Please stop complaining about the prices of the re-re

[GTodd 1350]

I noticed around the time of the release of the 2018 Super Astute that people began to complain alot about the price of the re-re. Prior to that I dont recall reading people complaining about the prices of the Bruiser, Avante, Super Champ etc as everyone understood that 1) they had been out of production for decades, 2) even if molds still existed retooling and improvements were needed, and 3) Tamiya needed to make a profit.  

Then the Super Astute was anounced, I was and still am over the moon for that release as I could finally use my Child Hood OG Astute again due to spare bodies, a better TTC, etc etc etc. Others just complained that it was too much, too near to the cost of the more cabable Top Force, on and on. Yet the Top force and its parts have pretty much been in production non stop. 

Fast foward 2 more years, we finaly get a vanquish and what happends? The same. Its too expensive, the tub is plastic, theres no aloy parts etc etc etc.

For the vanquish 80% of the parts havent been made in DECADEs, The vanquish Tub, rods, rod ends, tires, shock towers, bumpers, body....havent been made since Reagan was President and there was a wall in Germany.

ALL of the Super Astute Parts hadnt been made since Bush 1 was presdent.

It takes alot of investment to turn on a line thats been off, and just make it run again. To start production of parts that havent been made in decades costs 10 folds more, technology has moved on, I doubt Tamiya is using the same process.

Tamiya has said they listens to their customers, where do you think they go? Places like this amazing site. You want a 959/Celica, Kingcab, 934/935 then stop complaining about the price.

Im a big VW fan, I LOVE GTIs, From about 1993-2003 the GTI stunk it became a heavy car with a soft suspension, week engines, eco car seats, lame  brakes, etc. Why people complained the suspensions were too hard, the brakes loud, the engines too loud, the seats bolsters were stiff...... In 2003 VW brought out the 337 GTI enthusiasts loved it Recaros returned, brake ducts returned, BBS Wheels, amazing engine and exhaust and then came the complaints. The MK5 GTI came after it was still and is a great car but the edge is gone.

We've asked for reres, remember having to wait years for an Avante gearbox or driver to show up on ebay for $300 us.... Lets not ruin t. 

[MadInventor 3884]

I see where you're coming from, but I can remember buying my hotshot re-re in 2007 for £3 more than it cost me in 1986, a 31year gap and a 0.03% increase in price. Fast forward 13 years and the price has gone up over 80% (From the 2007 price, not the 1986 price).

[GTodd 1350]

 

5 minutes ago, MadInventor said:

I see where you're coming from, but I can remember buying my hotshot re-re in 2007 for £3 more than it cost me in 1986, a 31year gap and a 0.03% increase in price. Fast forward 13 years and the price has gone up over 80% (From the 2007 price, not the 1986 price).

That's due to your all's inflation of near 26 percent since 2009. 

[YGBSM 14]

My August 1988 copy of Radio Scale Modeler advertised the Avante with motor for $339, which equals $741.78 in today's dollars.  Seeing as how you can get a new re re Avante for less than $500 today, I'd say progress has been a good thing. 

[Matty36 267]

I just buy something if I like it, the price is a small factor. If they re released the ta01 escort cosworth, I would probably buy it even if it was expensive, but only if funds allow. I bought a new old stock team associated B5M champions edition this year, even though it was as expensive as the newer B6, because i had one when it was first released in 2013 but had to sell it later in 2013.

[GTodd 1350]

26 minutes ago, YGBSM said:

My August 1988 copy of Radio Scale Modeler advertised the Avante with motor for $339, which equals $741.78 in today's dollars.  Seeing as how you can get a new re re Avante for less than $500 today, I'd say progress has been a good thing. 

Spot on!!! I should've included that in my rant!

[MadInventor 3884]

1 hour ago, GTodd said:

 

That's due to your all's inflation of near 26 percent since 2009. 

So inflation went up 26% and the price went up over 80% 

And what about inflation from 1986 to 2007 ?

Not entirely disagreeing with you about prices if you go back far enough to the 80s, however, for some of our newer members who may have only come into the hobby in the last 10 years, the cost of some of the newer, more expensive releases could seem quite exorbitant, and it seems like prices have gone up sharply in the last 2 or 3 years.

