A racing thought experiment

[Wooders28 4723]

On 24/01/2021 at 6:18 PM, MadInventor said:

What about racing on a beach ?

You can lay out the track however you like (Race round poles with flags on maybe, get the shovels out and make ramps, obstacles, etc.  Track starting to wear ? It will be all smoothed over once the tide has been in and out. It's a relatively loose surface so would favour grip over horsepower. it's also back to the roots of RC (How many old tamiya promo videos were filmed on beaches) without restricting how a vehicle is designed. it would also introduce a degree of uncertainty into track conditions so  car design could not be tailored to such a degree to track conditions. Bit of a problem if you don't live close to a beach, but no one stated it had to be accessible to everyone......

 

Running on a beach is awesome!!

Although it costs you gears and bearings, so couldn't budget to race on sand once a week! 😳😂

After a couple of days of beach running (6 packs ,ish) 

 

 

 

[Silver-Can 402]

On 1/24/2021 at 6:18 PM, MadInventor said:

What about racing on a beach ?

You can lay out the track however you like (Race round poles with flags on maybe, get the shovels out and make ramps, obstacles, etc.  Track starting to wear ? It will be all smoothed over once the tide has been in and out. It's a relatively loose surface so would favour grip over horsepower. it's also back to the roots of RC (How many old tamiya promo videos were filmed on beaches) without restricting how a vehicle is designed. it would also introduce a degree of uncertainty into track conditions so  car design could not be tailored to such a degree to track conditions. Bit of a problem if you don't live close to a beach, but no one stated it had to be accessible to everyone......

 

Yep - plus 1 for the beach ⛱.  I live about a 5 min drive from one and it's one of my favourite surfaces. It's dynamic in the sense of getting good rooster tails and splatter, as well as an ever changing running surface. Not so keen on the clean up afterwards though. Mind, not had one sound like wooders' cars yet 😳🤣

[Wooders28 4723]

9 hours ago, Silver-Can said:

Not so keen on the clean up afterwards though. Mind, not had one sound like wooders' cars yet 😳🤣

If you're intending on beach running, sealing the gearbox halves might be an idea...

And gear covers...

 

 

 

[MadInventor 3884]

3 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

If you're intending on beach running, sealing the gearbox halves might be an idea...

And gear covers...

 

 

 

This is why I generally only use a TXT or Clod on the beach. They're high enough off the ground not to chuck up too much sand towards the motors and transmission.

[Dakratfink 967]

Couple of thoughts 

( Forgive if  someone said this above and I missed it )  Modern 1:1 buggies look a lot like the a rock racer ( but geared for a little more speed not crawling ).

It may be a niche class, but “rock racer” classes do run ( sometimes at scale events with the crawler scaler scene ) . So I guess that’s my short answer to what’s scale Buggy class that not a nostalgic series would look like.

 
I also have an idea for a “nostalgic “ class that would allow modern hardware 

Back in the day “Truck” class was brilliant fun ( before buggy/ truck conversions started morphing it into what became Truggy/ stadium trucks ) . I’d like to see a class for monster trucks but not necessarily 100% scale solid axle 2x2 racing. 
Trucks with proper scale MT bodies and Stance. Perhaps even require proper chevron MT style rubber. Allow 2wd trucks to keep the cost down, possibly have a spec or stock motor limit .  Running a circuit track wheel to wheel. ( not 2 up side by side racing like scale solid axle trucks and 1:1 MT do ) 

[Mad Ax 9329]

On 3/2/2021 at 8:26 PM, Dakratfink said:

Back in the day “Truck” class was brilliant fun ( before buggy/ truck conversions started morphing it into what became Truggy/ stadium trucks ) . I’d like to see a class for monster trucks but not necessarily 100% scale solid axle 2x2 racing. 
Trucks with proper scale MT bodies and Stance. Perhaps even require proper chevron MT style rubber. Allow 2wd trucks to keep the cost down, possibly have a spec or stock motor limit .  Running a circuit track wheel to wheel. ( not 2 up side by side racing like scale solid axle trucks and 1:1 MT do ) 

