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Lee76

Crawling for dummies...

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Hi all, does anyone have time to give me the idiots guide to crawling? I’ve been thinking about adding one to my collection for some time. I like the idea of building some obstacle courses in the garden I could use all year round (I’m a fair weather over protective pilot for the other cars)

I’d like something with reasonable scale detail, I’d prefer a kit build but could be persuaded other wise..

I’d like it to be good.. as in, well regarded by crawlers who might crawl competitively. A friend bought a Cr01 second hand, it wasn’t built with locked diffs, so probably a really unfair example, but it couldn’t crawl over a paving slab...I’ve still not persuaded him to put the lock pins in to see what it can do...

I’m not necessarily restricted to tamiya, though I have thought about putting on a beetle body, I’m quite partial to those.. If the bruiser was a really good crawler I’d 100% just buy that.. (still want one of these for the collection one day..)

Soo...

Do I need a special speed controller or transmitter? Something with low speed mode or auto brake?

Do you need more than  2 channels on a transmitter?  Independent front and rear steering or twin motors?

Are ‘wheel’ transmitters still the popular choice?

what motor would you use if not supplied in whichever kit I buy.. do the supplied ones meet the standards required?

Is high suspension travel the be all and end all of crawling?

I’ve looked at a few video’s read a few reviews, seems most people are favouring some kind of Traxxas TRX4, but this is the place I come for proper advice, so thanks in advance to anyone that has read this far and might have some idiot guide advise on getting started..

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I have got a few crawlers they comprise of a Land Rover series 1 on a Heavily modified Ta01 chassis, a cc01 land cruiser and a high lift tundra.

The land rover and tundra both have stock motors which are the Mabuchi 27 turn but they have got very low gears. the land rover has a flywheel set up and the tundra is stock.

The tundra has a lot of hop up parts to make the suspension travel about twice the travel also the gears are better than the bruiser as it is always in 4wd no matter what gear it is in were as 2nd and 3rd are 2wd on the bruiser unless they redesigned it.

The CC01 has got locked diffs as has the land rover which dose defiantly give a crawler the edge and soft grippy tyres help a lot as well.

suspension travel is a must as well .

I don't use 4 wheels steer as it doesn't look that realistic on a scale truck and the lock isn't bad on all of my crawlers but I did slightly modifie the cco1 to get a better turning circle as it was appalling but the relay in the chassis had about seized oops.

I run standard Tamiya ESC's in all of my crawlers and they cope fine but I do use metal geared servos as they are a lot tougher than plastic and crawlers do get a bit of abuse.

I use 2 channel for most of my cars the but the tundra is 6 channel due to the lighting system and the gears.  

I have added some pictures of the tundra I just rebuilt it came with all of the hop ups.

crawling is also about choosing the best line over the rough terrain.

022_30.jpg

023_30.jpg

016_30.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Doc Hollywood said:

The tundra has a lot of hop up parts to make the suspension travel about twice the travel also the gears are better than the bruiser as it is always in 4wd no matter what gear it is in were as 2nd and 3rd are 2wd on the bruiser unless they redesigned it.

 

Thanks for the response, the tundra looks great, I quite like that the tyres aren’t too aggressive and look a little more scale.

When you refer to gearing, I know nothing.. Are there actually electronic actuated shifters in the gearboxes picking new ratios or is it just an electronic switch telling the speed controller to operate in different speed modes? Does the bruiser switch between 2wd and 4wd from the remote too? I’ll have to have a good look over the tundra manual now.. I’ll hold off begging for any hop up lists until I know which way I’m going :)

 

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That's ok I am glad to be of assistance. Thank you for the compliment it took 2 weeks to totally strip down and rebuild I can tell you were I got the tryre from the cost around £20.

The tundra has a gear box like a real car so you have a selector shaft connected to a servo and when the servo is in neutral it is in 2nd gear and when you pull the joy stick to the left its in 1st gear and to the right 3rd gear It is a bit hard to drive if you have never done it before but with time and practice it should come naturally you will also need a shift plate for the transmitter that will make things easier but it will need to be a 4channel transmitter the bruiser is the same.

The land rover is a fixed gearing set up so cant be adjusted in any way I did do a couple of threads on that as well,  and the same goes for the cc01 as well but if you want it to be lower geared and more torque you will need a higher turn motor like a 38.5 but I might be wrong.

