Tamiya Avante vs Schumacher Cat XLS vs Yokomo C4 vs Kyosho Optima Mid SE

[Mechanic AH 581]

Has anyone have experience running some of these cars side by side? 

So I've been daydreaming about the Yokomo 870c and was doing some research (and I was also reading up on an Egress instruction manual) when I came across this December 1988 article from RCCA magazine where they tested four top '80s 4WD off-road buggies: Schumacher Cat XLS, Yokomo C4, Kyosho Optima Mid SE, and the Tamiya Avante.

I remember these cars but don't have any of them or experience driving them. I'm curious if anyone here has been able to drive/build a few of them to compare. I'd love to hear your thoughts or even experience seeing them on track. What they were actually like when driven back in the day. And if RCCA's notes on the Avante was spot on. I'm quite curious too because I have an unbuilt Cat and Egress and it'll take me some time to get to it.

In the article they used similar electronics and motors for all cars to keep everything even. They averaged out lap times (I believe there were multiple drivers) and assessed the pros and cons of each car. Interestingly, they also included notes on assembly and ease of build/maintenance—I think this makes sense to evaluate and consider because these cars live on the track and if the car is always being repaired then there's a lot of downtime/less playtime.

In terms of performance results (lap average/fastest lap):

#4 Tamiya Avante (14.58 seconds/13s plus)
#3 Yokomo C4 (14.29s/13s flat)
#2 Kyosho Optima Mid SE (13.83s/12.94s)
#1 Schumacher Cat XLS (low to mid 13s/12.5s minus)

Some key notes where that the Avante was heavy, erratic handling, sensitive steering, didn't like jumps, and then the serious problem is its suspension geometry where the fronts have limited travel combined with a poor rear suspension--but on flat ground and tight turns it did quite well. The C4 was predictable but tended to slide so this cost it some time, and there were concerns with the exposed belts going to the differentials. The Optima has good acceleration and cornering, was consistent and soaked up jumps much more smoothly than the rest, but they noted that the platinum shocks might be hurting the car. Then the Cat, it just seems like it's just a driver's car, when dialed the others couldn't match it. But they said it's one of the most taxing to maintain and keep running consistently fast laps.

In terms of assembly, ease of build, and maintenance:

#4 Schumacher Cat XLS
One of the most difficult to assemble, some parts have to be modified to properly fit and it's not indicated in the manual. Less-than explicit directions. They even recommend to enlist a veteran to help through the assembly.

#3 Tamiya Avante
Closely follows the Cat. Many fasteners that require thread-locking compound, those that can't use TLC (like suspension links) must remain free for adjustment--constantly vibrate loose, only saving grace is the superb instruction manual.

#2 Yokomo C4
Relatively easy due to the simple design and low number of parts but had some issues with the rear belt tension. 

#1 Kyosho Optima Mid SE
Even though the assembly took longer than usual, the explicit instructions helped a lot and it seems like there were no major issues. However, there wasn't much room for mounting electronics and it made it a bit of a challenge. Interestingly, in the same magazine, a different article/author noted that it took 11 hours to build (compared to the original Mid which took him 21 hours due to the poor instruction/assembly manual).

What an article, very interesting. But I still wish there's current re-release of the 870c.

So with all that said I have a few more questions:

- How is the Egress performance compared to the Avante? Was there a lot of improvement and is noticeable? Handling, acceleration, jumps, reliability, etc. Where do you think it would place in the rankings above?

- Anyone here have a Kyosho Optima Mid SE and Optima/Javelin? Any thoughts on how they compare? Performance and assembly?

- If you can only have one of the four cars in the article, what car would you take?

Thanks!

Added some screenshots from the article (Sorry it's only a glimpse ). I read the article on archive.org if you're curious.

[t3garett 268]

Very interesting ! Thanks for the magazine article. I only have thé cat xls and avante and egress but I agree totally with thé article : the cat is far superior in handling speed and reliability but much harder to build. 

Build your cat !!!!

