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Please stop complaining about the prices of the re-re

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On 11/22/2020 at 8:58 PM, mud4fun said:

PS. I should add that in some bizarre twist of fate, my daughters other hobbies on top of RC cars and warhammer is model trains. They each have large OO gauge train layouts. They regularly watch a youtube channel for OO Neal and used to comment about how the guy in the video (building a train layout in his loft) had loads of RC cars that they really liked. They then discovered that the same guy had a channel call TrishBits and it turned out that he was an engineer at Schumacher..... They have since watched loads of his videos and have fallen in love with the Schumacher buggies. I did point out that Schumacher had not won a worlds in like 19 years but my kids told me off and said that they are determined to get a Schumacher to podium finish in an IFMAR worlds...... gotta love their optimism :D

I was lucky enough to speak to Trish when I called Schumacher support line for some help what a cool guy very helpful spent about 20 mins talking and trying to help resolve the issue. His video series is excellent have videos on building dampers, diffs, bearings, car setups and even other tricks and tips that are useful for racing or just general running. 

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On 11/22/2020 at 11:51 PM, mud4fun said:

@GTodd My father and I combined have over 80 years of production engineering experience and we think your comments are nonsense, I'm sorry but that is how we feel.

Operator costs (wages) are factored into the operational costs of a machine whether that be a CNC machining centre, press, welding robot or injection moulding machine. The setup costs are very high and that is why small batches are not done, especially where market forces dictate lower costs. We run large batches so that very high setup costs are minimised across the large volume of parts done in a batch. 

If you are so convinced that that the VQS retail price is justified (compared with the Terra Scorcher) can you please give me specific examples of the parts that you believe warrant the £150 extra retail price? I am curious to know what items you think are specifically more expensive to produce for the VQS than the Terra Scorcher? after all this is the basis of your assertion that any criticism of the price difference between Terra Scorcher and VQS is not justified?

Our opinion is that either the tooling was worn out and needed replacing (which is unlikely due to the Vanquish being produced in far lower volumes than original Thundershot and its various re-re's) or Tamiya have deliberately chosen to run off VQS in very small volumes which would create artificially high costs which goes against common sense OR the tooling was damaged in storage and needed replacing BUT if that was the case we do not believe that Tamiya would choose to re-release the model at all (as the costs would be more than the current retail price) OR Tamiya are looking to profit from the current situation.....

Also explain the pricing £200 at RcMart, €289 at Seidel and £349 in the UK. 

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@Avante2001R 100% agree re schumacher cars. I have 3 (all cougar iterations). I have raced them all at club and regional level (not that I'm any good 🤪) and they are phenomenal. I can still get parts for my cougar 2000 at very reasonable prices. They are robust, handle fabulously and use excellent materials. Don't get me wrong, I really like tamiya, particularly the 80s and 90s stuff but in terms of support and performance, tamiya can't really hold a candle to schumacher stuff (or pretty much any other rc company that has been going for a comparable length of time). It seems to me tamiya's more recent stuff - ie new stuff - is either trying to cater to a niche that has been  largely serviced by competitors, or simply no longer exists. 

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57 minutes ago, Silver-Can said:

@Avante2001R 100% agree re schumacher cars. I have 3 (all cougar iterations). I have raced them all at club and regional level (not that I'm any good 🤪) and they are phenomenal. I can still get parts for my cougar 2000 at very reasonable prices. They are robust, handle fabulously and use excellent materials. Don't get me wrong, I really like tamiya, particularly the 80s and 90s stuff but in terms of support and performance, tamiya can't really hold a candle to schumacher stuff (or pretty much any other rc company that has been going for a comparable length of time). It seems to me tamiya's more recent stuff - ie new stuff - is either trying to cater to a niche that has been  largely serviced by competitors, or simply no longer exists. 

100% agree I’m not bashing Tamiya with a valid reason, I fact I’ve owned Tamiya cars exclusively since 89. Only in recent years 2017 I bought a Yokomo YZ10 (which I sold shortly after to a collector as spares were impossible to find) they got a CAT XLS which was a great fun car to build and drive.. and recently got the L1 and Cougar Laydown. Ironically I paid VQS UK RRP money for the brand new L1 and Super Hotshot money for the Courgar laydown.

I like to drive my cars, most of my Tamiya cars I run lightly on grass I don’t believe in them being ornaments with out turning a wheel. Some people might argue that Tamiya cars cannot be compared to a modern buggy, I would disagree they are both RC cars. Tamiya re re cars stuck in the 80s and 90s made of brittle plastics. I get the nostalgia aspect, but what did we all do with our cars in the 80s and 90s? We raced them or bashed the badword out of them. I agree with the comments that Tamiya is now appealing to the collectors who want to have a line up of cars that will be put in display cabinets rather than driven or raced. Might explain the poor supply of parts that become discontinued just as the kits they re release. 

