What reduced off-road's popularity in the '90s?

[Saito]

What factors were the cause of off-road's "demise" in the mid-nineties? I know it never really went away, but the off-road market has shrunk tremendously over the last 10 years. Why? Off-road exploded back in the eighties because the cars were tough and could run everywhere, pavement or dirt. On-road pan cars seemed finicky and too unrealistic. They were just fast cars (if the surface was absolutely clean) with non-descript blobs of lexan covering them. Now, I realize Tamiya's birth of the touring car changed all that. They were realistic, tough and could be driven in less than perfect conditions (i.e. parking lots etc.). Nevertheless, touring cars are still restricted to pavement. Why did off-road die off so much? Was it just the hobby's general reduction in popularity combined with the touring car craze? Any thoughts?

[Shodog]

your forgeting that monster trucks really took over most of the offroad duties that buggies used to occupy.

[Voltar]

Simply put, RCers had more choices in the mid 90s. Touring, 1/10 nitro, monster etc.

[kontemax]

Touring cars. The producers decided to push this new market and the people followed them.

Max

[OCD]

quote:Originally posted by kontemax

Touring cars. The producers decided to push this new market and the people followed them.

Max

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I disagree[:I]

I remember when touring cars went big:

I was trying to find ways to fit on-road bodies and street tires on my Frog/Hornet/RC10/etc. etc. etc. .. All of my attempts produced results that looked something like the early Lancia / Audi Quattro / Brat ..

Tamiya went to touring cars in response to the markets demands- like any successful company[]

[terry.sc]

quote:Originally posted by kontemax

Touring cars. The producers decided to push this new market and the people followed them.

Max

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I disagree as well. Previous to Tamiya releasing the Skyline on road touring cars were very popular, made by lowering a buggy and fitting a wide touring car body on it. These weren't realistic, the proportions were all wrong, and Tamiya built a more scale version by narrowing a Manta Ray. The touring racers at the time didn't consider them as a serious race car, but Tamiya sold enough of them so other companies started making them. Certainly in the uK narrow touring cars were considered a secondary class to the wide body converted buggies, until there were a lot more racers with the narrow cars.

1/10th off road has shrunk for a few reasons. In the 80s buggies were big as there wasn't any alternative for bashing or running on anything but a track. Pan cars are serious race cars and are impossible to drive if not on a perfect surface.

Touring cars. Previous to Tamiya introducing the first Skyline there were converted buggies with a saloon shell on, but most had to be converted from the buggy version. Non racers related to touring cars as they are scale models of full size cars, where buggies look like nothing else. until touring cars came about electric on road was limited to 1/12th or 1/10th pan cars, unable to run on anything else but a prepared track surface. Bashers wanting to run a car on car parks were stuck with buggies until the touring cars came along, then they had an ideal car.

Touring cars also caused an explosion in racing as suddenly people could race anywhere flat, such as car parks. Lots of hobby shops could start a race series right outside the shop, leading to 'parking lot racers' Off road really needs a purpose built track. Why run a buggy on an on road track when a touring car would do the job better?

Monster trucks. Previous to the T-Maxx and E-Maxx monster trucks were usually just converted buggies with big wheels, so not much more capable than buggy version, or 1/8th scale which were very expensive. Traxxas reinvented the monster truck with trucks capable of going where even 1/8th rallycross buggies couldn't go. The T-Maxx also created a whole new industry making alloy parts for them. If you want a car for bashing off road why buy a little buggy when you can get a big truck that will go where buggies couldn't and take much harder hits without damage. The hobby has evolved, and fitting lots of shiny alloy parts to your truck seems to be very fashionable, you can't do that with a buggy.

Tracks. If you want to race a buggy you need an off road track. Due to the touring car boom lots of off road clubs flattened their tracks and tarmaced them. Most clubs don't have permanent tracks and race indoors or on car parks, so they generally run on road. An off road track needs land to be bought and paid for, and the track needs maintenance. This is a serious investment in time and money. Based on numbers of cars sold 1/8th rallycross and monster trucks are the biggest areas of R/C cars at the moment, but they are both 'minority' classes for racing as there just isn't the tracks to race them.

IC engine development. A lot of cars and trucks are sold with IC engines today, they are so much easier to start these days that the only advantage electric has today is the lack of noise. Electric used to be seen as the easy option - no constant tuning to keep it running, no starter box needed, etc. but modern engines are so much more reliable and easy to start and run that new drivers are fine with them.

[Saito]

I personally wonder if the buggy market didn't "kill itself". by becoming too pricey. From what I recall, there were alot of "must have" accessories that cost big money. Graphite chassis, titanium turnbuckles, hard anodized shocks, the latest "special" transmission etc. were all neat add-ons but they weren't nessesary to win. The mentality though was that if you wanted to win and be like the pros you needed the latest trick pieces. Things got out of hand. I think alot of newcomers eventually got turned off by it.

The same thing happened to the slot car boom of the 70's. What was a fun little hobby for kids and grown-ups got overun by overly-competitive adults who laid out lots of money. I feel RC manufacturers saw this returning trend and tried to stop it. Losi quit using graphite chassis and went to a much cheaper matrix molded composite piece. A.E. drivers also ditched graphite in favor of their old aluminum RC10 tub. But alas, the touring car craze put an end to all of it. While touring cars got just as competitve in the coming years, they didn't seem to start out that way. It originally seemed fun and relaxing for people of all ages (much the way the old Big Bear races gave a break from the competitive RC10 dominated arena in the early 80s.)

