the S-Grips over the M-grips on most surfaces. You can use M-grip or radial for the front to make driving easier with a little more understeer in the beginning.

What can help you too is a good ball diff or even an oil filled gear diff from 3Racing, Yeah racing or Tamiya (using TB04 and TA03 parts). So you get all the power to the ground.;)

Kind M-regards,

Matthias

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31 minutes ago, Juggular said:

Welcome to Tamiya Club!  

And your English is fine. 

1) You don't even need Sport Tuned.  I have a couple of Sport Tuned, but I chose NOT to install it on M06.  It's quick enough.  With more power, the easier it would be to lose control too. But of course, experimenting is a big part of RC, so it's up to you.  

2) 20t supplied is good enough also.  If you have Teflon grease, even aluminum pinion is fine.  If you want steel pinion, that's fine too.  

3) I haven't installed anti-roll bar, so I can't say.  The stock version is fine for me.   

4) It's very tail heavy.  The nose is very light.  So it drives like an old VW bug, if you have been in one.  

5) I had installed oil shocks, but the front is so light, I drained the oil out of Front shocks (Yeah Racing shocks for about $25).  I kept the stock Tamiya springs.  

6) The rear can easily spin out, so my M06 came with S-Grip for the rear (M-Grip for the front).  No need to buy new tires.  

7) Aluminum steering kit is not necessary, in my opinion.  The stock steering is precise enough. But spicing up is fun too. 

8) I recommend using AW grease in your differential (I forget if it comes with it or not).  Little bit of Limited-Slip-Differential action makes it easier to handle. Otherwise, the tail tends to spin out.  There are sticky grease designed for diffs. (Below is too much stickiness for M06. But AW grease is just about right) 

IaYdK2A.jpg

6jzu0Fd.jpg

 

Thank you for your answer. :) It gives me the impression, that sometimes less can be more.

By VERY tail heavy did you mean tail heavy just like a DT-02?

I had one and on gravel it was a blast, but it didn't matter what i did to the steering and the suspension it had horrible understeer on tarmac because of its tail heaviness.

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22 minutes ago, ruebiracer said:

Sport tuned will be plenty fast. M means always biggest pinion, 20T.

Anti Roll bar is good for fine tuning on this chassis, you can add it later.

I like driving this chassis, as it´s the easiest to handle M-chassis with RWD in my eyes. M08 can be a little faster into the corner, but is also more edgy when grip is low. You cannot compare driving it with a FWD M or  an 4WD car, it´s the biggest challenge you can have on the radio. But in the right conditions, it´s a blast to drive and you will not notice, that it´s actually the heaviest of all Tamiya M-chassis.

Oil filled dampers are a must (on any M), as track width and wheel base are small, and those little beasts really like some damping. Depending on the road conditions, I´d prefer the S-Grips over the M-grips on most surfaces. You can use M-grip or radial for the front to make driving easier with a little more understeer in the beginning.

What can help you too is a good ball diff or even an oil filled gear diff from 3Racing, Yeah racing or Tamiya (using TB04 and TA03 parts). So you get all the power to the ground.;)

Kind M-regards,

Matthias

Thank you for the answer . :) 

With a good ball diff or oil filled gear diff i could get all the power to the ground. In case of an FWD or 4WD it would be certainly beneficial, but if i apply the same effect on a tail heavy RWD car, will it not have a big tendency for drifting?  Or it all depends on how tight that ball diff is or how heavy that oil is in the diff? 

Its just a theoretical question since i only have the good old tamiya gear diff(except for the rear ball diff in my ta-02, but i have no idea if its setup the right way. )

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Hello and welcome to the club!

Everyone will have different views regarding the ideal way to configure any particular model. Here are my opinions:

1. The M-06 is a capable chassis with a robust drivetrain, so there is no need to hold back on the power. I find my M-06 easily handles a 13.5t brushless motor with no undue wear or nasty handling vices, and is loads of fun to drive!

