Just got a TG10 Mk1 PRO...and I know NOTHING about nitro cars!

[RCRLMichael 11]

So as per the title, I just picked up a rather nice example of what I believe is a largely unused Tamiya TG10 Mk1 PRO 1/10 4WD nitro powered on-road car.

And frankly, I know NOTHING about nitro cars...and I know even less about this particular car!

The previous owner did say the engine is an RB Concepts C12 3-port nitro 2 stroke.  And upon inspection, it appears to have all it's electronics - Futaba S3003 servos for both steering and throttle controls, as well as a Futaba R123F 3 channel micro receiver.  I believe this is a 75MHz FM receiver.

I'm extremely new to nitro R/C anything so this is going to be a steep learning curve.  I'm definitely going to need a transmitter as the car didn't come with one.  I'm also unsure if the engine is supposed to be pull-start or bump start (there looks to be a housing with a hole where there once may have been a pull handle and cord).  Trouble is, RB Concepts is no longer in business so finding parts for this engine won't be easy.

Let the fun begin, I guess...

If anyone's interested, I have posted an unboxing video to YouTube the day it arrived (literally yesterday). 

 

 

[Fabia130vRS 2098]

what I have learned from m first nitro car is... dont. rather dont. 

 

I bought a Carson CH04 belt driven chassis

[RCRLMichael 11]

7 hours ago, Fabia130vRS said:

what I have learned from m first nitro car is... dont. rather dont. 

 

I bought a Carson CH04 belt driven chassis

I know nitro isn't quite as "simple" as electric, but it can't be THAT bad, can it?

[Collin 2145]

NO not at all! If you have a slight feeling for the motor running rich or lean it's very good fun.

[acprc 1602]

Love it, you have done very well for yourself. Not knowing what you paid that looks to be a TG-10 Mk1 Pro with the Long Span suspension set. If the kit originally came with that body you have kit number 49172. The original engine would of been a Tamiya FS-12LT. The body was a TG-10 optional body released for racing in the Tamiya race classes but also packaged with kit 49172

The recoil cord is indeed broken and the handle missing.

If you are planning on running it then I would look for another engine maybe. There are some nice OS engines about that would suit the chassis. If a beginner with these cars then a new engine will be more forgiving and will give you a know starting point. There is nothing worse than trying to get a worn out engine working.

A cheap 2.4ghz Transmitter and RX would replace the older ones fitted but the servos will be fine.

Manual for the TG-10 is here https://www.tamiya.com/english/rc/rcmanual/tg10mk1.pdf

Manual for the Long Span set is here: https://www.tamiya.com/english/rc/rcmanual/tg10mk1longsus.pdf

[RCRLMichael 11]

4 minutes ago, acprc said:

Love it, you have done very well for yourself. Not knowing what you paid that looks to be a TG-10 Mk1 Pro with the Long Span suspension set. If the kit originally came with that body you have kit number 49172. The original engine would of been a Tamiya FS-12LT. The body was a TG-10 optional body released for racing in the Tamiya race classes but also packaged with kit 49172

The recoil cord is indeed broken and the handle missing.

If you are planning on running it then I would look for another engine maybe. There are some nice OS engines about that would suit the chassis. If a beginner with these cars then a new engine will be more forgiving and will give you a know starting point. There is nothing worse than trying to get a worn out engine working.

A cheap 2.4ghz Transmitter and RX would replace the older ones fitted but the servos will be fine.

Manual for the TG-10 is here https://www.tamiya.com/english/rc/rcmanual/tg10mk1.pdf

Manual for the Long Span set is here: https://www.tamiya.com/english/rc/rcmanual/tg10mk1longsus.pdf

Thank you for all the great information!  I've been scouring the interwebs trying to find out as much info as I can about this model.  I've learned a bit, and several folks with more experience have contacted me with more info.  Love the R/C community.

