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Saito2

Shorter lifespan re-releases

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Is it my imagination, or are Tamiya rereleases receiving shorter and shorter shelf time before being discontinued again? While there have always being evergreen rereleases that seem to be around forever like the Lunch Box and Hornet, the recent Terra Scorcher was here and gone quick. While that may be Covid related the Manta Ray before it didn't stick around forever either. I wonder what Tamiya's methods are for gauging production numbers?. I would guess they are playing it careful by producing lower production numbers to avoid overstock. Better to leave the people wanting then to have vehicles lingering around. Other times they seem to have over-estimated. The Bigwig is still hanging around. Is this because they intend to make it a long-life model like the Hot Shot or did Tamiya simply mis-read demand? I thought the Super Astute would disappear quickly being "limited edition" but it hung out longer than the Terra Scorcher. An unfortunate downside to quickly discontinued rereleases is the lack of spares, particularly from kit breakers.

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Maybe the bigwig was selling more than the boomer so boomer went again?

Manta ray rerere had proper steel drive shafts compared to previous rere so now they updated it, it will probably come again in years to come?

I thought the super hot shot might go and leave room for hotshot 2 but maybe they are keeping it until both super hotshot and hotshot sales tail off.....?

It also feels like they prefer to sell people an additional kit rather than launch spare parts, maybe they know some people split them? 

I'm surprised the rising fighter hasn't been updated either, not affected by the grass hopper 2.

The terra scorcher going leaves possible more purchases free for the fire dragon?

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Yes, we noticed this too. We were hoping some of these re-releases would remain available for at least a year to give us chance to save up or simply to allow spare parts supply to replenish.

Thankfully I have plentiful supply of the most commonly damaged parts for my thundershot based buggies so have no fear of using them hard and frequently.

It is such a shame though that the Avante class spares are almost non existent, and being so damned fragile alot more parts are needed to maintain a fleet of runners. I am very reluctant to use them for fear of damage, which is such a shame. I am not one for keeping buggies on a shelf looking pristine, my enjoyment comes from running and racing them but even I get nervous about racing the Avante class buggies.

I wish Tamiya would just re-release good volume of most commonly broken or worn out parts for their buggies. They must know what they are. Or maybe not considering they haven't bothered fixing the known flaws on the re-releases......

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Without some industrial espionage, I think the answer to this will always be speculation.

The first time I recall a re-re appearing and then disappearing was the Novafox.  Up until then, I hadn't noticed that re-res could vanish without warning - but the Fox was discontinued very quickly.  I don't recall now how long it was on the shelves, but it didn't feel like a flash release and I think most of us expected it to be around for a while.  One moment shelves were full, the next we'd been notified that there wouldn't be any more.  I was quick enough to jump in and buy one before prices went skywards, but when NIB prices on ebay went upwards of $400usd I was reluctant to open mine.  I actually kept it NIB until the next round of releases appeared before I built it.

I think the withdrawal and then subsequent reissue of the Novafox caught a lot of people off guard, because that price bubble must have burst quite drastically once the reissue was announced.  And it set a precedent for Tamiya to issue and withdraw the re-releases seemingly on a whim.

My personal guess is they have seen that some things (Hornet and Lunchbox, as mentioned) sell really well and bring people back to the hobby (it sure worked for me back in the mid-00s, I wouldn't have 40+ cars now if I hadn't walked past a hobby shop and seen a Lunchbox in the window) and some things are cost-effective to keep in production, but others work better if they are released in smaller numbers.

I wonder what the situation is with warehouse space and production volume.  I mean, if they want to have 10 re-res in production at any one time, alongside all the current models, does this impact their ability to supply worldwide demand and keep spares in stock?  Or can they operate more efficiently if they produce only 5 re-res at a time?  Is it about controlling demand, or is it about dissuading kit breakers from cashing in on spares demand?