 

 

 

[Norco Kid 62]

I have to disagree. I think people give too much slack to companies that milk their customers for all they're worth. I would bet that producing these re-re's with modern technology and in much higher volume it's costing Tamiya a lot less to manufacture than in did back in the 80s and that their percentage of profit margin per kit is likely a lot higher. They are taking advantage of the fact that the re-res are much less expensive than the current market price for the originals, but it doesn't mean that they are a good value for what they are. Don't get me wrong, I love the re-re's and I'm still buying them, but the value is not good and I accept that. The whole RC hobby in general has gotten very greedy lately.

[Champ85 609]

I think Tamiya has been on a bender lately (the past couple of years) where they have been clamping down on retailers that are "undercutting" their brand by pricing kits and parts too low for their liking.  I'm talking about Banzai (more than a year ago) and another online seller that was discussed on this forum recently that I can't find the name of right now.  Banzai got cut off from Tamiya completely as a result (and still is) while the other more-recent seller had a bit of renegotiating happen before sales of Tamiya products resumed after a few days of suspension.  

Tamiya has made changes to pricing all over the world recently to almost MAP-style levels (Minimum Advertised Price).  Tamiya have redefined themselves as a "premium brand" that therefore commands "premium pricing".   You may or may not agree with this assessment of theirs, of course.

I think Tamiya did some internal auditing, external discovery, and financial analysis to determine that in order for the company to continue to exist they needed to raise prices and enforce world-wide consistent pricing or face financial ruin in the long term. 

 

[GTodd 1350]

49 minutes ago, Norco Kid said:

I have to disagree. I think people give too much slack to companies that milk their customers for all they're worth. I would bet that producing these re-re's with modern technology and in much higher volume it's costing Tamiya a lot less to manufacture than in did back in the 80s and that their percentage of profit margin per kit is likely a lot higher. They are taking advantage of the fact that the re-res are much less expensive than the current market price for the originals, but it doesn't mean that they are a good value for what they are. Don't get me wrong, I love the re-re's and I'm still buying them, but the value is not good and I accept that. The whole RC hobby in general has gotten very greedy lately.

In the long run it might be cheaper, but there is a huge sunk coat that they need to recoup. Why do you think low production TRFs, Tanks, Semi, etc are so expensive? The initial cost to get it going is exhorbidently expensive.

[Mrowka 496]

Lots of things have gotten cheaper since Reagan was the president of the United States. 

To some extent, technology is responsible, cheap fuel to some extent, but a lot of it is because manufacturing has been outsourced to low-wage countries.

Therefore, to determine whether a Tamiya model is overpriced in today's terms, don't compare to yesterday's prices for the same product. Instead, compare with what else is available today.

[EvilSpike 294]

20 minutes ago, Mrowka said:

Therefore, to determine whether a Tamiya model is overpriced in today's terms, don't compare to yesterday's prices for the same product. Instead, compare with what else is available today.

Compare the Vanquish to the Terra Scorcher. Is one really twice the production cost to the other?

Terra Scorcher £189

VQS £385

Someone is taping the piste, and I don't think it's Modelsport...

[rwordenjr 1890]

37 minutes ago, Mrowka said:

Lots of things have gotten cheaper since Reagan was the president of the United States. 

To some extent, technology is responsible, cheap fuel to some extent, but a lot of it is because manufacturing has been outsourced to low-wage countries.

Therefore, to determine whether a Tamiya model is overpriced in today's terms, don't compare to yesterday's prices for the same product. Instead, compare with what else is available today.

Bingo. For the same price, The tamiyas will get run out of the building. 

[GTodd 1350]

Compared to what? Their RC Tanks , no.comparison, Semis no comparison, Gorgeous Hard Body multiple speed Trucks, maybe RC 4wd but they are just clones of the original . What manufacturer makes buggies that aren't hideous track only ones? When Tamiya did TRF 2wd and 4wd they were as competitive as everyone else. But that's not what this post is about. 

 

It's about nastalgia and how it's not cheap to just turn on a production line. I've ran multiple manufacturing companies, you can't just flip a switch and voila 1989 car.