I've actually just ordered a replacement pull-start assembly as well as a pull-start blanking cover as well.  RB Concept parts (the engine manufacturer) are somewhat hard to come across; RB was an Italian manufacturer of very high performance RC racing engines, but they went out of business in 2015.  I'm with you - I'm thinking a replacement engine might be in order.  I don't think the engine that's installed is worn out at all (in fact, it looks virtually brand new... there's literally no wear or discoloration...if it has ever been run, it may have only been once) but given it's rarity, I'd rather not risk damaging it given my inexperience with nitro.  Unfortunately, that inexperience means I'm just not sure what nitro engine I should be looking to get.

And I do have a RadioLink RC6GS V2 I can use with this model - just need to get a second R7FG receiver if I decide to go that rought.  But by the same token, a Futaba transmitter that will work this this setup isn't difficult or expensive so either way I'm sure will be fine.

I'm excited about this model.  I honestly thought it was going to be a basket case not worth fixing; the original eBay auction photos weren't very good, and the seller even stated no body or electronics would be included, which is clearly not the case.  I think this is a great score, and will prove to be the gateway into nitro R/C for me.

Thanks again for the great info!

BTW - if you watch til the end of the video, I do reveal what I paid for the model :-)

[Collin 2145]

There is still some nitor in the thank, or maybe the left over oil.

[RCRLMichael 11]

Just now, Collin said:

There is still some nitor in the thank, or maybe the left over oil.

It's a strange green goo. I honestly have no idea what it is. I'm assuming it's old fuel that just broken down from years of sitting...?

Unless I'm told otherwise, my plan is to take the tank off and clean it out with some denatured alcohol soon.

[Collin 2145]

Most probably the nitromethanol is gone and the oil is left. Someone tried to run it and put it away very soon. Another one tried to run it again after a while and broke the recoil starter because the oil was stucked in the engine and didnt turn over.

This is how it could have happened. So be carefull if you try to start this motor again, bevor you have done a propper inspection.

[Fabia130vRS 2098]

4 hours ago, RCRLMichael said:

I know nitro isn't quite as "simple" as electric, but it can't be THAT bad, can it?

As @acprc said. I was a beginner with a worn out engine. took away all the fun and drove the car twice.

my friend then bought a Carson CR01 the shaft driven chassis. was much easier to start, we tried to start it two weeks ago... after 2 years not being driven.. no chance without mainting. 

[Fabia130vRS 2098]

22 minutes ago, RCRLMichael said:

It's a strange green goo. I honestly have no idea what it is. I'm assuming it's old fuel that just broken down from years of sitting...?

Unless I'm told otherwise, my plan is to take the tank off and clean it out with some denatured alcohol soon.

there is a specific oil you can drop it through the carburetor to unblock the engine. old oil is like glue in those engines.

[RCRLMichael 11]

33 minutes ago, Collin said:

Most probably the nitromethanol is gone and the oil is left. Someone tried to run it and put it away very soon. Another one tried to run it again after a while and broke the recoil starter because the oil was stucked in the engine and didnt turn over.

This is how it could have happened. So be carefull if you try to start this motor again, bevor you have done a propper inspection.

You're probably right about that.  I'm really glad I posted about this before trying anything really stupid like trying to run it without a thorough inspection.

I have noticed the engine won't turn over when I try to turn on the anodized blue flywheel.  Most likely the engine is gummed up as you've suggested.

Thanks for the tips - I'll definitely make sure the motor spins free before trying to start it.

[Collin 2145]

Does not need any specific. I use 2stroke oil because I have it already. MOS2 is fine too, anything which is not aggressiv and dissolves the hardened oil. Just give it a good rinse with nitro gasoline befor you run it the first time then.

All this afterrun oil is just marketing in my opinion.

 

And one for the Ego, really nice car you purchased!

[RCRLMichael 11]

1 minute ago, Collin said:

Does not need any specific. I use 2stroke oil because I have it already. MOS2 is fine too, anything which is not aggressiv. Just give it a good rinse with nitro gasoline befor you run it the first time then.

All this afterrun oil is just marketing in my opinion.

I do have some denatured alcohol... will that work to help clean things up a bit?

If not, I don't have any Nitro so I'm going to have to visit a local hobby shop to see if I can get some.  I have ordered a Nitro RC "starter set" which includes a glow starter, some T-wrenches, some screw drivers, and fuel fill bottle as well.  Probably a good idea for me to wait for that before I get too far in trying to start this thing huh?