Back before the Iconic Revival got so busy and needed to run heats flat-out all day in order to have the finals run before the sun went down, they used to run a monster truck race class in the lunchbreak.  Along with the wheelie race (sadly also cancelled for the same reason), this was the highlight of the weekend.  Initially it was run with timing and a trophy (which I actually won, on one occasion!) but later as a just-for-fun untimed unlimited race until the lunchbreak was over or all the trucks were non-running (to be fair that usually happened before the lunchbreak was over).  Entry was generally Blackfeet and derivatives and a few Clods.  No crazy mod-clods or heavy alloy rigs.  It was an absolute hoot.  As the track was made for buggy racing, it had some fairly epic jumps - with my modified King Blackfoot it was possible to take the tabletop fast enough that I legitimately cut out part of the circuit.  While I'd never dream of doing this in a heat or a timed monster truck race with a trophy, I felt it was a perfectly acceptable thing to do in a bash.

This year I'm racing in the "truck" class which is for stadium trucks (my Blitzer Beetle will be massively outclassed by the RC10Ts and Schumachers) but if there was more space on the schedule I'd love to run a Blackfoot class.

[chuckjaywalk 89]

Competitive Homogeneity is something I have seen talked about a lot on RC forums and it affects my other major interest, Magic the Gathering. When the primary goal is winning, then homogeneity can be expected. If it works, everyone copies it. If it doesn't work, it gets left behind. In Magic, that leads to expensive staple cards and a shifting meta, as players try to either play with or against the strongest deck. In off-road buggy racing, it has lead to non-scale "blobs" that race around on carpet. I don't think the toothpaste can be put back in the tube. I do wonder if a Spec class based around an affordable and modifiable buggy with a more scale appearance could work. I know that in Magic, there are players who obsess over the art and the lore and there are players who would play cards without art or lore at all, they just love playing. 

[sosidge 624]

17 hours ago, chuckjaywalk said:

Competitive Homogeneity is something I have seen talked about a lot on RC forums and it affects my other major interest, Magic the Gathering. When the primary goal is winning, then homogeneity can be expected. If it works, everyone copies it. If it doesn't work, it gets left behind. In Magic, that leads to expensive staple cards and a shifting meta, as players try to either play with or against the strongest deck. In off-road buggy racing, it has lead to non-scale "blobs" that race around on carpet. I don't think the toothpaste can be put back in the tube. I do wonder if a Spec class based around an affordable and modifiable buggy with a more scale appearance could work. I know that in Magic, there are players who obsess over the art and the lore and there are players who would play cards without art or lore at all, they just love playing. 

Good analogy.

The great thing about the RC hobby is that it can be whatever you want to be. The people on Tamiyaclub are (mostly) the people who love the "art and the lore", and there is also a huge community of racers out there - even if you aren't winning, there is always the element of competing against yourself, or just enjoying the experience of being on a track.

I haven't heard much from the off-road racing community complaining about the lack of a scale class (we do have closer to scale classes in on-road). Last scale class was Short Course trucks but they were always more popular in the US than in the UK. And lets be honest, buggies stopped looking scale in the mid 80s - vintage racers may love the era of the Avante but it looks nothing like a real vehicle!

And it has to be said that the modern buggies are so much easier to drive. Mandating a solid rear axle (for example) may sound like a nice idea, but the cars just don't handle very well.

If the racers want a back-to-basics class, it would start happening organically. No need to force it. Vintage racing is increasingly popular, and there are enough re-releases out there that you can keep the cars well maintained. Combined with modern tyres, electronics and hop-ups, it's effectively modern racing with a less developed car design (although when you see the customisations some people do to their vintage cars you realise it is a very uneven playing field compared to modern buggies where you can buy a competitive car off the shelf).