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Thanks @Silver-Can and @Avante2001R you have confirmed what I thought. Being British I would like to support Schumacher anyway but hearing your positive comments about them on top of many others recently I will bite the bullet early next year. I would be tempted to buy an L1 evo now but I'm getting a bit worried as to where this country is headed. If we aren't a full on communist state by next spring and the economy hasn't been completely destroyed and I manage to find another contract soon then I'll be spending some money with Schumacher :) 

The kids want Cougars but they were a bit above their xmas budgets, so they are saving up all the xmas and birthday money from family and hope to get them next year, well middle mudlet is for certain, not sure about youngest mudlet as she may end up with their stadium truck (Storm I think it is called?)

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30 minutes ago, mud4fun said:

Thanks @Silver-Can and @Avante2001R you have confirmed what I thought. Being British I would like to support Schumacher anyway but hearing your positive comments about them on top of many others recently I will bite the bullet early next year. I would be tempted to buy an L1 evo now but I'm getting a bit worried as to where this country is headed. If we aren't a full on communist state by next spring and the economy hasn't been completely destroyed and I manage to find another contract soon then I'll be spending some money with Schumacher :) 

The kids want Cougars but they were a bit above their xmas budgets, so they are saving up all the xmas and birthday money from family and hope to get them next year, well middle mudlet is for certain, not sure about youngest mudlet as she may end up with their stadium truck (Storm I think it is called?)

Stadium truck is the Storm yes.

Cougars are a great buggy, I guess with the madness of Tamiya you could probably sell a few and get some Schumacher cars instead might work out cheaper in the long run too :)

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26 minutes ago, Avante2001R said:

Stadium truck is the Storm yes.

Cougars are a great buggy, I guess with the madness of Tamiya you could probably sell a few and get some Schumacher cars instead might work out cheaper in the long run too :)

Sadly I have nothing that I'd want to sell, got shut of most of my huge collection years ago, just kept the 4 thundershots (and a huge spares stockpile) and 4 Avante class buggies (and a dwindling spares stockpile), the sand scorcher which was my first car, my DIY crawler and a king blackfoot which I would sell but is now broken after a huge smash a few months ago. 

No worries, we'll save up. I might sell off some of my Trains as I'm never gonna get the time to do my own layout.

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Sussed it out now everyone can relax - the reason why its so expensice is that parts bag A contains TWO wrenches.......phew for a second there even I had doubts about its value for money after opening the box.

 

 

Because if theres one thing i need more of its tamiya wrenches (and plastic bearings)

20201128_115225.jpg

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For me, i think the VQS is a little rich. Its not vastly overpriced as i originally thought. Its a beautiful kit it seems, but yes, a lot considering it contains very little by way of "exotic materials".

I think its worth what you want to pay, to keep Tamiya in business and also keep them keen to carry on with re-releases, as non of us would want that.

The Super Astute was, great to have done, but, a little lacking, just a few extra bits and jobs like front bearings, few other pieces, would not have made Tamiya bankrupt. So again, not massively overpriced, but a little lacking in a few more essentials.

The VQS is not a car on my radar as i wasnt a fan way back and its not grown on me since, but i think what they are charging for it, take that price and stick it on a Porsche, or Celica, im on it.

It does make me wonder what a TF Evolution would run at re-released today, food for thought if its done part for part including TI screws.

Bests...... Lee

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On the cost of re-releases, I often feel that they are priced too high in comparison to modern designs, even though Tamiya RC in general carries a higher cost of admission. The Super Astute, for example, is a really nice $175 kit, and would be worth the higher price if it used modern plastics. As a guy who loves running vintage stuff with modern electronics (I can experience the chassis without dealing with unreliable, poor performing and fragile electronics), it would be incredible to use a vintage platform without dealing with crispy ABS and having to maintain an inventory of spares. 

Some re-releases are very reasonable, however, like the Thundershot chassis cars, the Novafox, Top Force, etc. If I want a new kit but can't afford it, well, I guess that it wasn't meant to be, just like when I couldn't afford it the first time around. If Tamiya can't figure out how to turn a profit on re-releases, they'll stop doing them, so I'm glad that someone is buying the ones I can't get. Maybe I'll get a chance at them later.

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On 11/20/2020 at 12:33 AM, GTodd said:

In the long run it might be cheaper, but there is a huge sunk coat that they need to recoup. Why do you think low production TRFs, Tanks, Semi, etc are so expensive? The initial cost to get it going is exhorbidently expensive.

Sunk coat?

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The upfront development costs pre production that your initital unit sales have to fully cover with no profit?