[SupraChrgd82 1434]

I suggest:

1) Read several nitro tuning guides to gain an understanding of needle settings.

2) Use 10% nitro fuel rather than 20% to keep the wear-and-tear to a minimum.

3) Use "after run oil" to keep the motor lubricated and oxidation-free between use.

4) Carefully rebuild the pull-start.  It can be done easily if you are careful not to allow the spring to uncoil during disassembly.  

[Collin 2145]

I would not take pure alcohol. Not if you cant oil everything after imediatly. Alcohol sucks water out of the air and can gain oxydation, also alcohol is not really good with rubber seals. I would use mild multi-purpose oil instead or some of your coming nitro fuel. 

Another thing said. There is a lot of philosophy around how to run nitro cars. Some do this, some do that and I do it another way. Does not mean I am right but it works for my purpose.

Nitro fuel conains methanol alcohol as well, so it will cause oxydation inside the motor if you leave it there for "long" time. So its healthy to put something into your motor after running it. Some use "after-run-oil" I use 2-stroke full synthetic oil. Sometimes I use MOS2, sometimes some gearbox oil, just what I have next to me : ) but beeing shure the nitromethanol is out of the motor.

I would not recommend 10% nitro fuel, 16% minimum. The nitromethanol it that thing what cools your motor down. You can buy excellent fuel in the U.S.

[RCRLMichael 11]

3 hours ago, SupraChrgd82 said:

I suggest:

1) Read several nitro tuning guides to gain an understanding of needle settings.

2) Use 10% nitro fuel rather than 20% to keep the wear-and-tear to a minimum.

3) Use "after run oil" to keep the motor lubricated and oxidation-free between use.

4) Carefully rebuild the pull-start.  It can be done easily if you are careful not to allow the spring to uncoil during disassembly.  

Thanks so much for these great suggestions.

I agree, needle settings is something I DEFINITELY need to wrap my head around! I often see folks adjust their needle valves while the engine is running.  I'm sure they're listening for something, but I'm not quite sure what that is. I guess that's where experience really does become super-important.

As for the nitro fuel percent, that's another area I am absolutely clueless about.  I didn't even realize there was a difference - I figured nitro was nitro...everyone runs the same (sort of like in your garden tools).  So the higher the nitro percentage, the less wear-and-tear on the engine...?

I've already ordered a new pull-start assembly, but when I pull the old one off I'll definitely try to rebuild/repair it if I can.  In my experience with vintage RC stuff, the more spare parts you have, the better.

[RCRLMichael 11]

3 hours ago, Collin said:

I would not take pure alcohol. Not if you cant oil everything after imediatly. Alcohol sucks water out of the air and can gain oxydation, also alcohol is not really good with rubber seals. I would use mild multi-purpose oil instead or some of your coming nitro fuel. 

Another thing said. There is a lot of philosophy around how to run nitro cars. Some do this, some do that and I do it another way. Does not mean I am right but it works for my purpose.

Nitro fuel conains methanol alcohol as well, so it will cause oxydation inside the motor if you leave it there for "long" time. So its healthy to put something into your motor after running it. Some use "after-run-oil" I use 2-stroke full synthetic oil. Sometimes I use MOS2, sometimes some gearbox oil, just what I have next to me : ) but beeing shure the nitromethanol is out of the motor.

I would not recommend 10% nitro fuel, 16% minimum. The nitromethanol it that thing what cools your motor down. You can buy excellent fuel in the U.S.

Good call on not using pure alcohol to help clean out the engine. I didn't think of the alcohol washing away much needed lubrication to prevent oxidation.

Also very good to know that I need to get the nitro methane out of the engine once it's done running.  I didn't realize that was the case.  I can tell you, its extremely difficult to turn the engine over as it is right now, so I have a feeling it's either extremely gummed up inside OR there's a lot of corrosion in it.  Any value in pulling the glow plug out and spraying some PB Blaster into the cylinder and letting it sit a few days?  Do you think that'll do anything or be more harmful than good?

The whole nitro percentage thing is a big mystery to me, so I'm going to be at the mercy of what's suggested by those of you who have come before me.