[Mrowka 496]

Interesting point, but I am not sure if there is a "chicken and egg" problem here.

Racers looking for a scale-type racing class don't race because current classes aren't geared to them. Hardcore racers don't pay attention to what would win in a class that doesn't exist.

As an aside, one reason certain 1:1 racing organizations have so many mid-season rule changes is to keep the racing competitive. 

Similarly, in 1:1 racing, some of the rules that are intended to prevent "buying" wins have the opposite effect. For example, it costs a lot more, in terms of time, effort, specialized expertise, and cash, to modify a set of junkyard small block chevy cylinder heads for dirt track racing, than it does to buy and rework a set of 23° aftermarket heads to get comparable flow numbers.

 

[Mad Ax 9329]

More great points there.  And we see the Law of Unintended Consequences everywhere.  For example, a control motor.  There were rumours that some entrants into a popular vintage series were buying large numbers of motors and dyno-testing them to find the best ones.  Since the difference in performance from two identically-branded motors tends to be bigger in cheaper motors (cheaper, less-consistent materials, cheaper construction techniques, cheaper QA), the racer with the most money stands to get a bigger performance benefit from buying multiple motors if the motor costs £15 than he would if it cost £50.  The alternative is a hand-out motor but then it increases startup costs and background work for the series organisers and requires higher entry fees, which could put people off.

But the LUC can apply both ways.  There was an argument a while back about using modern ESCs in vintage race series.  Or, actually, les about 'modern' ESCs but about ESCs with traction control, ABS, punch and all the other things that can help performance on a slippery track.  But to insist that all racers have to buy a £20 control ESC on top of a £15 control motor increases the cost a bit more for everybody, and possibly the people you are trying to protect - those with less money - are priced out of entering in the first place.

But then it gets even more complicated with modern radios.  Actually even my cheap FlySky receiver has a built-in gyro that I can enable and disable from the handset.  It wouldn't be hard to switch it off for scrutineering and then switch it on from the podium at the start of the race, then switch it off again for post-race inspection.  There are so many driver aids built into radios these days.  But then you're looking at a hand-out or homologated radio set, and your costs are spiralling again.  Plus some people like sticks, some like wheels, some people would complain if you insist they have to use the mandated transmitter "because it doesn't fit their hands."  And, indeed, I know of at least one racer who uses a specially modified transmitter because of a disability.

In the 1:1 scene there are other options for keeping costs low.  Many moons ago I was looking to compete in a grassroots motorsport series which had a mandatory engine buy-out of £100.  That meant, if another racer made a complaint about your performance, and he stumped up the cash, you were obliged to sell him your engine for £100.  That prevented anyone from putting serious time or effort into their engines.

[Mtbtomo 4]

Having got back into the RC car thing in the last few months after 25 years since doing it as a kid, I like the building cars, tuning them (just a little....I don't see how life is long enough to make use of a lot of modern buggies adjustability!?) and racing something fast.  I get a bit nostalgic at the thought of Optima Mids, Procats, Manta Rays etc but I don't really care whether the cars are scale representatives of their full size off road buggies or trucks.  So long as I can paint them in a smart colour scheme and race through the twisty bits and then launch it full tilt down at an insane speed down the straight.... 

F1 cars bear no resemblance to road going cars, yet people don't care that the cars don't resemble anything that's practical or that a civilian might drive.....

Fast kit is so relatively cheap nowadays, I don't see the merit in limiting what is used.  Perhaps regulations on the actual car but if my motor destroys the gearbox because it's too powerful for a 1980s/90s or stock plastic Tamiya or whatever - then that's my look out?

But there is either a market for alternate RC racing or people just like the low faff and maintenance (clean up) of carpet and astro....

 

[SlideWRX 785]

On 11/6/2020 at 1:23 PM, Mrowka said:

We all know that a competitive modern off-road racing buggy is very different from a competitive buggy from the 1980s.

