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GTodd

Please stop complaining about the prices of the re-re

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I hold my hand up! I have had a moan about the price of the vqs simply because I can't justify paying that much money for a predominantly plastic kit and I'm at the point with my collection that I need to justify what I buy! and I agree with the comments that tamiya need to earn a profit and I really want to see tamiya prosper and make money so it can still be able to do what they are doing bringing fantastic models to the enthusiast like all of us on this site, It is a fantastic buggy I was just disappointed it wasn't a bit cheaper or it had some good special parts in it like a special motor etc?

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Well folks, the alternative is to buy a lathe, a milling machine, and a 3D printer, and make your own (That will leave a smoking hole where your bank account used to be before you even start). When it takes you 3-4 years to build something from scratch you'll appreciate just being able to open a box and have all the bits there waiting for you. :ph34r:

 

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I know this topic can go on and on BUT my last comment is this. Yes there are other costs to add on to a kit`s price, not just manufacture but admin etc and of course R+R

But What ever the cost Tamiya sells is not the absolute AND yes I know they can ask what ever price they want AND if you can not afford it bad luck or don't go with Tamiya.

Its the same with all products, take new "real" cars. immense costs there, big R+R etc etc etc. But that dealer can still do me "that deal"  you know why? more sales at lower price still makes more money or they could no do it.

At the end of the everyone does what that feel is right,you buy or not OR go different brand. How much would that TBLE2 cost if it was not marked Tamiya?    

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10 hours ago, GTodd said:

Compared to what? Their RC Tanks , no.comparison, Semis no comparison, Gorgeous Hard Body multiple speed Trucks, maybe RC 4wd but they are just clones of the original . What manufacturer makes buggies that aren't hideous track only ones? When Tamiya did TRF 2wd and 4wd they were as competitive as everyone else. But that's not what this post is about. 

 

It's about nastalgia and how it's not cheap to just turn on a production line. I've ran multiple manufacturing companies, you can't just flip a switch and voila 1989 car.

All that figures into the price, nostalgia as well. The question for the buyer is: are those things worth what Tamiya charges, or is a substitute a better option for you?

Don't get me wrong, I like Tamiya, but I am not especially sentimental or nostalgic.

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5 hours ago, Fuijo said:

This is simply not true though is it? Another completely baseless accusation.

The Cambridge dictionary defines profiteering as "the act of taking advantage of a situation in order to make a profit, usually by charging high prices for things people need".

I could understand the accusation for items on your weekly food and essential supplies shopping list where you feel you don't have any choice whether to buy it or not, but a toy car? Come off it.

You don't need a toy car, you just want one. People in genuinely miserable situations aren't going to be thinking about buying toy cars at all.

If you don't like the price, just don't buy it. If enough people agree and also don't buy it, the price will come down. If they don't it wont.

Who are you to decide what is a necessity or not for me? 

I already have a vanquish so don't need another one. I do however need parts in order to keep my existing one running. Instead of producing large runs of parts to allow existing cars to be revived or maintained Tamiya choose to charge high price for a whole new kit which most of us don't need. I don't see why I should pay £350+ to get two or three parts that would cost Tamiya a few pounds to produce. So my choice is have a buggy I can't use or buy a whole new one? Not a chance. At that sort of price it is getting into the price range of brand new modern race buggy designs from other manufacturers and my money will be spent with them instead. 

 

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35 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

Who are you to decide what is a necessity or not for me?

Well, I'm someone who knows that model car kits are a necessity for no one.

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39 minutes ago, Fuijo said:

Well, I'm someone who knows that model car kits are a necessity for no one.

I don't want a kit, I need some parts to get an existing car running.

Of course it is not a necessity of life but then life would be very boring if all you bought were food, clothes and a roof over your head. 

In this miserable time AS IN BEING LOCKED UP AND UNABLE TO GO ANYWHERE I rather consider my hobbies to be an essential means of retaining my sanity, enjoying myself and keeping my mental health and wellbeing in good order. So I'd quite like to be able to buy parts to fix my cars so I can run them.