[Dakratfink 965]

My first hobby grade was a turbo Optima Mid which was replaced with a Yokomo YZ10. ( after a one sided collision with a 1:1car ) My dad build most if not all of the Kyosho, and I remember helping a little more on the Yokomo. 
Driving wise I enjoyed driving both. The Optima Mid was the RC I learned to drive on and had probably had more races and wheel time with . The Yokomo was also a pleasure to drive and always seemed planted and consistent and it did power slide a lot, which suites my throttle happy pre teen driving style. 
I still have my Yokomo, and have gotten it running with some vintage electronics and home made Nihm saddle packs. However, it does not hook up on any surface on hard dry rotting old tires. 

[Killajb 1546]

Oh good times..  I actually remember buying this magazine back in the day and dreaming about how such a race between all four would've looked like.   Curiously..  any opinions as to how a modern-day re-re shootout would fair?

 

Yokomo - N/A

2017 Schumacher Cat XLS

Avante (black special or whatever version you want to include)

2019 Turbo Optima

[Dakratfink 965]

Oh good times..  I actually remember buying this magazine back in the day and dreaming about how such a race between all four would've looked like.   Curiously..  any opinions as to how a modern-day re-re shootout would fair?

There was a at least one guy at my local club who ran a Cat, I don’t remember anyone running an Avante back then, but I thought they were pretty cool and truck looking in magazine articles like above. At the time I couldn’t believe it came from the same company that made Grasshoppers, Lunchboxes , Clods etc. 

[hedge 314]

I raced one of the early CAT bitd and it was one planted car. I came from a highly modified (FRP chassis, shocks on all corners) Hotshot and this thing blew that away as well as the Associated RC10s. I ran it for around 3 months then swapped it for a PB mini mustang which while slower at worlds level was more suited to my driving style and was for me at least a step up from the CAT.

[Barnoid 71]

Own the Avante, Egress, Avante 2001,an  ordinary Mid, Turbo Mid and a LWB Mid. But all of this is highly subjective, and I'm a terrible driver!

The Avante is heavy, it's true but this is less of an issue now with lipo etc. The front suspension as stock is terrible, but this was sorted by putting original RC10 dampers on, for more droop and upswing. Made a HUGE difference. It's not as planted as the Turbo Mid, but it's not far off. Twitchier in the corners, and it'd perhaps have the advantage on extremely satisfy tracks, but to;s not as stable in the air, and adjusting is is way more fiddly. It's also a lot more fragile, even in the rere guise. Kyosho use much better plastics.

The Egress (and the 2001, for that matter)  is definitely a step up, and can stand toe to toe much more easily with the Turbo optima, although turn in isn't as good, it's more stable on the straights. Longer wheel base etc.  It's still beaten in handling by the LWB Mid though - but that's pretty modified, so I'm not sure it really counts. I've put a slipper on it etc etc.

[Mechanic AH 581]

16 hours ago, t3garett said:

Very interesting ! Thanks for the magazine article. I only have thé cat xls and avante and egress but I agree totally with thé article : the cat is far superior in handling speed and reliability but much harder to build. 

Build your cat !!!!

Thanks for the feedback! I will build it maybe in the next month or so :). By the way, what pinion gear did you end up using on your Cat? And did you go brushless? Thanks!

[Mechanic AH 581]

12 hours ago, Dakratfink said:

My first hobby grade was a turbo Optima Mid which was replaced with a Yokomo YZ10. ( after a one sided collision with a 1:1car ) My dad build most if not all of the Kyosho, and I remember helping a little more on the Yokomo. 
Driving wise I enjoyed driving both. The Optima Mid was the RC I learned to drive on and had probably had more races and wheel time with . The Yokomo was also a pleasure to drive and always seemed planted and consistent and it did power slide a lot, which suites my throttle happy pre teen driving style. 
I still have my Yokomo, and have gotten it running with some vintage electronics and home made Nihm saddle packs. However, it does not hook up on any surface on hard dry rotting old tires. 