[Fabia130vRS 2098]

Quote

I agree, needle settings is something I DEFINITELY need to wrap my head around! I often see folks adjust their needle valves while the engine is running.  I'm sure they're listening for something, but I'm not quite sure what that is. I guess that's where experience really does become super-important.

 

From my expirience in 2T stroke engines... giving throttle should raise the rpm fast and when released throttle the rpm should drop to idle without delay.  If there is not enough fuel then the rpm will remain a little bit higher before they drop to idle after releasing the throttle.

 

also if there is the sound as when the car is cold while giving throttle it could be too rich. But important is to let it heat up a little bit always before adjusting. 
 

There are also pre-adjustments that can be done to the carb if it is impossible to start the motor. Adjust the slider to 1,5mm and the fuel/air ratio screw on 2,5turns. Something like rhat

[SupraChrgd82 1434]

A higher percentage of nitro will yield 3 things; more power, more heat, and increased wear.  

10% nitro is regarded as the "middle ground", by not placing excessive strain on the engine.  The "nitro" prefix refers to nitric acid which has additional oxygen molecules supporting combustion in the way that nitrous oxide is used as a power adder in automobiles.

Don't use alcohols following use, as it can be corrosive and washes away lubricating oils. Do use alcohols to sporadically wash engine components during rebuild.

After-run oil has corrosion inhibitors and coats metal parts from coming to contact with oxygen and moisture in the air that can contribute to oxidation.

Regarding tuning, you'll be looking for 2 things during acceleration; the engine will either shut off or "bog".  Those are the primary indicators that the main needle will require adjustment.

 It is also advisable to fill the fuel tank before it empties during runs. If it empties during a run, the engine will encounter a brief period of lean mixture which is abusive to the piston and con-rod bearings.

Although nitro is unpopular today, the TG-10 is a unique car that deserves gentle care.

[Collin 2145]

Soak the motor with this  PB Blaster bevor you try to turn it over mechanicaly. Also the carb, the hardened oil may block needle jets.

I do set the carb basicly by how motor sounds when opening throttle by hand with car/wheels in the air. The motor need to react quick on throttle. I go from rich to lean until finding the sweet spot. Usually you have tweo needles, one for idle/low rev and the other top needle for high rev. I set the top needle trough running full throttle while driving. Also the ammount of blue smoke out of the pipe is an indicator. No smoke, no good. Checkting top end temperatur. Dipping some spit on the head with my finger, does it start cooking imediatly, then its too hot/to lean.

Again, there is a lot of philosophy behing. And again, more nitro% means more punch(more wear obviously) but also cooling down the motor temp.

 

[Juggular 5229]

That is a score.  

Nitro is fun.  Driving needs to be adjusted.  Leave enough room to turn around.  It's got brakes, but no reverse.  I only have 2 Tamiya nitros. One of them is TGM-01 Mad Bison (based on TG10).  You can't find it anymore, though.  @acprc bought all of them .   Mine came with a cast engine head that was horrible in terms of cooling.  And the worst was the RC airplane-type compact muffler. It sapped strength.  But yours have good head + a tuned pipe.  Those 2 alone would be like $80 worth of upgrade, let alone a full engine upgrade that would have costed like $180.  

If that green stuff is residual lubricant from the fuel, that means the previous owner just left the fuel without any after-run treatment. For all we know, the engine might not even be properly broken-in!  Somebody built it, ran it for 1 minute and then forgot about it for months.  It got stuck, so he kept yanking the pull-start and ended up breaking the cord.  Depending on the climate, moisture might not have done too much damage. All you may need is un-gunking and rebuilding.  With some luck, it could be as good as new. 

I don't mind using alcohol for disassembly and cleaning.  Alcohol evaporates quickly. By the time you are putting it back together, it'd be gone.  You just don't want to leave it in. You'd want to use something like after-run oil on the piston, crank shaft, etc.  That stays in for years until you run it.   

[Airtightness]  Nitro engines can't have air leaking.  I'm talking about air entering in through the air filter, combustion chamber, tuned pipe, back to fuel tank, and fuel line to carburetor (needle).  RC fuel is fed by "push and pull."  The combustion chamber would want to pull in, but the exhaust also pushes air into the fuel tank and the combustion chamber.  If air leaks anywhere, it's no good.   

