Pinion help, Teeth ? Pitch ?

[rwordenjr 1890]

Got this pinion with no markings or anything. Any guesses on the teeth and pitch number ? 

[Frog Jumper 3664]

I'm guessing its a 18t pinion, only b/c I've forgotten how to count above 7...

Truthfully, it looks very similar to a 18t Frog pinion...

Terry

 

[rwordenjr 1890]

4 minutes ago, Frog Jumper said:

I'm guessing its a 18t pinion, only b/c I've forgotten how to count above 7...

Truthfully, it looks very similar to a 18t Frog pinion...

Terry

 

What pitch is the frog pinion ?

[Jontea 334]

11 minutes ago, rwordenjr said:

What pitch is the frog pinion ?

32dp

[Frog Jumper 3664]

10 minutes ago, rwordenjr said:

What pitch is the frog pinion ?

I think it’s 0.8 Module???

 

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

Looks like mod .8 to me, same as Boomerang.

[rwordenjr 1890]

Okay, I want to put this in the falcon. This should work then ? Manual calls for 18 or 19t 

[Frog Jumper 3664]

1 minute ago, Jontea said:

32dp

I’ll add that 0.8 module is sooooo close to 32p that it doesn’t matter for our applications...

[mud4fun 1696]

yeah it looks from the picture to be an 18 tooth, 0.8 module, same module as most older Tamiya buggies. However not sure many vintage Tamiyas allow fitment of an 18 tooth pinion?, none of mine do, biggest is 17t pinion on the thundershot based buggies with their fixed pinion sizing on motor mount. Maybe some of their newer cars?

[Silver-Can 402]

Re tooth count  - just use a black marker etc to mark 1 tooth, then count round from there. Insofaras pitch is concerned, looks like 32dp or 0.8mod. These are not the same but many use them interchangably as they are very close as to be almost indistinguishable.

On a side note, do you know what it is made from? If it is like the stock tamiya offering I would replace with steel. If it feels really light, chances are it is the soft aluminium.

Almost certain the frog is 0.8mod.

Edit: mega ninja'd...

[Jontea 334]

Just checked Tamiyabase, .8 mod, but modelsport have a 32dp as frog spec, but close enough as not to worry.

[rwordenjr 1890]

6 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

yeah it looks from the picture to be an 18 tooth, 0.8 module, same module as most older Tamiya buggies. However not sure many vintage Tamiyas allow fitment of an 18 tooth pinion?, none of mine do, biggest is 17t pinion on the thundershot based buggies with their fixed pinion sizing on motor mount. Maybe some of their newer cars?

Hey there, my falcon manual calls for 18t and 19t as an upgrade 

[Frog Jumper 3664]

Robinson steel pinions of both 18 and 19 teeth would be a good investment. The 19t will give you more speed.

Terry

 

 

[mud4fun 1696]

Just now, rwordenjr said:

Hey there, my falcon manual calls for 18t and 19t as an upgrade 

yeah, it'll just depend on the size of the spur I guess. Thundershots have 13-17t pinion range but to be honest I've never run taller than 15t as it just results in lower run times and overheating motors/ESC's. Tried a 17t pinion once with a dyna run super touring motor and 9.6v pack and hit 43mph but that was a one off, normally we run lower gearing as we don't have the space to utilise very tall gearing. 

[rwordenjr 1890]

So seems conclusive this is an 18t 32dp/.8 pinion ! Now I just need to confirm that’s the one the falcon needs lol 

[Juggular 4965]

Tamiya stayed with 0.8mod from about 1983 all the way up to early 2000 for "hobby grade" buggies.  Generally speaking, first 100 would have 0.8mod.  Frog also has 18t and 19t pinions so I wouldn't think it's too strange for Falcon to have 18t.  Steel is definitely better, but if you have good lubricant like teflon grease, aluminum would last a long while too.  

 

[rwordenjr 1890]

This is the part number the falcon manual references 

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

20 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

yeah, it'll just depend on the size of the spur I guess. Thundershots have 13-17t pinion range but to be honest I've never run taller than 15t as it just results in lower run times and overheating motors/ESC's. Tried a 17t pinion once with a dyna run super touring motor and 9.6v pack and hit 43mph but that was a one off, normally we run lower gearing as we don't have the space to utilise very tall gearing. 

Switch to brushless, a 17T pinion and 13.5T in a Boomerang is good fun.

16 minutes ago, Juggular said:

Tamiya stayed with 0.8mod from about 1983 all the way up to early 2000 for "hobby grade" buggies.  Generally speaking, first 100 would have 0.8mod.  Frog also has 18t and 19t pinions so I wouldn't think it's too strange for Falcon to have 18t.  Steel is definitely better, but if you have good lubricant like teflon grease, aluminum would last a long while too.  

 

The Manta Ray would have been the first. 6 mod (I'm guessing since the Top Force is)? Being related to the TA01 though that makes sense. Do you know what other brands were using back then? Offroad racers now mostly use 48p, I suspect the early Kyoshos were 48p but don't know for sure.

[mud4fun 1696]

1 minute ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

Switch to brushless, a 17T pinion and 13.5T in a Boomerang is good fun.

Yeah, would love to but sadly a fleet of a dozen or more cars means that is just too expensive for little gain at the moment, We have plenty enough speed from brushed for our needs at the moment. What I'm doing this year and next is to switch our cars from NiCd/NiMh to LiPo. That seems the most sensible first step? Brushless will be stage 2. 