I'm jealous you have a Yokomo. I guess the article was quite accurate about it sliding a lot—which also could be fun. One day you'll probably get some new tires for it :).

[Mechanic AH 581]

 

12 hours ago, Barnoid said:

Own the Avante, Egress, Avante 2001,an  ordinary Mid, Turbo Mid and a LWB Mid. But all of this is highly subjective, and I'm a terrible driver!

The Avante is heavy, it's true but this is less of an issue now with lipo etc. The front suspension as stock is terrible, but this was sorted by putting original RC10 dampers on, for more droop and upswing. Made a HUGE difference. It's not as planted as the Turbo Mid, but it's not far off. Twitchier in the corners, and it'd perhaps have the advantage on extremely satisfy tracks, but to;s not as stable in the air, and adjusting is is way more fiddly. It's also a lot more fragile, even in the rere guise. Kyosho use much better plastics.

The Egress (and the 2001, for that matter)  is definitely a step up, and can stand toe to toe much more easily with the Turbo optima, although turn in isn't as good, it's more stable on the straights. Longer wheel base etc.  It's still beaten in handling by the LWB Mid though - but that's pretty modified, so I'm not sure it really counts. I've put a slipper on it etc etc.

 

Sounds like the article pretty much confirms the Avante's characteristics. I had hoped that the Egress would at least be on par with the later Optimas. Any idea what year the LWB Mid was released?

[Barnoid 71]

23 hours ago, Mechanic AH said:

 

 

Any idea what year the LWB Mid was released?

I think it was 1989 or thereabouts. This is a highly subjective N=1, BTW - the Egress is a pretty much standard rere, whereas the Mid has carbon up the wazoo, an associated slipper and and modern shocks. It's a scratch built; I made it from spares and what have you a couple of years ago. So they're really not all that comparable. I'd not say there's much in it, and to be honest I've probably spent more time tuning the Mid, and I'm probably more used to its handling. I do think that it's more sturdy than the Egress, though. That's definitely something that Kyosho seem to generally have in their favour over Tamiya. AS far as improving the Egress handling is concerned, my next task is trying to sort out the weight distribution - I think it's a bit lop sided if you run lipo. Non-adjustable rear toe in is also annoying... but of course that was also the case with the vintage Mid (although the optima rere arms are a straight fit, and give you toe-in options). I love (and race) both of them, BTW.

 

[mud4fun 1696]

Never owned a Kyosho or Yokomo but would tend to agree with the article, the Avante was naff, many of my friends had Schumacher or Associated buggies and they would slaughter the Avante on a track. The closest I came to matching them was in a Thundershot on a dirt track with gentle jumps which pretty much says it all about the '88 Avante, it was bettered by its own 'toy' grade cheap older brethren,.

Avante2001 (basically Egress without the posh alloy shocks or carbon) was a far superior buggy despite relatively few differences and I have matched or even bettered Cats with it on a track.

Avante fans shut your eyes now and don't read this - I bought several 88 Avante's back in the late 90's early 2000's when they were cheap, bought them for parts for my Avante2001 (mainly gearboxes), binned the chassis and heavy alloy parts and instead built up a set of three Avante 2001's from the usable parts...... one of them is still running now with only a light rebuild and the other two are being rebuilt at the moment, one as an Egress. I have all the parts to build to 88 Avante spec but really can't be bothered because they are just so inferior to Egress/Avante2001 spec for actually running, racing and bashing.

Sorry if this offends. Just my opinion.

 

[Why me? 24]

I think if you took a look at the club racing scene back in the day you would find that reflected pretty much what the article discovered. I used to race Kyosho, starting with an Optima Pro, then upgrading to Optima mid, Lazer ZX and then Lazer ZXR. The majority of guys in my club ran Kyosho as they performed well, were robust, easy to work on and parts availability was good. I don’t think anyone raced a Tamiya, (Seen as more of a ‘toy’) or Associated, Yokomo etc ( too ‘exotic’). There was a couple of Schumachers in the club but they were owned by guys who raced at national level too if I remember correctly.
 