If you don't understand that I'm sorry but we each have our own ideas of what is important to us and what price those things are worth. 

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To everybody talking about a company having to make a profit to survive Tamiya can still do that by lowering prices and increasing volume. They're choosing to instead restrict supply and jack up prices, which is helping scalpers more than anyone. Imagine how many they would sell if anyone who actually wanted one of these models could buy them at a fair price...

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3 hours ago, Norco Kid said:

To everybody talking about a company having to make a profit to survive Tamiya can still do that by lowering prices and increasing volume. They're choosing to instead restrict supply and jack up prices, which is helping scalpers more than anyone. Imagine how many they would sell if anyone who actually wanted one of these models could buy them at a fair price...

Business doesn't work like that.  Tamiya KNOWs there is limited demand.  They'll creat X number of kits for Y number of customers based on research they conduct. They can't saturate the market because they need a return on their on their investment in a time dictated by their business model.  If they saturate the market at a lower price and still only X number of people purchase they are now at a loss. 

Apologies and I don't mean to be insulting but alot of comments here are based on emotions and not facts. It's be really nice if Tamiya made 1 million Rere vanquish and sold it at $100 us, but when they lose money because they only sold 100,000 you all will.complain when the other models prices go up.

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4 hours ago, mud4fun said:

Who are you to decide what is a necessity or not for me? 

I already have a vanquish so don't need another one. I do however need parts in order to keep my existing one running. Instead of producing large runs of parts to allow existing cars to be revived or maintained Tamiya choose to charge high price for a whole new kit which most of us don't need. I don't see why I should pay £350+ to get two or three parts that would cost Tamiya a few pounds to produce. So my choice is have a buggy I can't use or buy a whole new one? Not a chance. At that sort of price it is getting into the price range of brand new modern race buggy designs from other manufacturers and my money will be spent with them instead. 

 

Your first error is trying to compare a modern race buggy to the VQS. Just because they cost the same doesn't mean they compete in the same market. That's like saying well I really need a pick up truck for work but because it's as expensive as a Corvette I'm going to buy the Corvette instead.

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3 hours ago, GTodd said:

Apologies and I don't mean to be insulting but alot of comments here are based on emotions and not facts. It's be really nice if Tamiya made 1 million Rere vanquish and sold it at $100 us, but when they lose money because they only sold 100,000 you all will.complain when the other models prices go up.

Tamiya was selling the Bruiser re-re for $1000 a few years back. They cut that price to $500 after the clone came out. They would not have lowered the price to a point they would take a loss. Facts.

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1 hour ago, Biz73 said:

Tamiya was selling the Bruiser re-re for $1000 a few years back. They cut that price to $500 after the clone came out. They would not have lowered the price to a point they would take a loss. Facts

Doesnt mean it was over priced, means Tamiya had to possibly take a loss in order to recoup as much investment as possible. 

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I'm dying to get a new Kingcab and probably will whatever the price is, but I also know that's my own personal bias.  If it's really expensive I might only buy one and grumble about it.  If others say they won't buy it at all, I won't blame them.  Any manufacturer knows the fans are the hardest to please at times (if ever).  Doesn't mean they should be let off the hook if people have valid opinions.

To use a car analogy much like GTodd's, I was a big fan of turbocharged Mazdas in my youth.  I dipped into owning rotary engine cars and as much as I liked them I also made a lot of excuses for them.  Then I bought a Honda and it was incredible.  The cars were better built, cost less, and reliability was off the charts compared to the Mazdas, yet they were just as enjoyable.  I still liked the Mazdas but I could see how I was fooling myself about what they were like to own.

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16 hours ago, GTodd said:

Your first error is trying to compare a modern race buggy to the VQS. Just because they cost the same doesn't mean they compete in the same market. That's like saying well I really need a pick up truck for work but because it's as expensive as a Corvette I'm going to buy the Corvette instead.