[RETRO R/C]

From my point of veiw there are a number of reasons - the most prevelant being:

1) Cost of tyres - Tyres of choice that had enough grip to win were super soft and would barely last five minutes! I kid you not! You could actually feel the tyres "going off" (or loosing their grip) during the run. 5 MINUTES!! This is about 8 to 10 uSD (retail) a run in modified......so expence was a big factor. Not to mention all the go fast "bling" that you had to have. Batteries were TWICE the price for a top line pack than they are now!

2) More people from the general pulic could relate more easily with the touring cars - they were cars that you could see on the TV and a race track just about anywhere - so "realism" was higher in touring cars.

3) A whole lot cleaner racing on road - both in a literal sense and the fact that the tracks require far less maintenance than they do for off road.

There are alot of other factors - these IMHO are some of the biggest though.

Cheers

Darryn

[terry.sc]

quote:Originally posted by Saito

I personally wonder if the buggy market didn't "kill itself". by becoming too pricey. From what I recall, there were alot of "must have" accessories that cost big money. Graphite chassis, titanium turnbuckles, hard anodized shocks, the latest "special" transmission etc. were all neat add-ons but they weren't nessesary to win. The mentality though was that if you wanted to win and be like the pros you needed the latest trick pieces. Things got out of hand. I think alot of newcomers eventually got turned off by it.

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Just like touring cars are now. You get most of the parts you need in a touring car kit these days, but the price of them are unbelieveable. By the mid 90s when touring cars took over the kits included everything you needed to be competitive. In fact Neil Craggs World Champs winning B4 had loads of extra hop ups on it, but by the time of the final it had been converted back to the standard basic kit, he didn't even use the upgrade graphite plastic parts. They are also cheaper than the equivalent touring cars.

quote:

Losi quit using graphite chassis and went to a much cheaper matrix molded composite piece. A.E. drivers also ditched graphite in favor of their old aluminum RC10 tub.

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They went for moulded tubs as they were stiffer and lighter than the carbon chassis. Graphite was the thing to have for a short while but the graphite filled nylon tubs were better performers. It wasn't a money saving exercise.

quote:

But alas, the touring car craze put an end to all of it. While touring cars got just as competitve in the coming years, they didn't seem to start out that way. It originally seemed fun and relaxing for people of all ages (much the way the old Big Bear races gave a break from the competitive RC10 dominated arena in the early 80s.)

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It was fun at first, until the big money racers moved from off road to touring. Off road is now seen as more relaxed, but it just isn't attracting the racers.

Tyres were a big factor as well, but again it is being repeated in touring cars now. Off road never had the situation where you needed several tyres depending on the track temperature and a whole collection of different inserts to go with them.

Touring cars are going through everything right now that supposedly killed off buggies, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the touring cars in the same way. I think the only reason that makes touring cars different is that they do look like miniature touring cars, where buggies look nothing like their full size counterparts. Monster trucks are over the top, but they still have a full size equivalent and actually look like oversize trucks.

True, rallycross buggies don't look like full size cars, but they have an advantage over electric buggies as they have a lot more performance.

[TamiyaDan]

.

[billg4]

variety

when different things were offered of course the market split

Hop up over kill

when people kept thinking to race offroad they needed the newest unobtainiam part.

Housing boom

More and more offroad places became housing so the next thing was parking lots to play in.

[cant_get_right2005]

video games

[stulec52]

great topic !

seems like from the answers there is not one simple reason.

I think all the reasons mentioned here probably all contributed to the decline.

Also, I think Off Road was just the fashion, or in thing, for a while, and the last few years has been the turn of the Touring car, but it seems like they are on a bit of a down turn right now, and at least where I live 8th scale off road is now the biggest class.

The other thing I notice is the age group of the racers. Seems like in general, it is getting to be an older group ( at least here in Western Canada anyway) so does that affect the classes that are most popular as well? maybe so.

[WillyChang]

quote:Originally posted by Saito

What factors were the cause of off-road's "demise" in the mid-nineties? I know it never really went away, but the off-road market has shrunk tremendously over the last 10 years. Why? Off-road exploded back in the eighties because the cars were tough and could run everywhere, pavement or dirt.

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If you're only talking about offroad buggy in the hands of kiddies,

big factor in the 1990s is advent of computer games eg Playstation.

Offroad competitive racing otoh... different kettle of fish,

is a very very small subset of the overall RC offroad market

but its still a survivor amongst the diehards.

Oh yeah, a lot of offroad tracks have fallen into disrepair and

many of them got abandoned &/or paved over. Offroad facilities

do take a lot of upkeep and nobody bothers anymore these days.

Plus modern kids seem to have stopped "playing outdoors".

Be it stranger danger & security concerns... many are growing up

to be couch spuds. Houses these days don't even have lawn anymore.

[Saito]

That is quite true. I'm sure alot of kids are glued to the tv playing games. I posed the question to my friends one day "What do kids today do?" No one had a concrete answer because no one really sees them anymore. In the summer, you would always see a gaggle of kid goofing around with an RC, riding bikes, playing baseball...anything. Today, I see nothing of the sort.

[Ferris]

quote:Originally posted by WillyChang

Plus modern kids seem to have stopped "playing outdoors".

Be it stranger danger & security concerns... many are growing up

to be couch spuds. Houses these days don't even have lawn anymore.

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wonder what they do during the summer six week holiday now with no lawn, cos I spent most of mine led out watch clouds drift by....

I rencently wanted to buy something new rather than running 'vintage'.. I thought about all of the options but it all came down to 1:8th Rally Cross as i see its best bang for my buck!

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