2. A 20T pinion in steel is a good bet for reliability's sake.

3. I find the chassis is nicely balanced without any anti-roll bars.

4. It will be different to anything in your fleet so far, with a tendency towards oversteer, and will need a different driving style, light on the brakes since they act only on the rear wheels. However as far as RWD chassis go, it is a pretty forgiving one and is unlikely to give you too steep a learning curve.

5. I use Tamiya Mini CVAs on mine, 3-hole pistons up front, 2-hole pistons at the back, Tamiya soft damper oil. I have the Renault Alpine bodyshell on mine, so I have set it up with a tad more ground clearance than stock as befitting its iconic rally status.

2019-07-10_11-29-15

6. I find that Tamiya's M-size rally blocks are a great fit for this chassis, broadening your choice of potential running areas.

7. The stock steering isn't terrible, but the Yeah Racing set is stronger and less sloppy. I run it on mine and it works really well.

8. I agree regarding the AW grease in the diff. Good shout!

Here is mine next to its FWD M-05 sibling:

2019-03-04_06-27-01

 

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22 hours ago, Daniel.S15 said:

if i apply the same effect on a tail heavy RWD car, will it not have a big tendency for drifting?  Or it all depends on how tight that ball diff is or how heavy that oil is in the diff? 

Its just a theoretical question since i only have the good old tamiya gear diff

It would drift if you lock it.  So it would depend on how tight ball diff is or how sticky the grease is.  

I've seen a video of a Konghead spinning on one spot like a spinning top. Not going anywhere, just spinning and spinning. Even the Japanese guy who was driving it sounded surprised.  That would never be possible with AW grease in the diffs.  Forward momentum would be too much. 

You can apply the same principle to the tail-wagging of a RWD chassis.  If the differentials are sticky, both wheels would want to spin more or less at the same ratio.  Meaning, they would try to go forward, instead of spinning. Which would result in less turning at the rear.  Which would mean less spinouts.  

Locked diffs spins in a different way.  If locked, one or both wheels must lose traction at any turn. Then the chassis go with where the weight goes. Hence drifting.  

So the conclusion is, locking is bad, free rotating is also not good.  I've got Bad Horsie diff lock pictured before, 3Racing diff grease, and differential putty too. But I found that for M-chassis, AW grease seems to be the best match.  All these other things would be tad too sticky for M-chassis and nearly lock the diff.  

For DT02, which is indeed somewhat similar in the weight distribution, I use stickier diff grease.  Traction has a lot to do with understeer, so sometimes a bit of a weight on the nose could be a quick and dirty way to fix the understeer on tarmac.  

Oh, man... @TurnipJF' Apline is gorgeous!  I was going to get a Karman Ghia next, but now I'll have to get an Apline 110 first!  Oh the fickle nature of a man... lol...  

cxCq6xM.jpg

Those rally tires would be perfect for that type of surface. In that case, I'd install Sport Tuned.  Fitting for a rally set up too! And if using a hotter motor, steel pinion would be good too. (I'm lazy and cheap, so I just use teflon grease and call it a day. Gears just wear less with teflon.  But I did see a 20 year old used car delivered with total paste of aluminum. That's bad, I had to get a steel pinon for that one -- it might have been TL01B) 

I have the same motor heatsink.  Many M-chassis motors don't get a lot of air, and magnets in the motor don't like heat.  If you are running stock, it's not really necessary.  But for hotter motors, it might not be a bad thing to have. The same goes for steering. See how you like the stock steering on M06. If you find it sloppy, you can get a 3rd party kit.  

No 2 car would be set up the same way. No 2 people would do it the same way either.  And if you want the best performance, you would use best tires for each surface.  If you find it understeering, you might want to replace front 2 tires with super grip, for example.  I'd check out what tires come with your kit first, though.  

I run mostly buggies, but I'm glad that I jumped into M chassis with M-06.  I hope you like yours.  

 

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1 hour ago, Juggular said:

Oh, man... @TurnipJF' Apline is gorgeous!  I was going to get a Karman Ghia next, but now I'll have to get an Apline 110 first!  Oh the fickle nature of a man... lol...  

Sorry - didn't mean to mess up your plans. Let me see if I can fix that...