The spares problem is a different issue altogether.  Anecdotally, I heard around a decade ago that EU law had made it illegal to sell any consumer goods within the EU unless it had guaranteed parts supply for at least 10 years.  I heard that this was at least partly behind Tamiya's temporary withdrawal of user manuals from places like TC, while they worked out what they had to start reproducing in order to continue selling in the EU.  However this was only an anecdotal story, and as a British person who voted to remain within the EU, I can say that there's an awful lot of stories get told about EU law here which are either completely unfounded or are a very distorted version of the truth.

Pandemic notwithstanding, I think the lack of spares for re-releases still in production has been a fairly major bad mark against Tamiya in recent years, and it's even worse when they throw a new re-re into the market and then withdraw it before any parts hit the stores.  I don't if there's some special ruling that exempts nostalgia releases or limited runs from any obligation to provide spares.

Ax's Anecdote - parts supply within the EU

This is about our fridge-freezer.  A few years ago, our existing unit lost its gas and stopped cooling (in the middle of a heatwave when we were trying to store prepared milk for our baby, no less :unsure: ).  It was only a few years old (new when we moved into the property a few years earlier), but a local repair man told us that nobody regasses fridges any more.  When my dad ran a small business with a chilled warehouse, it was common for one of the many chiller units to fail, and a regassing engineer would put it right within a few minutes with a soldering torch and a can of compressed re****erant.  However nobody does this to consumer fridges - despite being heavy, expensive and filled with non-recyclable materials, it's deemed better to throw them away than to fit a regassing nipple on the back.

So we ordered a new fridge, and were talked into taking out the 5 year insurance policy.

Less than two months later my wife broke the clip on the door that holds the tray in place.  As the insurance covered accidental damage, we filed a claim.  After several weeks of arguing, the company eventually agreed that we were indeed covered.  They then told us that the clip is all moulded into the door assembly, so instead of supplying a new inner door trim, they would have to supply a whole new door.  But they then told us that the model was discontinued, so they'd have to supply us a whole new fridge-freezer.

It was literally not even 3 months old, and had come from a major UK white goods supplier, not a discount superstore or as an end-of-line special offer.

So there you have it.  A slightly tangential anecdote, but an anecdote nonetheless.

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@Mad Ax as a British person who voted to leave the EU, I can say that there's an awful lot of stories get told about the benefits of being in EU which are either completely unfounded or are a very distorted version of the truth. :D:D:D

All joking aside, agree completely, we had similar issue with a combi microwave/oven, bought brand new from well known high street retailer, failed after a few months, just required new heating element but instead was replaced under warranty with complete new unit because the heating element was no longer available!!! Just crazy.

I guess I can't expect Tamiya to support products that are 20 or 30 years old but I do expect that if they re-release for example a Terra Scorcher then they should also back that up with plentiful supply of spare parts (especially commonly worn or broken ones) because essentially it is a new product.

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1 minute ago, mud4fun said:

@Mad Ax as a British person who voted to leave the EU, I can say that there's an awful lot of stories get told about the benefits of being in EU which are either completely unfounded or are a very distorted version of the truth. :D:D:D

I'm sure this is also true, or at least as true as my statement :lol:

I think if there's one real truth underlying all the lies and half-truths, it's that nobody ever really knew what the real truth was ;) 

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17 minutes ago, Mad Ax said:

I think if there's one real truth underlying all the lies and half-truths, it's that nobody ever really knew what the real truth was ;) 

The same can probably be said of government virus statistics :D

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I think it’s deliberate. Like Porsche and Ferrari controlling their markets, now the prices of their rarer models are insane.

 

i think they do it to retain focus on their brand (so your always checking what they are releasing) and also just making sure there is excess demand / limited supply, which is good for them.

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37 minutes ago, CoolHands said:

I think it’s deliberate. Like Porsche and Ferrari controlling their markets, now the prices of their rarer models are insane.

 

i think they do it to retain focus on their brand (so your always checking what they are releasing) and also just making sure there is excess demand / limited supply, which is good for them.

I'm not sure that policy is working though? For example, my daughter's and I were discussing this yesterday and we are looking to switching to Schumacher or Associated buggies. Now I'm a life long Tamiya fan but they won't support their existing buggies (or their re-releases) with good parts backup meaning it is getting to the point where we simply can't use them for fear of breakages AND they haven't produced a genuinely modern competitive buggy for decades. So that leaves us no option but to switch to manufacturers who do support their products. 