When you are rebuilding, you could possibly get a tube of RTV gasket maker. You don't need it, but it's useful. It costs about $8 a tube, and it will last years.  But more often than not, leaks are in the tanks and fuel lines.  The blue silicone tube thing that's connecting the stinger sometimes needs replacing too.  

[Air filter]  Check the sponge.  It is often soaked in oil, and the sponge crumbles to dust after a few years.  

[After-run oil]  I would definitely get a bottle of after-run oil.  You could use other oil, but you definitely don't want stuff like WD40.  WD40 displaces water, you can even replace half the fuel with WD40 and the engine will run.  But long term exposure to WD40 is not good for plastic parts and gaskets.  As mentioned already, exhaust pushes air back into the fuel tank, some oil can sputter back into the plastic tank.  After a season, you could wonder why you need to replace the tank.  

[Needle]  I wouldn't worry too much about it now.  It need to be adjusted all the time, so it's just something you have to experiment.  Cloudy days run quite differently from sunny days.  It's just how much fuel gets into the engine.  Fire it up and adjust it.  You don't want it so rich it stings your eyes, nor do you want it so lean it's too hot to run even before it runs.  Unless you run it in rain, most fuel would have a relatively wide middle range.  

[Fuel]  Keep the fuel bottle airtight also.  Nitro fuel is mostly alcohol.  It loves to suck in moisture and ruin the fun for you.  So keep the bottles wrapped in plastic bags and keep away from moisture.  Never leave the cap open.  I never really cared too much about nitro content.  @Collin is right in that every person has a different way of running things.  Each engine might recommend preferable percentage, but most engines do fine between 10-25%.  However, you don't want too much ignition-power on a .12 engines.  Considering that you've got good cooling fins, finned mounts and a chrome-plated sleeve (probably), I think something like 10-16% would be a good choice.  Unlike electric motors, nitro engines are not designed for gunning it all the time. It's all about temperature.  A cheap temperature gun is a useful tool.   

Good luck!  

P.S. If it's in usable condition, I'd break it in.  

 

[acprc 1602]

4 hours ago, Juggular said:

I only have 2 Tamiya nitros. One of them is TGM-01 Mad Bison (based on TG10).  You can't find it anymore, though.  @acprc bought all of them .   

 

I have the odd one or two!

[RCRLMichael 11]

8 hours ago, Juggular said:

That is a score.  

Nitro is fun.  Driving needs to be adjusted.  Leave enough room to turn around.  It's got brakes, but no reverse.  I only have 2 Tamiya nitros. One of them is TGM-01 Mad Bison (based on TG10).  You can't find it anymore, though.  @acprc bought all of them .   Mine came with a cast engine head that was horrible in terms of cooling.  And the worst was the RC airplane-type compact muffler. It sapped strength.  But yours have good head + a tuned pipe.  Those 2 alone would be like $80 worth of upgrade, let alone a full engine upgrade that would have costed like $180.  

If that green stuff is residual lubricant from the fuel, that means the previous owner just left the fuel without any after-run treatment. For all we know, the engine might not even be properly broken-in!  Somebody built it, ran it for 1 minute and then forgot about it for months.  It got stuck, so he kept yanking the pull-start and ended up breaking the cord.  Depending on the climate, moisture might not have done too much damage. All you may need is un-gunking and rebuilding.  With some luck, it could be as good as new. 

I don't mind using alcohol for disassembly and cleaning.  Alcohol evaporates quickly. By the time you are putting it back together, it'd be gone.  You just don't want to leave it in. You'd want to use something like after-run oil on the piston, crank shaft, etc.  That stays in for years until you run it.   

[Airtightness]  Nitro engines can't have air leaking.  I'm talking about air entering in through the air filter, combustion chamber, tuned pipe, back to fuel tank, and fuel line to carburetor (needle).  RC fuel is fed by "push and pull."  The combustion chamber would want to pull in, but the exhaust also pushes air into the fuel tank and the combustion chamber.  If air leaks anywhere, it's no good.   