I will try to find the tread

I have attached a pic of the gear box with its cover off

015_40.jpg

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Do I need a special speed controller or transmitter? Something with low speed mode or auto brake?

No special transmitter necessary.
ESC, brushed ESC with drag brake, HobbyWing Quicrun 1080 is widely used.
When going brushless a sensored setup is advised, HobbyWing Xerun AXE is a fantastic crawler specific system.

Do you need more than  2 channels on a transmitter?  Independent front and rear steering or twin motors?
Depends what you want, standard 2 channel can be enough.

I have 5 channels in use on my TRX4
1 steering
2 throttle/brake
3 2-speed
4 winch
5 lights

Are ‘wheel’ transmitters still the popular choice?
Personal choice, a lot of variety is seen on crawler/scaler events

what motor would you use if not supplied in whichever kit I buy.. do the supplied ones meet the standards required?
Brushed, somewhere in the 35t/45t range, some people prefer even higher 55t/80t motors.
Brushless, somewhere in the 1800-2300kv range is what I use

Is high suspension travel the be all and end all of crawling?
Too much travel can actually hurt performance

 

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To add to @Yonzariq's excellent answer:

Crawling is a fab way to spend a day, regardless of weather.  It's fun alone or (assuming you live somewhere where meeting other people is allowed) it's fun as a team challenge too.  It's also a great way to get out and explore some new countryside and get some exercise - IMO it's more physical than other forms of RC, not least when your truck gets stuck 3/4 of the way up a muddy bank that no sane person would try to climb.

Right now there are plenty of kits to choose from.  The TRX-4 seems to be the 'go-to' model for newcomers, and is available in kit form as the TRX-4 Sport.  It doesn't have the 2-speed gearbox of the original TRX-4, but really that's just useful for getting you between obstacles without getting bored (crawlers are slow).  The other chassis in the marketplace (and more popular with dedicated builders) is the Axial SCX10.  Still available in simpler (and cheaper) SCX10-II format and now the all-new SCX10-III, which has lots more features to compete with the full-fat TRX-4.  Available with a variety of bodies, or as a raw builder's kit.

Also in the marketplace are various GMade chassis (with a new one just been announced), the MST CFX (which is a smaller chassis to fit shorter Tamiya bodies) and the CFX-W, which adds portals and a longer wheelbase to make it more of a TRX-4 Sport competitor.  There's a host of other brands out there too, from bargain basement to big bucks.  I'd personally advise the mid-range price bracket if you're serious, but advise not bothering with big-ticket chassis until you've decided it's for you.

Tamiya don't really have a proper crawler, and never have.  You could modify a Tundra or other 3-speed, but it would be an expensive way to go.  The lash in the 3-speed gearbox will give you horrible control problems if you're doing technical crawling.  A CC01 isn't a crawler without a lot of mods, and even then will struggle against the dedicated competition.

Plenty of option to add scale details regardless of what you choose - plenty of good bodies on the market and lots of scale parts from the main hobby shops and niche crawler stores (rcbitz.com and greensmodels.co.uk are UK-based crawler specialists).

You can put a beetle body on anything if you want.  It won't be super-scale, but I've seen full-size big-wheel beetles before so it's not completely out of this world.

Do you need a special speed controller?  Nope.  As already mentioned, the HobbyWing 1080 is brilliant.  I use them in all my crawlers.  Instant 100% drag brake, instant reverse and good low-speed control make for a nicer experience.  You don't need any special transmitter, although expo config for throttle might be helpful with low-speed control and EPA adjustment for steering will help you get the most out of your steering angle (no matter how much you have, you always want more).

Do you need more than 2 channels?  As above - just 2 channels if all you want to do is drive.  You'll need a 3rd channel if you want to run a winch, which adds a whole new level of fun to crawling.  You'll need another channel if you want to control your lights remotely (as well as a receiver switch or light controller in the car).  Yes, you can crawl in the dark.  Actually going out after dark is great fun if you've got a good lighting setup.  If you have a model with a 2-speed gearbox or remotely-operated locking differential, you'll need a channel for that too.  I've not seen anybody run 4 wheel steering in a crawler in over a decade - it used to be a thing when people cared more about getting over obstacles than about how their rigs looked, but the scene now is more about scale realism.  You can do it if you want, but you might not be eligible to compete at a comp event*

Wheel or stick - the choice is yours.  Turnigy do a 5-channel wheel transmitter that gives you plenty of options, or the ubiquitous FlySky i6 for similar money is a multi-channel stick setup.