[Wheel_Nut 322]

The Cat XLS was completely dominant after its release.   It was light weight, well balanced, and had surprising amount of grip. 

I never raced a 4WD car, but about 50% of the cars racing were cat XLS, especially the guys who were the most competitive.   Yokomo YZ870 was also competitive, but not as popular as the high cost and limited parts support put many people off.   Kyosho Optima mid had a very loyal following, and there were guys who got really good performance from it.   Avante was very much obsolete from a racing point of view, although it was only the new racers who ever attempted to race one.

[Mechanic AH 581]

2 hours ago, Barnoid said:

I think it was 1989 or thereabouts. This is a highly subjective N=1, BTW - the Egress is a pretty much standard rere, whereas the Mid has carbon up the wazoo, an associated slipper and and modern shocks. It's a scratch built; I made it from spares and what have you a couple of years ago. So they're really not all that comparable. I'd not say there's much in it, and to be honest I've probably spent more time tuning the Mid, and I'm probably more used to its handling. I do think that it's more sturdy than the Egress, though. That's definitely something that Kyosho seem to generally have in their favour over Tamiya. AS far as improving the Egress handling is concerned, my next task is trying to sort out the weight distribution - I think it's a bit lop sided if you run lipo. Non-adjustable rear toe in is also annoying... but of course that was also the case with the vintage Mid (although the optima rere arms are a straight fit, and give you toe-in options). I love (and race) both of them, BTW.

 

Thanks! I guess with Kyosho being more race oriented and Tamiya model oriented it makes sense. That's interesting about the weight distribution and I think that can help a lot. In the article specs the Avante is the least balanced in terms of weight distribution and the rest are pretty much in rage of one another. So I assume the Egress will be closer to the Avante. (I will run NiMH on the Egress.)

 

2 hours ago, mud4fun said:

Never owned a Kyosho or Yokomo but would tend to agree with the article, the Avante was naff, many of my friends had Schumacher or Associated buggies and they would slaughter the Avante on a track. The closest I came to matching them was in a Thundershot on a dirt track with gentle jumps which pretty much says it all about the '88 Avante, it was bettered by its own 'toy' grade cheap older brethren,.

Avante2001 (basically Egress without the posh alloy shocks or carbon) was a far superior buggy despite relatively few differences and I have matched or even bettered Cats with it on a track.

Avante fans shut your eyes now and don't read this - I bought several 88 Avante's back in the late 90's early 2000's when they were cheap, bought them for parts for my Avante2001 (mainly gearboxes), binned the chassis and heavy alloy parts and instead built up a set of three Avante 2001's from the usable parts...... one of them is still running now with only a light rebuild and the other two are being rebuilt at the moment, one as an Egress. I have all the parts to build to 88 Avante spec but really can't be bothered because they are just so inferior to Egress/Avante2001 spec for actually running, racing and bashing.

Sorry if this offends. Just my opinion.

 

The more I read your various feedback on the Avante the more I put it on the back of my list of cars to get! . All fun aside, I do find every bit of it very valuable insight.

 

34 minutes ago, Wheel_Nut said:

The Cat XLS was completely dominant after its release.   It was light weight, well balanced, and had surprising amount of grip. 

I never raced a 4WD car, but about 50% of the cars racing were cat XLS, especially the guys who were the most competitive.   Yokomo YZ870 was also competitive, but not as popular as the high cost and limited parts support put many people off.   Kyosho Optima mid had a very loyal following, and there were guys who got really good performance from it.   Avante was very much obsolete from a racing point of view, although it was only the new racers who ever attempted to race one.

Thanks for notes on the 870. Sounds like it would be embarrassing to show up at the track as a newbie with an Avante back then.

[mud4fun 1696]

2 minutes ago, Mechanic AH said:

The more I read your various feedback on the Avante the more I put it on the back of my list of cars to get! . All fun aside, I do find every bit of it very valuable insight.

LOL

Please don't let me put you off. We all have different ideas of what is good or bad depending on intended use.