2020-04-27_02-02-36

 

2020-04-27_02-03-03

 

😁

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1 hour ago, Juggular said:

It would drift if you lock it.  So it would depend on how tight ball diff is or how sticky the grease is.  

I've seen a video of a Konghead spinning on one spot like a spinning top. Not going anywhere, just spinning and spinning. Even the Japanese guy who was driving it sounded surprised.  That would never be possible with AW grease in the diffs.  Forward momentum would be too much. 

You can apply the same principle to the tail-wagging of a RWD chassis.  If the differentials are sticky, both wheels would want to spin more or less at the same ratio.  Meaning, they would try to go forward, instead of spinning. Which would result in less turning at the rear.  Which would mean less spinouts.  

Locked diffs spins in a different way.  If locked, one or both wheels must lose traction at any turn. Then the chassis go with where the weight goes. Hence drifting.  

So the conclusion is, locking is bad, free rotating is also not good.  I've got Bad Horsie diff lock pictured before, 3Racing diff grease, and differential putty too. But I found that for M-chassis, AW grease seems to be the best match.  All these other things would be tad too sticky for M-chassis and nearly lock the diff.  

For DT02, which is indeed somewhat similar in the weight distribution, I use stickier diff grease.  Traction has a lot to do with understeer, so sometimes a bit of a weight on the nose could be a quick and dirty way to fix the understeer on tarmac.  

Oh, man... @TurnipJF' Apline is gorgeous!  I was going to get a Karman Ghia next, but now I'll have to get an Apline 110 first!  Oh the fickle nature of a man... lol...  

 

Those rally tires would be perfect for that type of surface. In that case, I'd install Sport Tuned.  Fitting for a rally set up too! And if using a hotter motor, steel pinion would be good too. (I'm lazy and cheap, so I just use teflon grease and call it a day. Gears just wear less with teflon.  But I did see a 20 year old used car delivered with total paste of aluminum. That's bad, I had to get a steel pinon for that one -- it might have been TL01B) 

I have the same motor heatsink.  Many M-chassis motors don't get a lot of air, and magnets in the motor don't like heat.  If you are running stock, it's not really necessary.  But for hotter motors, it might not be a bad thing to have. The same goes for steering. See how you like the stock steering on M06. If you find it sloppy, you can get a 3rd party kit.  

No 2 car would be set up the same way. No 2 people would do it the same way either.  And if you want the best performance, you would use best tires for each surface.  If you find it understeering, you might want to replace front 2 tires with super grip, for example.  I'd check out what tires come with your kit first, though.  

I run mostly buggies, but I'm glad that I jumped into M chassis with M-06.  I hope you like yours.  

 

Many thanks for your detailed explanation :)

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On 9/17/2020 at 10:24 PM, Daniel.S15 said:

Thank you for the answer . :) 

With a good ball diff or oil filled gear diff i could get all the power to the ground. In case of an FWD or 4WD it would be certainly beneficial, but if i apply the same effect on a tail heavy RWD car, will it not have a big tendency for drifting?  Or it all depends on how tight that ball diff is or how heavy that oil is in the diff? 

Its just a theoretical question since i only have the good old tamiya gear diff(except for the rear ball diff in my ta-02, but i have no idea if its setup the right way. )

Yeah, the filling is the key. I got 3000 to 7000 oil in mind, depending on where you will mostly run. But as the others explained, if you use the std. diff the AW grease is the key to get a similar effect.;)

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13 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

Sorry - didn't mean to mess up your plans. Let me see if I can fix that...

2020-04-27_02-02-36

 

2020-04-27_02-03-03

 

😁

Great color choice, is that gunmetal from Tamiya? The dark one? Hard to say for me with all that shine!:wub:

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lol... @TurnipJF got my head turning around so fast I'm dizzy!  

o9NEY.gif.208d8a3f009df704234196f79de8676b.gif

 

You are going to double the sales of Karmann Ghia for Tamiya!  

Now I'm going to have to get both!  

fkuL8QB.jpg

 

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@Daniel.S15 Which shell do you have planned for your M-06? Different shells require different wheelbase settings, and wheelbase has quite an effect on the car's handling. 