Motors - I've always fitted 55 turn brushed motors.  They have buckets of torque and run all day on a 4000MAh LiPo.  Will happily run 3S for a good balance between torque and speed between sections.  That said, 5-slot brushed motors are the new thing in crawling.  I've got one but haven't tried it yet.  In theory they give you smoother low-speed performance.  The number of turns is different to a conventional brushed motor - a 13T 5-slot may be approximately equivalent RPM-wise to a 27T silvercan, but it's not a direct comparison (that's about as much as I know, I haven't really played with 5-slot at all yet).

Also you can go brushless.  There are various crawler-specific brushless systems on the market.  I've not felt the need to go brushless yet.

High suspension travel - no.  As already mentioned, too much travel can limit how much force the chassis puts into the ground.  The right amount of clearance varies depending on what you want to achieve.  Build a dedicated crawler chassis as per the book and it should be about right.  Modify a Tundra for big articulation and you might not have a well-performing chassis.  It's about balance, and it's something the crawler designers work on a lot before they put their chassis to market.

Above all - have fun :)

*not that I've ever been to a comp event where it's taken seriously.  You're given a pencil and a score sheet and you mark your own progress.  It's not about winning, it's about challenging yourself and having fun.

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I'm very much a newbie to crawling myself, but I'm also a die-hard Tamiya fan, so bought a CR-01 (in my showroom if you're interested.)

I've built it with loads of hop ups and locked diffs, and have been really impressed with what it will get over. I've got a AsiaTees something 55T brushed motor in it, so it's not crazy slow but it's got heaps of torque. 

My friend and I went out with our trucks - he has an older TRX4 with the 2 speed gearbox and remote locking diffs etc - and to be honest, we were only messing around, but mine gave him a helping nudge up a really steep incline and was by no means outclassed by his. The only thing I noticed it did fall down on was weight - as he had lots of chassis weights and wheel weights so it was glued to the terrrain, whereas mine did want to flip over on a couple of steep descents. It does have a shocking turning circle with locked diffs front and rear - something the TRX really did beat it on - but other than that, to my untrained fingers, I struggled to see much of a difference.

As I said, we were only messing about, so I'm sure his would come into it's own in a competition, but for fun and starting out I really like my CR01.

For a transmitter I've got a Flysky 4 channel stick - I'm tempted to make use of one of the extra channels to allow me to use 4 wheel steering as shown in this brilliant hack: 

For a receiver I use a Quikrun 1060 which I've set up for auto brake and that's about it!

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@Mad Ax Thanks, that’s some great information, I’m going to take a few read throughs to digest this and start a shopping list!

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7 hours ago, jonboy1 said:

I'm very much a newbie to crawling myself, but I'm also a die-hard Tamiya fan, so bought a CR-01 (in my showroom if you're interested.)

Yeah, I can see me having to get one for running and don’t mind mashing up a little and one for brand loyalty that’ll look good on the shelf. Great looking shots in the show room btw.  

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I have 8 crawlers and up unitl COVID, my friends and I would go crawling 2-3 times per week.  Between us, there's Axial, Traxxas, Gmade and Vanquish.  From watching the group, the Axials hold up the best due to parts availability and simplicity.

Here's my go-to crawler set up;

  • Axial SCX10-2 (silver plastic transmission)
  • Lexan body
  • Axial trans metal gears
  • Axial 2-piece diff lockers
  • Jazrider shock mounts and frame braces
  • Jazrider skid plate
  • Jazrider steering knuckles
  • Unbranded front servo/bumper mount
  • Unbranded low cg/laydown front battery tray
  • 5000mah NiMH battery
  • Aluminum 1.9 beadlock wheels
  • ProLine 1.9 crawler tires 
  • ProLine 2-stage foams in the front tires
  • Castle Micro Crawler brushless system
  • Savox 1210sg servo
  • Gmade 85mm XD dampers (soft rear springs)

These parts make a truck that has low forward weight and great durability. Axial used mostly M3 screws throughout the rig so trail repairs are relatively painless.

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9 hours ago, SupraChrgd82 said:

I have 8 crawlers and up unitl COVID, my friends and I would go crawling 2-3 times per week.  Between us, there's Axial, Traxxas, Gmade and Vanquish.  From watching the group, the Axials hold up the best due to parts availability and simplicity.