I RUN my buggies hard, so I want reliability, ruggedness and ease of repair over 'bling'.

However I do fully understand, appreciate and respect those that just collect the cars for display. Each to their own.

My views are always with regards using the cars in anger. Something that very few people seem to have experience of when it comes to '88 Avante's! Most people (from reading their forum posts) have either not owned one or at best have only driven one gently on some grass in their back garden. They will have entirely different views to somebody that actually races the damned things and has to pay huge costs for repairs down to shoddy design....

IMHO the 88' Avante was designed to look good on a shelf whereas the Egress was designed to perform. I would always choose an Egress over an Avante 1988/2011. BUT I would still like to see Tamiya supply alloy hubs on the re-re versions instead of the cheap, nasty and brittle plastic hubs that they supply. I replaced all mine with Yeah Racing alloys hubs and they have taken loads of direct hits now at speed and no damage at all to hubs or carriers. Why coudln't Tamiya have done this? for the price they are charging I would think it mandatory!

 

[hedge 314]

I would add that outside of a very short amount of time with the SRBs - highly modified at that - Tamiyas only real racing success was the TRF touring cars with Marc Rheinard.

[slimleeroy 241]

On 10/15/2020 at 9:47 AM, Barnoid said:

Own the Avante, Egress, Avante 2001,an  ordinary Mid, Turbo Mid and a LWB Mid. But all of this is highly subjective, and I'm a terrible driver!

The Avante is heavy, it's true but this is less of an issue now with lipo etc. The front suspension as stock is terrible, but this was sorted by putting original RC10 dampers on, for more droop and upswing. Made a HUGE difference. It's not as planted as the Turbo Mid, but it's not far off. Twitchier in the corners, and it'd perhaps have the advantage on extremely satisfy tracks, but to;s not as stable in the air, and adjusting is is way more fiddly. It's also a lot more fragile, even in the rere guise. Kyosho use much better plastics.

The Egress (and the 2001, for that matter)  is definitely a step up, and can stand toe to toe much more easily with the Turbo optima, although turn in isn't as good, it's more stable on the straights. Longer wheel base etc.  It's still beaten in handling by the LWB Mid though - but that's pretty modified, so I'm not sure it really counts. I've put a slipper on it etc etc.

extremely satisfy tracks,????

[Rb4276 803]

I wish i still had this magazine, i loved the color they did of the avante as a kid

[Barnoid 71]

I run my Avante occasionally on track days, and I love it - I'd not *dream* of selling it - but there's no question it requires a bit more 'babying' than the Egress, or the Mid. Just things like checking bolts etc. I don't think the rere is *especially* fragile, but there are definitely other buggies I'd choose for thrashing.

[Barnoid 71]

10 hours ago, slimleeroy said:

extremely satisfy tracks,????

Haha! Thanks, spellchecker. I can't remember the exact word I was going for (or why the computer would substitute 'satisfy' for it) but I meant 'twisty' or 'tight' or 'wiggly' perhaps? These sort of tracks are all very satisfy 🤣😂

[ruebiracer 1043]

On 10/17/2020 at 8:01 PM, hedge said:

I would add that outside of a very short amount of time with the SRBs - highly modified at that - Tamiyas only real racing success was the TRF touring cars with Marc Rheinard.

Depends on how you define success. A worlds championship for sure not. But The Frog was "German master 1984 in 2WD", and the Astute was also successful with Jamie Booth on the steering.

[Wooders28 4718]

On 10/16/2020 at 11:01 PM, Why me? said:

I think if you took a look at the club racing scene back in the day you would find that reflected pretty much what the article discovered. I used to race Kyosho, starting with an Optima Pro, then upgrading to Optima mid, Lazer ZX and then Lazer ZXR. The majority of guys in my club ran Kyosho as they performed well, were robust, easy to work on and parts availability was good. I don’t think anyone raced a Tamiya, (Seen as more of a ‘toy’) or Associated, Yokomo etc ( too ‘exotic’). There was a couple of Schumachers in the club but they were owned by guys who raced at national level too if I remember correctly.
 