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I myself have been getting discouraged by Tamiya lately.  Their spares supply is so erratic its frustrating.  I've actually kicked around selling off some items because i don't ever see myself running them if there aren't any spares available.  Ebay had a bunch of mostly cheap spares for a while but probably some combination of discontinuations, pandemic availability mean the selection isn't as good or as cheap as previously.

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34 minutes ago, tamiya3speed said:

I myself have been getting discouraged by Tamiya lately.  Their spares supply is so erratic its frustrating.  I've actually kicked around selling off some items because i don't ever see myself running them if there aren't any spares available. 

That's about how I feel about Tamiya of late. Admittedly, I'm a stickler for spares and usually only feel completely at ease enjoying a model that I have a stockpile of spares for or spares are readily available in the market. Its gotten to the point where I'm losing the anticipation for new re-res. The Vanquish was the best buggy I owned as a kid but knowing how things are, I've resigned myself to let the VQS pass by. Its too much money for a paperweight or gentle runner. The Fire Dragon did catch my eye until I reminded myself it would likely disappear quickly like the Terra Scorcher. I have stockpiles for Hot Shots series buggies, ORV trucks and Clods. I'm not ready to start another for Thundershot series buggies.

I agree, its all just speculation on our end. It could be the pandemic. It could be the new way of doing business now that so much has been re-released. It could be changing sales figures. No one likely knows for sure and most probably aren't the rabid followers we are about this stuff.  

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Wait -  the Terra Scorcher is gone already? What, did they make one case of 'em or something? That's crazy...

Back in the early-mid 2000s, I used to joke that the Fox TV network should hire me to see if their show was going to be a hit or not. If I liked it (Firefly, Dark Angel, Greg The Bunny) it would bomb, and if I didn't care about it, or actually disliked it (Family Guy, X-Files, 24) it would stick around forever. I'm starting to feel the same way about some of Tamiya's releases. It looks like I've missed the boat on the hard-body Lancia yet again (maybe they'll re-release again it in 10 years on some other chassis?), and the Boomerang came and went twice before I could grab one, though I did manage to find a decent original and fix it up with re-re spares. Yet the Hotshot (which I tried, and just couldn't get into) has been fairly easily available for 13 years now. And I think they'll keep cranking out Frogs till doomsday.

As for the parts breakers: let's just say I hope there's a very special, very warm place waiting for them eventually... when I can't find a kit because they bought 50 of them and are selling them off piece by piece, it just makes me furious. They're not hobbyists; they're vultures.

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13 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

I have stockpiles for Hot Shots series buggies, ORV trucks and Clods. I'm not ready to start another for Thundershot series buggies.

To be fair here, with my Thundershot setup, the only items to stockpile if you can maintain a crash free life as possible (which isn't too hard!) are...

tyres, drive shafts, wheels, bodies.......which have all been around in some form or another at reasonable prices (albeit bodies would be repo)

Bumper prices went up by a crazy amount if you want a scratch free one, at the moment prices ok.

A lot of my spares were unused so i'm getting ready to build another fire dragon out of the last of my spares......

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1 hour ago, taffer said:

To be fair here, with my Thundershot setup, the only items to stockpile if you can maintain a crash free life as possible (which isn't too hard!) are...

tyres, drive shafts, wheels, bodies.......which have all been around in some form or another at reasonable prices (albeit bodies would be repo)

Bumper prices went up by a crazy amount if you want a scratch free one, at the moment prices ok.

A lot of my spares were unused so i'm getting ready to build another fire dragon out of the last of my spares......

I don't lead a crash free life.......:D

and I like to push my buggies hard so damage is inevitable. The thundershots are obviously much more rugged than the Avantes so don't break anywhere near as often and cost only a fraction to fix too.

Tyres and wheels are no problem for me on any of our buggies as I use modern 2.2 inch alternatives.