That’s a good breakdown of parts! Plenty of reading up to do. I ele the raw builders kit for this isn’t too expensive either and variable wheelbase.

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Do you like hop-ups?  The Axial kit has a wealth of aftermarket hop-ups  (as you can see from the previous post) and quite a few parts are interchangeable between different suppliers. SSD make some nice kit which isn't too expensive for gears and links. If you go too far though, you might have well bought one of their Trail King Pro rigs. You have been warned...

Dip into the scale forums and you'll soon hear about Holmes Hobbies motors - his YouTube videos  are well worth a watch  to learn about powering crawlers.

My experience of crawling so far could be taken as a cautionary tale. I threw myself in with total abandon. I caught the scale bug, saw a body I liked then came across a second hand chassis for it, quickly bought some wheels and tyres for it and then set about pulling all the elements together. That was a year ago, I've been through four iterations of wheels / tyres, I'm on my second ESC, second set of dampers for it and it hasn't even turned a wheel.

In that time I've gone from wanting a total scale Class 0 (think I have that right) truck to something more useable by me and my kid in the back garden and beyond. 

All this is down to me - impulsive, poorly planned and ham-fisted. Even the research I did do wasn't enough. BUT I have enjoyed it, learned a lot and this rig will definately be mine by the time I finish it!

EDIT: a note on the raw builders kit - you can vary the wheelbase but if you extend some links but not all you can't rotate the hubs to vertical as they are one piece (like you can on other models). I have these axles on my rig. Axial mix and match their parts between vehicles. If you are thinking of Axial, I would suggest downloading the manuals to compare what you get between different models in terms of transmission and axles.

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9 hours ago, Lee76 said:

That’s a good breakdown of parts! Plenty of reading up to do. I ele the raw builders kit for this isn’t too expensive either and variable wheelbase.

The Builder's Kit is a great selection.  It comes with the metal trans gears and upgraded aluminum links.

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@Badcrumble yeah I can totally see me doing exactly as you explained... to be honest I totally enjoy the building part more than the driving, at least for the off road kits I have, crawling round the garden might be something I can do all year round with the child having ago too.. so if I go too far scale I wont want him to get his dangerous and destructive little hands on it... I had a quick google and found somewhere making an axial transmission case with replica engine attached.. this could definitely be a cash hole!

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Hi Doc Hollywood, I want to increase the ground clearance of the Tunder but failed to find the Junfac in the market.  From the pictures you share, it seems that you have done some modifications to increase the ground clearance.  Can you share what materials / parts are required? Many thanks 

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On 10/10/2020 at 10:44 AM, Doc Hollywood said:

That's ok I am glad to be of assistance. Thank you for the compliment it took 2 weeks to totally strip down and rebuild I can tell you were I got the tryre from the cost around £20.

The tundra has a gear box like a real car so you have a selector shaft connected to a servo and when the servo is in neutral it is in 2nd gear and when you pull the joy stick to the left its in 1st gear and to the right 3rd gear It is a bit hard to drive if you have never done it before but with time and practice it should come naturally you will also need a shift plate for the transmitter that will make things easier but it will need to be a 4channel transmitter the bruiser is the same.

The land rover is a fixed gearing set up so cant be adjusted in any way I did do a couple of threads on that as well,  and the same goes for the cc01 as well but if you want it to be lower geared and more torque you will need a higher turn motor like a 38.5 but I might be wrong.

I will try to find the tread

I have attached a pic of the gear box with its cover off

015_40.jpg

RE the shifting, you used to be able to get and presumably still can an H gate arrangement that fit over your throttle stick to help with positioning of the stick to change gear. If not they are simple enough to knock up yourself with just a sheet of cardboard or plasticard or something.

this type of thing

Note to self. read the lads post properly before jumping in. @Doc Hollywood had already mentioned the shift gate

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@garfield88 Hi I don't know a lot about the lift parts as I bought the truck with all of those parts attached but I tweaked them as they were not fitted properly so the radius arms were rubbing on the steering I think you can buy the parts separately but will look into it I can give you measurements though  

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Hi Lee  - as a thought, and based on your original post, if you really like the Tamiya Bruiser, then take a look at an RC4WD Trailfinder II (kit or RTR) - that is essentially the Tamiya HiLux body on a very scale appropriate leaf-spring chassis - everything is metal - with loads of upgrades available too.

note. If you want something that performs pretty well already out of the box, then consider their Marlin Crawler version, which already has a few upgrades and a bobbed body too.