 

I'd buy the corvette. If there is ever a choice in life between buying a corvette, and not buying a corvette, you should always buy the corvette :) :) :)

 

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17 hours ago, GTodd said:

Your first error is trying to compare a modern race buggy to the VQS. Just because they cost the same doesn't mean they compete in the same market. That's like saying well I really need a pick up truck for work but because it's as expensive as a Corvette I'm going to buy the Corvette instead.

Sorry @GTodd, misunderstanding there. I wasn't comparing the cars themselves. I was simply saying that for me, at the price being asked for the VQS, I would rather spend it on a modern buggy. The limit for me in even contemplating buying a re-re vintage buggy (with little to no parts backup) would be maybe £250, over that and I would much rather spend that money on a car I can get good after sales support for. Each of us will have our own personal limits and ideas of what is good value or not. However I believe we all have the right to comment on a price and what we think of Tamiyas marketing strategy or business model. Naturally opinions will differ but I certainly don't agree with asking people to remain quiet just because their opinion doesn't happen to agree with mine. :)

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13 hours ago, GTodd said:

Doesnt mean it was over priced, means Tamiya had to possibly take a loss in order to recoup as much investment as possible. 

I think @GTodd is just trying to stir the pot and keep this thread going. The majority agrees that they are overpriced, but It's clear that his viewpoint is fixed and he is trying to "educate" us with unsubstantiated theories and wild assumptions.  Do you really think the Chinese can sell a replica bruiser for $200 and STILL make a profit, but Tamiya is taking a loss at 500? I've shared my thoughts, I'm out.

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The golden age of buying tamiyas seem to have been between 2004-2008 before the world market crash.

Kits new and rere were so cheap compared to today, prob won't see those days again!

In someway it's not the cost of the kits which are the issue it's there's so many that we want!

If the only kit out there to buy was a £600 bruiser I'd probably have half a dozen of them by now! 

I'd prefer to have difficult choices of what we have, then only the one choice!

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1 hour ago, Norco Kid said:

I think @GTodd is just trying to stir the pot and keep this thread going.

No, this is what you are doing. With this,

1 hour ago, Norco Kid said:

The majority agrees that they are overpriced, but It's clear that his viewpoint is fixed and he is trying to "educate" us with unsubstantiated theories and wild assumptions.

and this.

1 hour ago, Norco Kid said:

Do you really think the Chinese can sell a replica bruiser for $200 and STILL make a profit, but Tamiya is taking a loss at 500?

Nobody knows whether they are overpriced or not unless they work for Tamiya.

The Chinese Bruiser is not in any way comparable to the Tamiya one. Tamiya use their own R&D, they don't steal other peoples. Tamiya have ethical working practices.

But you know that, which is why you posted and legged it.

1 hour ago, Norco Kid said:

I've shared my thoughts, I'm out.

 

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6 hours ago, Norco Kid said:

...

Do you really think the Chinese can sell a replica bruiser for $200 and STILL make a profit, but Tamiya is taking a loss at 500? I've shared my thoughts, I'm out.

I think Chinese companies can operate on much lower overhead and are much better are cutting corners. I have the clone and I like the clone and think its comparatively well made, but I know its not made to the same standard as Tamiya. What does baffle me with both of them is why they didn't improve on the flaws.

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On 11/19/2020 at 3:16 PM, GTodd said:

Others just complained that it was too much, too near to the cost of the more cabable Top Force, on and on. Yet the Top force and its parts have pretty much been in production non stop. 

Hopefully things have settled a bit here and my 2 cents doesn't cause too much rancor. The above quote may have been a reference to statement I made in the past when other members were questioning which buggy to get, the Super Astute or Top Force. The SA ran about $275 and the Top Force at $205, both at Tower hobbies. Simply taking into account what was supplied in both kits, I felt the Top Force was the better deal when you broke down the componentry and what you got for your money. I'm not guessing what it took Tamiya to bring the SA back. None of us truly knows. I even praised Tamiya for bringing the SA back, but strip aside passion and nostalgia, I felt one got "more" with the Top Force kit. I'm clarifying but not looking to rehash old debates. I no longer hold much opinion on it.