Shells are no issue currently as between TBG and Kamtec they do replacements for all ours (Avante2001, Vanquish, Thundershot and Egress)

Most common broken items on our thundershots are front hubs - usually snap on the arm just next to the boss that the brass steering ball screws into. Broken two of those this year from very fast and hard impacts into concrete curbs. However I have about 50 of them spare so should be OK for a few years yet. Since replacing A5 with B8 on all ours we haven't lost any more of those in 16 years so I have a box full of brand new A5 and B8's too :lol: Most common broken parts on Avante class is too long a list to put here LOL

Most common worn items on all our buggies are dog bones, UJ driveshafts and axles. Thankfully I discovered axles and dogbones from other cars fit the thundershots so I got a load of new non thundershot replacements for those eg. pretty sure the axles were TL01 and the dogbones may have been TL01B but can't remember for sure).

Like you I have alot of thundershot spares, in my case enough to build maybe 12 complete new thundershots and upto 20 sets of front and rear gearbox/suspension assemblies. I tend to have a couple of spare built up gearbox/suspension sub assemblies available at all times so if we damage a thundershot in the middle of a race we can quickly swap in a whole new sub assembly (just 6 screws and a 5 minute job) to keep us going. I then strip and repair the broken sub assembly which replaces the one I just used. 

The Avante class is my biggest issue, would love to use them more but all my stock of spares bought cheaply 20 years ago are now used up and some items are now impossible to get and others are just crazy expensive. Thankfully Yeah Racing do alloy replacement hubs and UJ driveshafts which are excellent but other items such as gearbox casings, dogbones or gearbox axles are so expensive or hard to find that I'm scuppered as I have no spares.

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That's one aspect of the hobby I've gradually decided i don't enjoy, that's being too fast for the chassis, pushing it too much, repairing and tuning etc......it got boring pretty fast within the first five years of the hobby.I

I'm also not worried about driving around any tracks, I prefer to watch and feel how the buggy is reacting to the surface I'm driving on.

The next step in thinking about re- assessing what I enjoy, or more accurately, what can I do differently to see if I enjoy my hobby more to my liking was quite a difficult decision because it feels opposite to a lot of other rc-ers!

This was to take the decision to drive stock apart from essential upgrades of steel pinion,ball bearings and esc, next step is to lightly upgrade the motor (normally a Super stock bz currently) and find the sweet spot (for me) of how the particular chassis drives in respect of the era it was 'born' in, for chassis that I have enjoyed building, this allows me (reminds me, more accurately) of its limitations and keep the enthusiasm going. So for example the Hornet, I'm still able to enjoy driving it and not get disappointed by its performance.

Another way to describe it is to us my imagination to try and recreate the same feelings as when I drove my original in 1986. It's not an easy thing to do initially but years later it has helped not suffering with burnout, which in the past i had months where enthusiasm dropped away for a time, that doesn't happen anymore.

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@taffer yes, I can understand that. We all enjoy different aspects of the hobby and I can see why you have come to your decision. I feel the same way about the Avante class buggies, just don't feel like running them because they are just a right PITA and too costly to maintain and fix, the negative aspects of owning them outweigh the positives for me these days.

However with a huge stockpile of parts for my thundershots I have zero worries about damaging things and can enjoy the aspect of the hobby that gives me the most satisfaction and that is racing them against my kids. We have so much fun and have done over 20 years now. Not having to worry about breakages is a huge weight lifted off your shoulders and makes ownership so much more enjoyable.

PS. I wouldn't say my kids or myself are bad drivers, it is just that we're doing literally thousands of laps around rough dirt tracks or fast tarmac tracks over the course of a year so accidents and breakages are inevitable. I also enjoy the modification aspect of the hobby, getting the buggies to compete and perform well against more modern machinery is a fun and interesting aspect for me. Just take a look at the latest postal racing results (rounds 3 and 4) to see the sort of cars my thundershot is competing with (they even included F1 cars!) :)

 

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19 hours ago, markbt73 said:

As for the parts breakers: let's just say I hope there's a very special, very warm place waiting for them eventually... when I can't find a kit because they bought 50 of them and are selling them off piece by piece, it just makes me furious. They're not hobbyists; they're vultures.