When you are rebuilding, you could possibly get a tube of RTV gasket maker. You don't need it, but it's useful. It costs about $8 a tube, and it will last years.  But more often than not, leaks are in the tanks and fuel lines.  The blue silicone tube thing that's connecting the stinger sometimes needs replacing too.  

[Air filter]  Check the sponge.  It is often soaked in oil, and the sponge crumbles to dust after a few years.  

[After-run oil]  I would definitely get a bottle of after-run oil.  You could use other oil, but you definitely don't want stuff like WD40.  WD40 displaces water, you can even replace half the fuel with WD40 and the engine will run.  But long term exposure to WD40 is not good for plastic parts and gaskets.  As mentioned already, exhaust pushes air back into the fuel tank, some oil can sputter back into the plastic tank.  After a season, you could wonder why you need to replace the tank.  

[Needle]  I wouldn't worry too much about it now.  It need to be adjusted all the time, so it's just something you have to experiment.  Cloudy days run quite differently from sunny days.  It's just how much fuel gets into the engine.  Fire it up and adjust it.  You don't want it so rich it stings your eyes, nor do you want it so lean it's too hot to run even before it runs.  Unless you run it in rain, most fuel would have a relatively wide middle range.  

[Fuel]  Keep the fuel bottle airtight also.  Nitro fuel is mostly alcohol.  It loves to suck in moisture and ruin the fun for you.  So keep the bottles wrapped in plastic bags and keep away from moisture.  Never leave the cap open.  I never really cared too much about nitro content.  @Collin is right in that every person has a different way of running things.  Each engine might recommend preferable percentage, but most engines do fine between 10-25%.  However, you don't want too much ignition-power on a .12 engines.  Considering that you've got good cooling fins, finned mounts and a chrome-plated sleeve (probably), I think something like 10-16% would be a good choice.  Unlike electric motors, nitro engines are not designed for gunning it all the time. It's all about temperature.  A cheap temperature gun is a useful tool.   

Good luck!  

P.S. If it's in usable condition, I'd break it in.  

 

Tons of great information here - thank you so much for all this!  It's all going to prove very useful.

I'm still in the process of figuring out exactly what I have with respect to this car (with all my other R/C projects, I get to this one when I can).  But I agree with your sentiment - I believe someone probably ran this car once for a minute or two, left it on a shelf (it looks like a shelf queen...not a scratch on it anywhere) with fuel in it.  The nitro fuel evaporated leaving a green goo behind; no after-run oil or anything of the sort.  Someone then tried to start it much later only to find the engine didn't turn over and ended up breaking the pull-start rope, which is how it sits today.

I've ordered a replacement pull-start assembly to replace the broken one. I've also found a small part is missing, along with a couple of fasteners that I don't think were ever installed.  Nothing critical, but I've ordered replacements nonetheless. I've also printed a copy of the assembly manual as well (which is proving incredibly invaluable).  My next step is to remove the tank and clean out all the green goo in it that's been left behind.  Not a big issue and I'm sure it'll go relatively smoothly.

The bigger issue, however, is the engine won't turn over.  At least not by hand.  I'm reluctant to remove the engine from the car - as I said, I've got a couple of other projects on the go right now, and I don't really want to dive head-long into this one just yet - but trying to turn the engine over at the flywheel is proving nye on impossible as it sits; I should mention, the throttle is also stuck and refuses to move as well.  I'm going to guess that green goo has done a real number on what looks like a brand new engine and has gummed things up rather solid.  I've removed the glow plug and air filter, and peering down either I can't see any sort of dirt or corrosion.  I have been spraying tiny amounts of PB Blaster penetrating oil over the last couple of days down both the carb and the cylinder in the hopes of loosening things up, but still no luck.  I'll continue to do this for a little while longer and see how that goes before pulling the engine out of the vehicle.  It's also been suggested that nitro fuel itself can also be used as an effective cleaning agent which I will definitely try once I get my hands on some.

I won't lie though, despite this minor setback, I am genuinely chuffed to bits just looking at this car.

[Collin 2145]

Just keep in mind that nitro fuel is really unhealthy. I even dont like to get it on my skin. Just wanted to say be carefull when you use it as a cleaner.