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@TurnipJF Good question, because im thinking of a body(or two) wich i'd like to put on the car for each wheelbase setting:

     for 210mm:  Nissan Silvia S15 OR 

     for 225mm: Alfa Romeo Giulia 

     for 239mm: VW Karmann-Ghia (just like yours :)  ) the most gorgeous body(perhaps too gorgeous for me to mess it up... i would not put it on a runner) for an M-chassis there is. OR   Nissan Silvia S13

I CAN'T DECIDE :D :D:D   Wich wheelbase do you prefer if it comes to handling?

ghia.jpg

giulia.jpg

s13.jpg

s15.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Daniel.S15 said:

@TurnipJF Good question, because im thinking of a body wich i'd like to have for each wheelbase setting:

     for 210mm:  Nissan Silvia S15 OR 

     for 225mm: Alfa Romeo Giulia 

     for 239mm: VW Karmann-Ghia (just like yours :)  ) the most gorgeous body for an M-chassis there is. OR   Nissan Silvia S13

I CAN'T DECIDE :D :D:D 

ghia.jpg

giulia.jpg

s13.jpg

s15.jpg

All very attractive choices, but in terms of handling, all else being equal, the longer the wheelbase, the more planted and predictable the car. Conversely, the shorter the wheelbase, the sharper the handling, but the more it shows up any inconsistencies in your driving. I suppose it depends on what you want from the car. A RWD M-chassis is quite a challenging car to drive irrespective of the wheelbase, so would you like to try to tame it a little with a longer wheelbase, or experience the car in its most challenging form by going for a short wheelbase?

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More body-options for me if it does not have to be from TAMIYA. 

L&L models

TM935 Mini Porsche 935, 210mm  or   TM102  TOYOTA Mr2 210mm

 

 

935.jpg

MR2.jpg

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1 minute ago, Daniel.S15 said:

More body-options for me if it does not have to be from TAMIYA. 

L&L models

TM935 Mini Porsche 935, 210mm  or   TM102  TOYOTA Mr2 210mm

 

 

935.jpg

MR2.jpg

That is another consideration - handling issues aside, there are more shells available in 210mm wheelbase, as there are several other M-class chassis from other manufacturers that use this standard, whereas the MWB and LWB settings are not as widely used on non-Tamiya cars.

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1 minute ago, TurnipJF said:

That is another consideration - handling issues aside, there are more shells available in 210mm wheelbase, as there are several other M-class chassis from other manufacturers that use this standard, whereas the MWB and LWB settings are not as widely used on non-Tamiya cars.

Certainly yes, but i think i will choose right from the middle: 225mm with the Alfa Romeo Giulia body. The body is nice, but not so low to the ground on the front and on the rear as well. The handling seems to have the best of both ends in terms of wheelbase. 

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5 hours ago, Daniel.S15 said:

Certainly yes, but i think i will choose right from the middle: 225mm with the Alfa Romeo Giulia body. The body is nice, but not so low to the ground on the front and on the rear as well. The handling seems to have the best of both ends in terms of wheelbase. 

I daresay 225mm is a good compromise - both my FWD and RWD competition M-chassis are set up in MWB configuration, and they both run well.

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It's crazy when you see them lined up with the different wheel bases, you are only talking a few centre meters and it makes such a big difference to the handling. I must admit though, my M05 is set at 225mm and this works for me. I have just finished a M06 and I have set it at 210mm just to see how it handles and because I have seen a body shell I like at that WB. I have a M08 and that is set at 239mm only because I run that on a track that has a lot of long straights and not many tight bends, so l can't wait to see how it works out at 210mm.

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On 9/19/2020 at 10:21 AM, ruebiracer said:

Great color choice, is that gunmetal from Tamiya? The dark one? Hard to say for me with all that shine!:wub:

Thanks! That is Bright Gunmetal, PS-63.

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2 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

Thanks! That is Bright Gunmetal, PS-63.

Great, thanks for the info! Although I have done my Avante 2001 in this color, I couldn´t identify the color on the Karmann! This color is so varying depending on the light conditions, guess you already noticed, too. 

Great looking on your Karmann, it really brings out the nice shapes of it!:)

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