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1 hour ago, slimleeroy said:

What is that?

I just made that up. But I'm guessing as Superluminal said, it's the money you've got to spend on jigs, tooling, design, before you make 1 item.  The money you've sink into a project before it gets going.

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3 hours ago, slimleeroy said:

Sunk coat?

It's a one time investment made for a project. Something that isn't reoccurring.  Good examples provided above. 

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8 hours ago, slimleeroy said:

What is that?

'Sink cost' is the price of a new kitchen that the wife wants to counter the RC costs , and be happy - for a while ;)

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Interesting topic. I really like Tamiya but I'm not a fanatic, kinda dangerous. I always felt that Tamiya is quite good with the business of marketing. A lot of RC brands get into the business from a racing angle where Tamiya is a toy company who has to focus a lot on traditional marketing strategies. To this day, their catalogs still make me drool.

Personally, I haven't complained about prices yet but sometimes I feel I'm getting ripped off with some of the Tamiya stuff, for a few reasons:

1. I feel that some brands and manufacturers are able to progress and offer kits with better parts, materials, and design for a price that is relatively reasonable. And then when I work on a Tamiya with ABS plastic, etc. it starts to feel like I got punk'd. I understand that Tamiya re-res are mostly purchased for nostalgia, but then when I build Kyosho re-res (they even provide upgraded parts for the weak parts on the original ones) I feel like I got my money's worth and it's easier for me to support a company like that (I wish more people did). I don't think twice about the Kyoshos, but sometimes I do with Tamiyas. For example, the Egress, I had to buy an alloy front hub for $30 (including ship) because it still comes with plastic (for a kit on that level), then on a Kyosho Javelin/Optima with a lower price point, they give me upgraded beefier aluminum dampers, alloy parts, slipper clutch, and even two options for drive (chain and belt). And of course, financially Tamiya is doing better but if Kyosho (even Schumacher and AE re-res) can improve their re-res for a reasonable price, then Tamiya can also do it and it will just make the fans feel better about the company.

2. I might be wrong here but sometimes I feel they don't produce enough re-res, it's like I only have a couple months window or so to decide before the stock is gone. And then those re-res go up in price. So it's a cycle of creating low supply, high demand, marketing nostalgia, and hype. If they can produce tons of TT02s, etc. why not re-res? And if molds wear, then perhaps they can put some of that money into developing new ones.

3. I feel it's okay to question prices and practices because companies will never think twice about what they're doing. Tamiya has many other products so I'm sure they can finance/improve some their RC products. And in the end, the consumer wins.

I didn't get the Vanquish re-re even if it meant discarding my nostalgic reasoning because I felt that was kinda like a scam lol—compared to something like a Schumacher CAT XLS. 

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1 hour ago, Mechanic AH said:

Interesting topic. I really like Tamiya but I'm not a fanatic, kinda dangerous. I always felt that Tamiya is quite good with the business of marketing. A lot of RC brands get into the business from a racing angle where Tamiya is a toy company who has to focus a lot on traditional marketing strategies. To this day, their catalogs still make me drool.

Personally, I haven't complained about prices yet but sometimes I feel I'm getting ripped off with some of the Tamiya stuff, for a few reasons:

1. I feel that some brands and manufacturers are able to progress and offer kits with better parts, materials, and design for a price that is relatively reasonable. And then when I work on a Tamiya with ABS plastic, etc. it starts to feel like I got punk'd. I understand that Tamiya re-res are mostly purchased for nostalgia, but then when I build Kyosho re-res (they even provide upgraded parts for the weak parts on the original ones) I feel like I got my money's worth and it's easier for me to support a company like that (I wish more people did). I don't think twice about the Kyoshos, but sometimes I do with Tamiyas. For example, the Egress, I had to buy an alloy front hub for $30 (including ship) because it still comes with plastic (for a kit on that level), then on a Kyosho Javelin/Optima with a lower price point, they give me upgraded beefier aluminum dampers, alloy parts, slipper clutch, and even two options for drive (chain and belt). And of course, financially Tamiya is doing better but if Kyosho (even Schumacher and AE re-res) can improve their re-res for a reasonable price, then Tamiya can also do it and it will just make the fans feel better about the company.

2. I might be wrong here but sometimes I feel they don't produce enough re-res, it's like I only have a couple months window or so to decide before the stock is gone. And then those re-res go up in price. So it's a cycle of creating low supply, high demand, marketing nostalgia, and hype. If they can produce tons of TT02s, etc. why not re-res? And if molds wear, then perhaps they can put some of that money into developing new ones.

3. I feel it's okay to question prices and practices because companies will never think twice about what they're doing. Tamiya has many other products so I'm sure they can finance/improve some their RC products. And in the end, the consumer wins.