Without parts breakers there wouldn't be spare parts for many cars. If Tamiya made spares for all of their cars there wouldn't be a need for kit breakers, but they don't. I'm glad they are out there as I don't do shelf queens.

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Its interesting AND frustrating.

I picked a BigWig up for a good price just before they started to head up again in price.

SuperHotShot and HotShot both picked up 2nd hand from others (yet to be built but with bodies done, luckily that's the bit I like to do to do and the bit I dont like done)

I picked up a clean Vanquish about a year before the shock re-re (which I would not have paid the asking price on as my vintage was expensive enough OR so I thought)

but as I now have all the buggies I was hankering after AND filled all my display case space I have sort of lost my mo-jo........for now.

I know a lot of people say it comes and goes in cycles - as such i am reluctant to sell of anything other than spares i have that I know I will not need. I know from some hard lessons that Tamiya vintage models are NOT to be bashed the same way a modern buggy can. As a speed and jump freak they will just get destroyed. As such they are to be enjoyed for what they are, a link to my childhood that I spent hours pouring over the Tamiya Guide Books, and videos at the 

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While I don't care for the vulture-esque nature of part breakers, I do agree they fill a need that wouldn't be there if Tamiya stepped up with spare parts support. I don't shame them for not keeping spares in stock forever, but if they re-release something, they should back it up with spares for a period of time. Since they sell outside of Japan, foreign markets deserve spares too. I've grown very weary of the rush and panic to buy supposed limited re-release vehicles or worse, hop-ups like Hicaps shocks. Again, I understand why they don't flood the market, to a degree, but this anxiety over obtaining "special" vehicles or parts has grown thin. Perhaps that's why the Vanquish didn't grab me despite being a childhood favorite. I'm not going to bite this time. Life won't be that much better if I got one and any feeling of "victory" procuring one would be fleeting in the end. I got off the ride because its not fun anymore.

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On 11/9/2020 at 1:48 PM, mud4fun said:

I'm not sure that policy is working though? For example, my daughter's and I were discussing this yesterday and we are looking to switching to Schumacher or Associated buggies. Now I'm a life long Tamiya fan but they won't support their existing buggies (or their re-releases) with good parts backup meaning it is getting to the point where we simply can't use them for fear of breakages AND they haven't produced a genuinely modern competitive buggy for decades. So that leaves us no option but to switch to manufacturers who do support their products. 

I agree and have said this many times only to be told there are plenty of spares if you look around. Unfortunately, there just isn't.  If any other manufacturers released kits with zero spares they would be dragged through the mud backwards.  Do tamiya not want us to drive their cars?  

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7 hours ago, slimleeroy said:

I agree and have said this many times only to be told there are plenty of spares if you look around. Unfortunately, there just isn't.  

I don't know what cars those people own but they clearly aren't running an Avante2001, Vanquish or Egress!!! Spares have been almost non existent for decades, certainly in the volumes you need (and at affordable prices) to run/race the cars regularly. Even with the re-released Avante class buggies. The only reliable parts supply has come from kit breakers NOT official spare parts supply chain.

Sure, there are loads of parts for the very cheap bargain basement kits because they have been regurgitated so many times and in vast quantities that the market is flooded with them. I am not talking about those though as they are not the sort of buggies we would want to own or race. 

People have very different ideas of what 'running' means. In a market dominated by shelf queen collectors (certainly at the high end of the 4WD buggies) it has been distorted to 'light use, on a dry day, for 20 mins a year' so likely chance of breaking anything near zero. In my case running means hard regular use bashing and racing, as much as 40 hours driving time a year per buggy over thousands of laps of our very rough mixed surface garden track (mud, gravel, jumps and grass) or doing hundreds of jumps or beach running and other 'daft' things that used to be common with buggies before the shelf queen ideology took hold. Also we are often racing three or four cars at the same time and in the heat and excitement of a race accidents happen regularly..... :)

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13 hours ago, slimleeroy said:

I agree and have said this many times only to be told there are plenty of spares if you look around. Unfortunately, there just isn't. 