[Fuijo 880]

I agree with GTodd. I don't really understand the point of complaining about the prices, much less throwing the occasional insult
like "greedy" around.
Tamiya are in business to make money. As much money as they can. As long as they aren't doing anything illegal or unethical, I don't
see any problem with that.

There are large numbers of people who have returned to the hobby because of the re-releases. Either because they were one of the lucky
few who had one as a kid and want to relive those happy memories, or perhaps more commonly, because they simply couldn't afford one back in the day.
I don't remember anyone I knew complaining about it back then. If you couldn't afford one, then that was that. You just accepted it, or
you took every newspaper round, Saturday job or just any odd job you could get, until after usually a very long time you had enough to buy one.
Complaining about the price was pointless and got you nowhere. Everyone knew that, so no one did.

Tamiya charge what the market will bear. In fact, as has been proven several times, they often charge below what the market will bear.
The Avante Black special was over 400USD when it was first released, then by the end of the first batch changed hands on ebay for 1000USD,
then dropped to below 400USD by the tail end of the second batch. There was a similar pattern with the Fighting Buggy, and now again
with the Wild One to name but a few.
If people can and do pay prices way in excess of the official release price, how are Tamiya charging too much?

The price is the price. It will fluctuate massively over several years. So you do your research, find out when it's likely to be as cheap
as it's going to get, and then you either decide if you can afford it and whether it's worth that much to you. If you can and it is then
you buy it. If you can't or it's not then you don't.

[mud4fun 1696]

They can charge what they want, just means I won't buy one.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you @GTodd however this year is an exception, I believe the pricing is now verging on profiteering - taking advantage of people in a miserable situation is not a good look. 

The £179 we paid for the re-re Terra Scorcher was perfectly acceptable but the prices now being asked for the VQS are far too high IMHO for a largely plastic buggy with virtually no difference in performance to the Terra Scorcher and with a guaranteed lack of parts supply 12 months from now. At that price I can buy a modern race buggy instead and get proper parts backup too.

EDIT: I have never left the hobby, the kids and I have been racing our Tamiya cars for decades BUT the lockdowns are the main reason I returned to this site as we had far more time to do builds and restorations of existing buggies. 

 

[Grumpy pants 4485]

I think it is pretty straight forward really there are a huge number of people that are employed and that need to be paid, dozens of hidden costs, shipping, VAT, rates, Corporation tax, etc, etc and every company has to turn a worth while profit to survive, attract talent and to develop new lines. 
 
Aside from the over riding factor that no one is forcing you to buy anything from Tamiya.

I think moaning about the lack of bearings and hop ups is tedious as well.

[Fuijo 880]

42 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

I believe the pricing is now verging on profiteering - taking advantage of people in a miserable situation is not a good look. 

This is simply not true though is it? Another completely baseless accusation.

The Cambridge dictionary defines profiteering as "the act of taking advantage of a situation in order to make a profit, usually by charging high prices for things people need".

I could understand the accusation for items on your weekly food and essential supplies shopping list where you feel you don't have any choice whether to buy it or not, but a toy car? Come off it.

You don't need a toy car, you just want one. People in genuinely miserable situations aren't going to be thinking about buying toy cars at all.

If you don't like the price, just don't buy it. If enough people agree and also don't buy it, the price will come down. If they don't it wont.

[GTodd 1350]

1 hour ago, mud4fun said:

.....

 

The £179 we paid for the re-re Terra Scorcher was perfectly acceptable but the prices now being asked for the VQS are far too high IMHO for a largely plastic buggy with virtually no difference in performance to the Terra Scorcher and with a guaranteed lack of parts supply 12 months from now. At that price I can buy a modern race buggy instead and get proper parts backup too.

. .....

 

This is another poor examole in my opinion. The Thundershot and the Fire dragon came before, the only one new part, the motor mount. Even the body has been produced two separate time. Every other part has been made previously. The last time a Vanquish chassis or bumper was made we were still on I'm school or not even around.

[Superluminal 3750]

Ive preordered one. I didnt pay too much attention to the price. But I really enjoy complaining - can I still complain?

[taffer 948]

Terra scorcher had new Motor mount, Modern cvd's all around, turnbuckles but missing hardened gearbox joints ....