Pretty much my experience.

I ran an Ultima in 2wd and a Mid Custom in 4wd, as did a few others.

New guys where the guys that appeared with Tamiyas ,although we ran a , Fun race , where we'd run lunchbox's and MB's etc, so everyone got track time.

When someone turned up with a Pro Cat, it was normally coupled with aluminum cases ,full of matched cells and modified motor selection, we all knew then, we where battling for 2nd....🙄😂

 

[ruebiracer 1043]

On 10/18/2020 at 11:18 AM, Barnoid said:

I run my Avante occasionally on track days, and I love it - I'd not *dream* of selling it - but there's no question it requires a bit more 'babying' than the Egress, or the Mid. Just things like checking bolts etc. I don't think the rere is *especially* fragile, but there are definitely other buggies I'd choose for thrashing.

Great, it deserves your love!

I´m a complete Tamiya nut since childhood, and was lucky to get a Vanquish as a kid from my parents. I loved it, and also the fact that it was the cheaper Avante (and was finally affordable for my family), but had already some improvements like wheelbase, one piece linking rods etc. The last 3-4 years I began to realize the importance of the Avante for Tamiya  and also the rest of the period racing scene. We don´t have to talk about the well known fail in success, and Fumito Taki maybe developing in a false direction for the tracks of the time. But what will always remain is the beauty of it´s design, and that the design does not stop under the body. It´s probably one of the most "designed in all details" buggy of that time. I mean, look at the first picture of the great review. The Avante is from views simply stunning, compared to the bulky, edgy designed  other cars.

And would the Avante be so tempting, if it would have had the success intended by Tamiya on the track? Could also be, that it would be a little boring, to own the car that everybody was using , because it had the best chances to win? I think that´s part of the legend. And legends stay in mind. This said, I feel nowadays more and more the need, to own an Avante some day. In terms of assembly quality, it was for sure one of the best. I remember reading the model car reviews as a kid, and when e.g. a Schumacher or something else was reviewd, they always got good notes on the driving, but building always got some drawbacks and rework of specialparts and details. When it came to recommend a kit to a beginner, Tamiya won most of the time, also because of their excellent manuals, that explained every step in detail, even with a good translation.

Just some (for sure not always objective) thoughts from "Tamiya me", but maybe some of you feel the same way, or at least can follow some of my thoughts. And what would we have to do nowadays, when we not had to improve our old Tamiyas for some Vintage competition, to try to get revenge on the track!  

But seems I always liked to be the underdog, which in fact was Tamiya most of the racing time...

Each to their own, but nowadays in my mind you cannot complain on an Avante 2011 because of it´s performance. Everybody knows, it did not win the Worlds championships. If you have it and cannot enjoy it, then maybe you bought the wrong car, or you had the wrong intentions?

Just don´t want to offend anyone, it´s still my personal view of the game, developed over many years of "Tamiya love".

 

 

[73robb 132]

On 10/17/2020 at 12:24 AM, Wheel_Nut said:

The Cat XLS was completely dominant after its release.   It was light weight, well balanced, and had surprising amount of grip. 

I never raced a 4WD car, but about 50% of the cars racing were cat XLS, especially the guys who were the most competitive.   Yokomo YZ870 was also competitive, but not as popular as the high cost and limited parts support put many people off.   Kyosho Optima mid had a very loyal following, and there were guys who got really good performance from it.   Avante was very much obsolete from a racing point of view, although it was only the new racers who ever attempted to race one.

This was pretty much how it was at my local clubs. The Cat was hard to build & tune, but if you got it right it was great. The Mid was quick out of the box, the Yokomo was competitive but let down by poor parts backup, and the Avante was never really seen in races (there were some boomerangs though).

 

I progressed from a Boomerang to Optima Pro, SWB Mid, LWB Mid and finally a Procat, but the Mids were by far the best cars I drove, both for ease of driving, maintenance and build quality.