Tamiya charges what they charge. There have been times in the recent past, I've praised them for offering re-res at good prices. I felt the Bigwig and Terra Scorcher both represented good values, both being even cheaper than they were new. I bought the SA and enjoyed the build, but in the end felt it was too expensive for what I got. It was just my opinion whether means anything or not, I'm allowed to have it, just as others here are entitled to theirs. I can't comment on the Vanquish too much. I love the Vanquish as it was my best car from my childhood but the price is simply too high in my particular case. Being post-Covid, I can't possibly be positive or negative about its pricing as I have no idea of the ramifications of operating currently are for Tamiya. All I know is it too much for me currently. I'm not happy about it but that's the facts. They are all companies and they all are out for profit whether they are passionate about what they make or not.

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@Saito2 using my prior industrial and production engineering experience combined with owning and maintaining both Terra Scorcher and Vanquish buggies for over 30 years I'd suggest that I could produce both for under £150 in the UK including packaging costs, the caveat being that I had the original tooling in good condition. I would probably add an additional £10 per VQS kit for the re-re alloy hub carrier on the vanquish so let's say £160 for the VQS. Anything above that is profit IMHO and that is at UK manufacturing rates. I'd estimate that far east manufacturing rates would be significantly lower so profits would be higher.  So the £180 retail for Terra Scorcher was bang on what I would have expected. The difference between that and the VQS price is entirely profit as far as I can see. Now it could be the production runs on the VQS are significantly less than the Terra Scorcher but I see no evidence for that and if that were true it would mean Tamiya were actively choosing to keep prices high. Make of that what you will.

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16 hours ago, mud4fun said:

@Saito2 using my prior industrial and production engineering experience combined with owning and maintaining both Terra Scorcher and Vanquish buggies for over 30 years I'd suggest that I could produce both for under £150 in the UK including packaging costs, the caveat being that I had the original tooling in good condition. I would probably add an additional £10 per VQS kit for the re-re alloy hub carrier on the vanquish so let's say £160 for the VQS. Anything above that is profit IMHO and that is at UK manufacturing rates. I'd estimate that far east manufacturing rates would be significantly lower so profits would be higher.  So the £180 retail for Terra Scorcher was bang on what I would have expected. The difference between that and the VQS price is entirely profit as far as I can see. Now it could be the production runs on the VQS are significantly less than the Terra Scorcher but I see no evidence for that and if that were true it would mean Tamiya were actively choosing to keep prices high. Make of that what you will.

I assume that those price quotes depend upon production volume?

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31 minutes ago, Mrowka said:

I assume that those price quotes depend upon production volume?

yeah, I did a 'loose' calculation based on 1000 units of each. Don't know how many Tamiya are actually producing on these re-runs, maybe more than 1000 Terra Scorchers worldwide?

To be honest I'm not sure the tooling is in good condition which may explain why they are keeping volumes low and thus costs will be higher. Judging from my daughters re-re Terra Scorcher we noticed flashing in the gearboxes, very poor moulding on the bevel gears and some other minor issues with items that suggest the tooling is reaching end of usable life? However that would be common tooling with other thundershot based cars and they have now re-re'd quite a lot of them over the years so that may be expected.

The VQS is a different situation, not been re-re'd before and almost certainly didn't come close to the original production volumes of the thundershot based cars in the late 80's so as long as they were stored correctly the tooling should be in good condition but who knows? could have been damaged in storage and needed new tooling in which case that could be a good reason for significant increase in price over the terra scorcher. Other than that I have little explanation as both kits have very similar plastic sprue content, metal parts and screw bags, nothing particularly stands out in the kits to explain the extra £150.

I actually stripped and rebuilt a Vanquish back to as new spec at the same time my daughter was building her re-re terra scorcher so we had all the parts for both buggies laid out on benches at the same time. It was pretty clear that kit content was largely the same in terms of plastic items, axles, driveshafts etc. Other than the alloy hub carriers on the Vanquish (I actually fitted re-re Avante items to my Vanquish) the relative manufacturing costs would be close to the same if all other factors remained the same. So ultimately it would come down to condition of tooling OR production volumes IMHO.

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