Not only that, but today's offerings have less and less resemblance to anything like a full sized off-road race car.

How would you design a racing class that would reverse this trend, without venturing into nostalgia class racing?

For instance, a low-slung cab-forward design makes sense on a smooth high-grip carpet track, but might be almost undrivable on other surfaces.

Look at ROC buggys or kartcross for a modern take on a buggy that runs more similar to what current RC competitions are versus baja buggys.  Baja is dirty, muddy, rutted two tracks that will stop a buggy if it doesn't keep momentum, combined with running full speed on more dry, smooth open terrain.

On 12/27/2020 at 6:46 PM, Silver-Can said:

I'm looking forward to FPV racing myself...stick a little camera in the cab, grab your goggles and off you go. Winner is last racer puking 🤢😁

TWO cameras, for that depth perception - much more puking.    Laughs aside, I do want to see this.

On 12/29/2020 at 3:33 PM, markbt73 said:

It's the unrealistic appearance of modern race buggies that turns me off more than anything else. I wonder if you could just add a couple of rules governing how the cars look, to make things more interesting. Off the top of my head:

- Roof of body must be the highest point of the car, excluding wings or spoilers. No more shock towers reaching for the sky, or pancake-flat rooflines. You want big shocks, you have to run a big body.

Yeah, the 'cab forward' style running right now is an awful look.  It is, however adapted to the environment the car runs in. 

 

1. Race of Champions buggys, kartcross, Baja buggys all have to give the driver a clear field of view to drive, which RC doesn't.  Getting that kind off look back without a camera would be difficult. limiting front suspension height would be key.

2. The venue is important as well - multiple surfaces in the same race/on the same track would be something to try. don't let them optimize to one surface without compromise.  I've seen corrugated aluminum put across a track for a rough section, but put the corrugation running along the track in one spot and low slung chassis will have a hard time keeping their wheels on the ground.    It is 'rutted'

3. increase the minimum required weight.  Current 2wd buggys are around 1500 grams, right?  Take out the need for the motor & battery & electronics to be the lightest and in the exact right spot for balance.  Raise it to 1700g to start.

[Mad Zero 316]

My lottery dream has been for years to build a complex of RC tracks open to the public which would include a covered (but not indoor) tarmac circuit big & adaptable enough for all classes up to 1/5, and a proper off road course which would be made of actual dirt. It would likely get a bit dusty in the sunshine and very muddy when it rained so the cars would get dirty. Oh dear, how sad, never mind. Anyone approaching the gates with AstroTurf or rolls of carpet would be turned away. Unless they brought cake. 
 

On the subject of cars I’ve always thought the Zahhak looks like a proper buggy. 

[Wooders28 4723]

On 9/15/2021 at 5:51 PM, Mad Zero said:

My lottery dream has been for years to build a complex of RC tracks open to the public

I'm fairly sure, that's on alot of RC guys lottery wishlist! 

Depending on the win (I doubt a million is enough these days....), I'd be inclined for it to be part of a complex, couple of lane bowling alley etc.

 

On 9/15/2021 at 5:51 PM, Mad Zero said:

It would likely get a bit dusty in the sunshine and very muddy when it rained so the cars would get dirty. Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

As on the previous page, Having to clean, rebuild and replace bearings etc if it's hot or raining, probably something I wouldn't want to be doing (or afford to do!) on a weekly or even monthly basis tbh, unless, the cars are provided in this lottery win venue? 

In which case, I'd happily turn up, wreck a cars mechanicals, not clean it, and leave it for someone else to spend hours dealing with the maintenance repairs...🙄😁

Astro (not too sandy..) or carpet, I'd be wanting over every single night of the week.

[Mad Zero 316]

18 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

I'm fairly sure, that's on alot of RC guys lottery wishlist! 

Depending on the win (I doubt a million is enough these days....), I'd be inclined for it to be part of a complex, couple of lane bowling alley etc.