If it was £100 cheaper or more (vqs) it would probably be impossible to get hold of because of demand!? 😁

[Gazzalene 171]

Regards the RE-RE`s, you can take all the stuff like inflation, manufacturing changes, part tweeking,parts availability for older models and MrT earning a profit BUT its all down to the same old thing over pricing. Take the Avante,Egress and the large RC semi`s lets say those three round out at £/$ 450.  there are far more people who can not justify OR afford that than those who can. now you drop that to say 350-380 and the sales go up,enough to outway the original 450.

these high prices are put on items to make them "special" and wanted they do not care that sales will be less because they make so much profit at the high price. Does anyone really know how much each Avante kit actually costs to make???? I bet you would be surprised how cheap.

 

[taffer 948]

I won't be getting a vqs, not because of the price it's because it's performance won't be better than my tshot to justify the extra costs.....

It's a pity that if new products are understandably have increased prices that older products (or hornet and hotshot) have been around long enough that tamiya could reduce the price slightly.....

[yogi-bear 2321]

I don't have a problem with Tamiya's pricing on Re-Re's or with any other manufacturer. While I would always like cheaper prices, at the end of the day Tamiya and any other RC manufacturer have to make a profit, and its better in the long term if that is a healthy profit - because then they will around to offer more goods. Given the amount of choice available, if they are truely too expensive then the market will dictate this and they won't sell many, which means they drop the prices or they discontinue the offering. If I want something, then I find the cheapest price, determine if I'm willing to pay go from there. If I don't like the price, then I don't buy, but I doubt I would conclude that Tamiya is being greedy. That would only be the case if Tamiya where the only RC manufacturer.

3 minutes ago, Gazzalene said:

Regards the RE-RE`s, you can take all the stuff like inflation, manufacturing changes, part tweeking,parts availability for older models and MrT earning a profit BUT its all down to the same old thing over pricing. Take the Avante,Egress and the large RC semi`s lets say those three round out at £/$ 450.  there are far more people who can not justify OR afford that than those who can. now you drop that to say 350-380 and the sales go up,enough to outway the original 450.

these high prices are put on items to make them "special" and wanted they do not care that sales will be less because they make so much profit at the high price. Does anyone really know how much each Avante kit actually costs to make???? I bet you would be surprised how cheap.

And that is completely Tamiya's prerogative to do that. Given that they continue to do it, it must been meeting their objectives. Also the cost of a kit isn't the only consideration, as mentioned before there is a lot of setup, admin etc that also have to be taken into account. Also Tamiya only have a finite amount of production, so that would also have to be factored in. It would absolutely be in Tamiya's interest to only do short runs of some kits, I don't have a problem with this either, its their product, and nobody is force to buy it.

[Saito2 6686]

16 hours ago, GTodd said:

It's about nastalgia and how it's not cheap to just turn on a production line. I've ran multiple manufacturing companies, you can't just flip a switch and voila 1989 car.

 

11 hours ago, GTodd said:

The Thundershot and the Fire dragon came before, the only one new part, the motor mount. Even the body has been produced two separate time. Every other part has been made previously. The last time a Vanquish chassis or bumper was made we were still on I'm school or not even around.

Sorry for the aside. Its not my intent to be drawn into this debate. Since you ran multiple manufacturing companies @GTodd, perhaps you can provide some enlightenment. What cost are incurred from reviving a model from the 80's (like the Vanquish or rather, just the Vanquish-specific parts and not those already brought out in the Avante/Egress re-re) vs a model that had be re-re'd in 2005 (like the Thundershot, or rather those parts used in the Terra Scorcher)?

It was always my idea that molds (unchanged for the most part in Tamiya re-res), if stored properly, could be removed from storage, cleaned up and put into use again. Now, if the molds were damaged through poor storage practices or mishandled, that would incur more expenditure to repair them and get them up to snuff for implementation again. The most expensive example being having to remake the whole mold (along the lines of what I believe Kyosho has done). I would guess a mold that saw high use BITD, might need repair just because of that fact too.

I feel I must be missing something though. The example is sighted that buggies that have been around (or rather their parts) through the years like the Top Force are somehow cheaper to produce. It would be my guess those molds would be more worn from higher use. Again, I believe I don't have all the pieces to the puzzle and would just like enlightenment on the subject. I no longer have an opinion on what Tamiya charges as I may have in the past.