I've been reading post on the subject and tend to agree with you @slimleeroy. In theory, as a US resident I shouldn't have to track down spares through odd far east channels or kit breakers at all. Ideally, since we have Tamiya USA, they should be supplied with all the spares we need in the States for a reasonable amount of time. I have the feeling sometimes that Tamiya USA is kept in the dark as much as we hobbyist are when comes to the mysteries of Tamiya Japan. They seem to basically get whatever Tamiya Japan sends and that's it and have very little input on how/what Tamiya Japan does. Again, this is all conjecture on my part.

5 hours ago, mud4fun said:

People have very different ideas of what 'running' means. In a market dominated by shelf queen collectors (certainly at the high end of the 4WD buggies) it has been distorted to 'light use, on a dry day, for 20 mins a year' so likely chance of breaking anything near zero. In my case running means hard regular use bashing and racing, as much as 40 hours driving time a year per buggy over thousands of laps of our very rough mixed surface garden track (mud, gravel, jumps and grass) or doing hundreds of jumps or beach running and other 'daft' things that used to be common with buggies before the shelf queen ideology took hold. Also we are often racing three or four cars at the same time and in the heat and excitement of a race accidents happen regularly..... :)

Very true. I never condone abusing cars or running them clearly outside their limits for destructive purposes but they should still be driven as they were meant to be. Accidents happen. Things naturally break. I have shelf queens and I have runners. That said, I like to drive my runners fear and guilt-free because that takes away from the experience. An Egress was/is a race buggy and should be seen as possibly seeing that kind of action in use. That means potential breakage in race situations and a need for parts. Considering its intended purpose and price tag, that's not too much to ask. In the case of the Egress, I can't just give Tamiya a pass because "well, its a Tamiya, you know how their spares situation is" or "Tamiyas aren't normally race buggies, so go easy on them". 

I understand the sheer volume of different models puts Tamiya in a tough spot with spares. With a limited line of race oriented vehicles, like Losi or Associated, a company can offer good parts support for some time. It could be a simple situation of Tamiya producing spares in the same ratio to the number of re-re kits that were sold. Collectors and owners of old cars gobble them up quickly and once they're gone, they're gone. That's tough for the guy who bought an Egress and finds no spares a year later when they have a random breakage and now have a $450.00 paperweight sitting on the workbench.

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@Saito2 yes agreed but pushing a car past its original design intentions is a grey area and Open to interpretation......:P

My thundershot is arguably being pushed well beyond its intended use. Being used as a tarmac racer with lowered suspension, carpet tyres, 13T tarmac race motor and LiPo and 35-40mph too speed - probably not what the Tamiya designer had in mind :D BUT it is performing superbly in the postal racing competition, proving to be very quick and very reliable. As you know I have numerous other buggies including Egress/Avante2001 but my go to buggy for racing is the Thundershot. Yes, in part that is due to fragility of the Avante class and the scarceness and price of parts but to a larger degree it is because the Thundershot is the better car in virtually every respect. Who wants to drive a car that you have to pray it will last the 5 minute race duration..... 

It is a shame Tamiya wasted so much time and money in the late 80's and 90's on constantly developing whole new cars instead of concentrating their efforts on a smaller range and then properly supporting them.

I would argue Tamiyas failure in buggy racing was due to lack of support and development of their existing chassis (and their drivers) rather than their buggies being totally outclassed. I used to race my thundershot against Schumacher, Associated and Kyosho buggies in the early 90's and yeah, I never won a race with it but I came damned close a few times and that was with a largely stock buggy and I could not afford decent motors etc either and I'm not even that good a driver!!!. Given a few minor changes to the design and a better range of springs etc I am confident I could have won races against buggies supposedly far superior. It seems Tamiya have an odd attitude. Almost like their business model is to turnover model designs frequently and forget about developing or supporting existing chassis once a new one comes along. Glad I never paid out for a TRF!!!

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