No no no! Mine would be a Mecca for RC car enthusiasts with absolutely no reason for the half interested to be there at all. Plenty of bowling alleys out there already. It would be somewhere you could turn up with any type of RC car & any level of ability to race bash crawl & generally enjoy it until u get bored. Organised racing on a decent track for those who want it but plenty of running space for those who don’t. No bowling, no slots, no irritating group activities, just somewhere to plug in ur charger some bogs & a burger van. 

[BelknapCrater 179]

On 1/24/2021 at 10:18 AM, MadInventor said:

What about racing on a beach ?

 

Big sand volleyball courts are what I’m trying to track down in my area. Nobody using them after summers over. Of course, the sand will grind everything into metal paste.

[BelknapCrater 179]

My thought experiment goes as such: 

What if we free buggies from any scale appearance at all? They are land-based drones, after all.

No attempt at any kind of facsimile of a cabin, no worries about scale visibility over a front shock tower, no hang ups about shock damper mounting or layout at all.

Just four wheels, dimensional parameters, and whatever specs for stock and modified classes.

[MadInventor 3884]

2 hours ago, BelknapCrater said:

My thought experiment goes as such: 

What if we free buggies from any scale appearance at all? They are land-based drones, after all.

No attempt at any kind of facsimile of a cabin, no worries about scale visibility over a front shock tower, no hang ups about shock damper mounting or layout at all.

Just four wheels, dimensional parameters, and whatever specs for stock and modified classes.

That sounds like most buggies designed in the last decade.................

[Yalson 514]

On 1/24/2021 at 6:18 PM, MadInventor said:

What about racing on a beach ?

You can lay out the track however you like (Race round poles with flags on maybe, get the shovels out and make ramps, obstacles, etc.  Track starting to wear ? It will be all smoothed over once the tide has been in and out...

 

Welcome everybody to the 2022 MadInventor Beach Classic!

[Yalson 514]

On 1/29/2021 at 8:42 AM, Wooders28 said:

If you're intending on beach running, sealing the gearbox halves might be an idea...

 

 

Ow!

[Yalson 514]

On 4/12/2021 at 4:18 PM, Mad Ax said:

In the 1:1 scene there are other options for keeping costs low.  Many moons ago I was looking to compete in a grassroots motorsport series which had a mandatory engine buy-out of £100.  That meant, if another racer made a complaint about your performance, and he stumped up the cash, you were obliged to sell him your engine for £100.  That prevented anyone from putting serious time or effort into their engines.

There are grassroots racing series in Finland where this rule is applied to whole cars. Did well this week? Penti in the knackered Skoda over there can swap his car with yours for the sum of 200 Markka and drive it home. Ends the desire to cheat on set-up right away and also explains why Finnish drivers famously have such outstanding car control: it's because when they first started out, half of the time they were racing in cars that only had three wheels.

[Yalson 514]

Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkrace

[Mrowka 496]

I am wondering what the effect on racing would be if racers were restricted to NiMH batteries and/or brushed motors. 

Besides being heavy and down on power, from what I understand, NiMH batteries introduced an element of strategy back in the Good Old Days when they were state of the art technology. 

[sosidge 624]

1 hour ago, Mrowka said:

I am wondering what the effect on racing would be if racers were restricted to NiMH batteries and/or brushed motors. 

Besides being heavy and down on power, from what I understand, NiMH batteries introduced an element of strategy back in the Good Old Days when they were state of the art technology. 

It would be a lot less fun.

NiMH and brushed needed a huge amount of maintenance and were not durable. Nobody wants to go back to NiMH, sealed can brushed are still OK in slow classes, nobody wants to go back to rebuildable brushed motors.

[El Gecko 1344]

30 minutes ago, sosidge said:

It would be a lot less fun.

nobody wants to go back to rebuildable brushed motors.

I beg to differ!