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

46 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

Yeah, would love to but sadly a fleet of a dozen or more cars means that is just too expensive for little gain at the moment, We have plenty enough speed from brushed for our needs at the moment. What I'm doing this year and next is to switch our cars from NiCd/NiMh to LiPo. That seems the most sensible first step? Brushless will be stage 2. 

Yeah that makes sense. I run a mix of brushed and brushless but generally our bashers are brushed and racers are brushless. Its more fun being evenly matched than one car heaps faster anyway.

[Juggular 4965]

1 hour ago, rwordenjr said:

This is the part number the falcon manual references 

Many of us in RC know the paper-between-pinion-and-spur method? (I like it a little less than that) If you have that enough gap for very thin paper (like receipts from groceries), I should think 0.8 or 32 won't matter.  What I heard is that 32pitch equates to 0.79375 mod.   And 0.8mod translates to 31.75 pitch.  It's less than 1% difference.  From the looks of it your pinion shows some wear?  If I could tell, it's probably more than 1%.  So, as members already said, I also think it would not make any practical difference whether you use 0.8 or 32..   

57 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

The Manta Ray would have been the first. 6 mod (I'm guessing since the Top Force is)? Being related to the TA01 though that makes sense. Do you know what other brands were using back then? Offroad racers now mostly use 48p, I suspect the early Kyoshos were 48p but don't know for sure. 

That's a good call!  I have Manta Ray motor at my elbow and the teeth on the pinion definitely looks finer!  Yeah, Manta Ray's pinion is different from the 80's usual 0.8 mod.  

So from 1990 Tamiya figured out that soft aluminum would wear less, if teeth are made finer?  Speed-wise it won't make any difference. But if you have 3 teeth working instead of 2 teeth at given space, or 5 instead of 4 --however the math works out--, it would simply take less force on each tooth to rotate the same angle.  I was under the impression Tamiya stayed with 0.8 mod much longer. But it was a decade sooner!  

Off the top of my head, Kyosho on-road racer I had in 1986 or 1987 had finer teeth.  XR311 is from 1977.  Wild Willy 1 is from 1982.  They both have finer teeth also.  That made me think that early Tamiya from 70s and until early 80s' had 0.6 mod. Frog is from 1983 and it has 0.8mod.  

So rather than 0.8mod being the usual, it was 0.6 that was the usual that Tamiya went back to.  0.8 was more like a failed experiment that just happened to coincide with the most iconic Tamiya buggies in the 80's.  Huh, it feels like I discovered a secret!  Well, thank you for letting me see that, Jonathon!  

 

[mud4fun 1696]

12 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

Yeah that makes sense. I run a mix of brushed and brushless but generally our bashers are brushed and racers are brushless. Its more fun being evenly matched than one car heaps faster anyway.

Yeah, my brushed are still capable of 35mph if geared up, especially the Avante class chassis with their dyna run super touring motors but we either run on a tight and twisty garden track with  main straight of just 30 feet or a small local tarmac car park with very unforgiving 6 inch high concrete curbs. We prefer to run low geared and have better control, acceleration and fun (donuts, power slides and drifting much more easily on lower gearing) while at the same time we get very long run times even off 2000mah NiMh's let alone 4000mah+ LiPo!  I even swapped the Avante class buggies down to 17t-19t pinions rather than 20 or 21t, just more usable for us in tight confines  

EDIT: Converted two buggies to LiPo already, well impressed with run times, 5x that of NiCd, not just because of capacity increase, massive gain from drop in weight too, especially as most of mine were running heavier 8.4v packs. Hoping to have all buggies converted to LiPo by this time next year. Will start trialling brushless on my Avante2001 in the next month or so.

[rwordenjr 1890]

2 minutes ago, Juggular said:

Many of us in RC know the paper-between-pinion-and-spur method? (I like it a little less than that) If you have that enough gap for very thin paper (like receipts from groceries), I should think 0.8 or 32 won't matter.  What I heard is that 32pitch equates to 0.79375 mod.   And 0.8mod translates to 31.75 pitch.  It's less than 1% difference.  From the looks of it your pinion shows some wear?  If I could tell, it's probably more than 1%.  So, as members already said, I also think it would not make any practical difference whether you use 0.8 or 32..   

That's a good call!  I have Manta Ray motor at my elbow and the teeth on the pinion definitely looks finer!  Yeah, Manta Ray's pinion is different from the 80's usual 0.8 mod.  

So from 1990 Tamiya figured out that soft aluminum would wear less, if teeth are made finer?  Speed-wise it won't make any difference. But if you have 3 teeth working instead of 2 teeth at given space, or 5 instead of 4 --however the math works out--, it would simply take less force on each tooth to rotate the same angle.  I was under the impression Tamiya stayed with 0.8 mod much longer. But it was a decade sooner!  

Off the top of my head, Kyosho on-road racer I had in 1986 or 1987 had finer teeth.  XR311 is from 1977.  Wild Willy 1 is from 1982.  They both have finer teeth also.  That made me think that early Tamiya from 70s and until early 80s' had 0.6 mod. Frog is from 1983 and it has 0.8mod.  

So rather than 0.8mod being the usual, it was 0.6 that was usual for Tamiya.  0.8 was more like a failed experiment that just happened to coincide with the most iconic Tamiya buggies in the 80's.  Huh, it feels like I discovered a secret!  Well, thank you for letting me see that, Jonathon!  

 

How’s this look ?

[Juggular 4965]

Oh that looks like a good mesh!  It has grease on?

 

 

[rwordenjr 1890]

2 minutes ago, Juggular said:

Oh that looks like a good mesh!  It has grease on?

 

 

Yes