Also, be aware that while the Trailfinder might not be considered as 'robust' if you're the kind of driver that just likes to hammer and bash at everything, as other people have alluded to already - what makes crawling particularly fun for a lot of people is not having a vehicle that is so capable (masses of axle articulation and ground clearance, and huge wheels) that it simply walks over everything - rather having a vehicle that more closely mirrors a real 4x4 vehicle, and which you have to drive appropriately and pick the right line etc.

Have noodle around on some of my build threads (links below) to give you an idea of how you can combine scale looks with a chassis that still performs reasonably well, and fundamentally realistically - note that all of mine are custom builds using a mix and match approach for various kit components and Ebay upgrades, but that you could easily build something similar either based on the RC4WD Trailfinder kit (if you want leaf springs) or something like an SCX10 II or Traxxas TRX4 sport raw builder's chassis kit for example. Another option is the Element Enduro chassis [builder's] kit - that also has the option of having independent front suspension should you wish. Oh, and finally a very affordable way to get a coil-sprung chassis that is pretty capable out of the box is the Redcat Gen-8 PACK (Pre Assembled Chassis Kit) - those are available for around $150 in the US at the moment.

I love my Tamiyas, but have to concede they are completely outclassed with regard to chassis design these days - even the CC-02. In that regard, personally I would go for a MST chassis (as Mad Ax suggests above) if you wanted to mount a 250-275mm Tamiya body in true 1/10th scale. There is no doubt that from a scale modelling perspective, Tamiya Hardbodies still rule of course - although again RC4WD have a number of very nicely made and wonderfully detailed hard-body kits if you want something other than that which is available from the Tamiya garage.

Hope that helps...

Jenny x

Leaf-sprung Jeep Wrangler - Trailfinder/Gelande copy chassis, RC4WD leaf-springs & axles, Tamiya Wrangler body, 1.9 size wheels

Coil-sprung/4-link Defender 90 - Trailfinder/Gelande copy chassis, custom links & axles, RC4WD body, 2.2 size wheels

Coil-sprung Toyota 4Runner - Vanquish VS4-10 chassis (Axial SCX10 II dimensions), custom links & axles, RC4WD body, 1.9 size wheels

Leaf-sprung FJ40 Land Cruiser - Trailfinder/Gelande copy chassis, RC4WD leaf-springs & axles, RC4WD body, 1.9 size wheels (note. converted from a coil sprung chassis and 2.2 wheels at the beginning of the thread)

 

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We do quite a bit of crawling here in Texas. There's no "wrong" way to go about it, really.

If you're looking for a good performing stock build with high levels of scale realism, try the Axial SCX-10.3. It has excellent quantity, nicely detailed plastics, and a superb body set. You'll need at least four channels to use all of the stock features (two-speed and dig), five if you want a winch. The rig is a very capable trailer stone stock, and is an excellent rock grinder with some extra weight up front and down low. Even the stock tires are pretty good, although steel or aluminum headlocks would be my first addition. Of course, a killer light kit is a must-have.

As for electronics, I use everything from a 3800kv Castle on 3S to a cheapy 13t five slot. Big HP lets you have the wheel speed for long climbs, while the sensored motor gives you the control for technical work, but there's no need to go nuts, especially for trail work, as long as you can get about eight mph or so. Save the money for a steering servo. There's no such thing as enough for a crawler, and make sure that the BEC has enough power to run it properly.

Leaf sprung rigs like the TF2 are very scale and fun, but suffer from durability issues when used hard, and can't handle much power at all. You are also restricted on tire size, because there just isn't much room. The coil spring Gelande chassis is much more durable, while still being more scale.

Don't worry too much about those huge flex pics you see on Facebook. Too much flex makes the rig hard to drive precisely, it ruins the sidehill performance, exacerbates torque twist, and won't let you carry a wheel over a gap.

Crawling/trailing is an awful lot of fun. Anything with locked diffs and a deep gear ratio will "work", just with different levels of performance and scale realism. The deep gear ratio is vital, though. Also, stay away from work gear axles for trailing. They're really great for comp rigs, but need way too much maintenance and motor to be good on the trail.

One quick brag - we're going camping this weekend, and have already planned each day's hikes. We should be able to run about 30 miles over three days on some really fun trails. Between the three of us, we're bringing either eight or nine well-sorted trail rigs, and are tackling a 12 mile loop on Saturday.

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