I didn't get the Vanquish re-re even if it meant discarding my nostalgic reasoning because I felt that was kinda like a scam lol—compared to something like a Schumacher CAT XLS. 

Couldn’t agree with you more. 

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7 hours ago, Mechanic AH said:

Interesting topic. I really like Tamiya but I'm not a fanatic, kinda dangerous. I always felt that Tamiya is quite good with the business of marketing. A lot of RC brands get into the business from a racing angle where Tamiya is a toy company who has to focus a lot on traditional marketing strategies. To this day, their catalogs still make me drool.

Personally, I haven't complained about prices yet but sometimes I feel I'm getting ripped off with some of the Tamiya stuff, for a few reasons:

1. I feel that some brands and manufacturers are able to progress and offer kits with better parts, materials, and design for a price that is relatively reasonable. And then when I work on a Tamiya with ABS plastic, etc. it starts to feel like I got punk'd. I understand that Tamiya re-res are mostly purchased for nostalgia, but then when I build Kyosho re-res (they even provide upgraded parts for the weak parts on the original ones) I feel like I got my money's worth and it's easier for me to support a company like that (I wish more people did). I don't think twice about the Kyoshos, but sometimes I do with Tamiyas. For example, the Egress, I had to buy an alloy front hub for $30 (including ship) because it still comes with plastic (for a kit on that level), then on a Kyosho Javelin/Optima with a lower price point, they give me upgraded beefier aluminum dampers, alloy parts, slipper clutch, and even two options for drive (chain and belt). And of course, financially Tamiya is doing better but if Kyosho (even Schumacher and AE re-res) can improve their re-res for a reasonable price, then Tamiya can also do it and it will just make the fans feel better about the company.

2. I might be wrong here but sometimes I feel they don't produce enough re-res, it's like I only have a couple months window or so to decide before the stock is gone. And then those re-res go up in price. So it's a cycle of creating low supply, high demand, marketing nostalgia, and hype. If they can produce tons of TT02s, etc. why not re-res? And if molds wear, then perhaps they can put some of that money into developing new ones.

3. I feel it's okay to question prices and practices because companies will never think twice about what they're doing. Tamiya has many other products so I'm sure they can finance/improve some their RC products. And in the end, the consumer wins.

I didn't get the Vanquish re-re even if it meant discarding my nostalgic reasoning because I felt that was kinda like a scam lol—compared to something like a Schumacher CAT XLS. 

Very well put. If you compare the CAT XLS from a performance viewpoint the CAT wins hands down and it's well worth the money from a racers points of view. If you compare them from a manufacturing point of view, the CAT is a lot simpler to manufacture, as the design incorporates a lot fewer components, it's got that British simplicity of design rather than Japanese over engineering, so from a pure manufacturing cost the CAT probably has a much wider profit margin. You're paying for quality of design (which is intangible) rather than quantity of parts.

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It is an interesting topic for sure, and one that could always run on.

That said, i don't think its the business of the OP to be "schooling" what others see as a fair price or not. Tamiya are very skilled in tugging at those nostalgic heart strings, and i will add IMO they also play on that to the fullest with some rere prices, not all, but some.

Lee

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I'm down here in Australia.

You should look at the prices from my end and the delivery costs, especially with what passes for a currency in my country.

Having said that, I've pretty much got all the Tamiya buggies I wanted and at decent-ish prices, a while back though. That time was not now.

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1 hour ago, ralphee said:

It is an interesting topic for sure, and one that could always run on.

That said, i don't think its the business of the OP to be "schooling" what others see as a fair price or not. Tamiya are very skilled in tugging at those nostalgic heart strings, and i will add IMO they also play on that to the fullest with some rere prices, not all, but some.

Lee

Everyone has the right to make a point or a statement. Whether we agree or not is irrelevant to the OP.  We in the west haven’t fully lost our freedom of speech - yet! 

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Y'know, we probably wouldn't be complaining about rerelease prices if they were made using modern plastics, came with bearing sets and quality hardware, and had a few improvements over '80s spec. 

Imagine how much better a car like the Top Force would be if it was as durable as a modern race car, or even one from 20 years ago, or how great the Super Astute would be with modern plastics. They wouldn't even have to use trick carbon reinforced plastics, just the plain nylon they used back in '87 on the Thundershot, for example.

Collectors would be happy because the new stuff would be easily differentiated from the OG stuff, vintage racers would be happy because their race cars could complete a full race day with no parts consumption, general consumers would be happy because their Tamiyas would be as cool as they remembered, Tamiya would sell more because their reputation would improve amongst non-fanatics, and I'd be happy because it would be easier to justify dragging home another Tamiya kit.

The only people who'd be unhappy would be our significant others because we'd all probably buy more kits.

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