GTodd 1350 Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/8/2020 at 6:54 AM, ralphee said: .. i don't think its the business of the OP to be "schooling" ..... Than don't read the post. It's not schooling, it's explaining now life works. Same reason you can't go buy a new Ferrari or Porsche for 20k no matter how much you complain it's too much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avante2001R 305 Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/8/2020 at 4:29 PM, Big Jon said: Y'know, we probably wouldn't be complaining about rerelease prices if they were made using modern plastics, came with bearing sets and quality hardware, and had a few improvements over '80s spec. Imagine how much better a car like the Top Force would be if it was as durable as a modern race car, or even one from 20 years ago, or how great the Super Astute would be with modern plastics. They wouldn't even have to use trick carbon reinforced plastics, just the plain nylon they used back in '87 on the Thundershot, for example. Collectors would be happy because the new stuff would be easily differentiated from the OG stuff, vintage racers would be happy because their race cars could complete a full race day with no parts consumption, general consumers would be happy because their Tamiyas would be as cool as they remembered, Tamiya would sell more because their reputation would improve amongst non-fanatics, and I'd be happy because it would be easier to justify dragging home another Tamiya kit. The only people who'd be unhappy would be our significant others because we'd all probably buy more kits. I agree Tamiya just uses crap plastics, you know why? People still fall over themselves and buy in multiples. So what incentive does it give them to step up their quality? Absolutely zero! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphee 293 Posted December 13, 2020 On 12/10/2020 at 5:02 PM, GTodd said: Than don't read the post. It's not schooling, it's explaining now life works. Same reason you can't go buy a new Ferrari or Porsche for 20k no matter how much you complain it's too much. You wanted to voice an opinion, i responded to said opinion. You dont pay for folks RC buys here so its up to the individual to decide. Its massively overpriced, as have been a few recent releases, Tamiya are really coining in and taking a liberty or two. If you dont like that opinion, dont read it. Bests......Lee 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphee 293 Posted December 13, 2020 On 12/10/2020 at 5:15 PM, Avante2001R said: I agree Tamiya just uses crap plastics, you know why? People still fall over themselves and buy in multiples. So what incentive does it give them to step up their quality? Absolutely zero! I do agree. The recent Super Astute build surprised me. Still made of that very brittle glassy plastic, kinda turned me off when i built mine. There are a lot of chassis where i think Tamiya need to start looking at a better plastic with some more durability. Lee 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avante2001R 305 Posted December 13, 2020 18 minutes ago, ralphee said: I do agree. The recent Super Astute build surprised me. Still made of that very brittle glassy plastic, kinda turned me off when i built mine. There are a lot of chassis where i think Tamiya need to start looking at a better plastic with some more durability. Lee I dont think anything will change as long as people are blindly buying rere after rere by the dozens, let’s face it we all buy these cars for nostalgic reasons, when you strip back the memories of the childhood they really aren’t anything special. If they want to continue charging a premium at least they should switch and make cars from more durable modern plastics, people need to complain to their local importers make a stand with their wallets. My Cat XLS is made of better plastics... and was cheaper than the price of a VQS, matter of fact last week I saw modelsport selling the Cat XLS with pro transmission cheaper than the VQS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MadInventor 3884 Posted December 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Avante2001R said: My Cat XLS is made of better plastics... and was cheaper than the price of a VQS, matter of fact last week I saw modelsport selling the Cat XLS with pro transmission cheaper than the VQS. The CAT XLS is just better in every way full stop (Apart from ease of assembling drive shafts) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avante2001R 305 Posted December 13, 2020 1 hour ago, MadInventor said: The CAT XLS is just better in every way full stop (Apart from ease of assembling drive shafts) Absolutely and sadly it’s now been discontinued. The VQS just isn’t worth the money. Even at £200 I wouldn’t buy one. It’s true pricing should be around £160 maximum. You can get cheap Chinese RC cars from Ali express with more durable plastics. £54.36 47% Off | WLtoys 144001 2.4G Racing Remote Control Car Competition 60 km/h Metal Chassis 4wd Electric RC Formula Car for Christmas Gift https://a.aliexpress.com/_BOO5V5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krustybus 214 Posted December 14, 2020 Does anyone know what blend of material Tamiya use for their injection mouldings? Keep seeing the comment 'Tamiya needs to use better plastics' so just interested to know a little more about what that actually means. Injection moulding is a very complicated business indeed. I've worked for the last 15 years in a design role working on vehicle interiors that use injection moulded plastic parts. Material selection is very tricky indeed as you're trying to balance costs & mould process time as well as all the design requirements. I'd be really interested in Tamiya's processes for material selection & design but for obvious reasons us Jo public will never know! Comparing the materials/processes between the Chinese makers & Tamiya would be very interesting indeed! I've had some experience with Chinese injection moulders and what they can do for the money is very, very impressive Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taffer 948 Posted December 14, 2020 Their standard 'ABS' plastic holds up ok, if you stick to the parameters of the kit there should be no issues..... Increasing speed and running in the street is a recipe for breakages (even Tamiya says don't run in the street!) Doing a bit of research you will find what can break easily and buy some spares.... For the rere's I think it's an acceptable situation, it's when, for example, you find out the dt-03 isn't as strong as the dt-02 that you wish it had better plastics. (I didn't have a lot of luck with dt-03 so sold them). Sprues have indentifiers on them about what plastic etc but it's probably for tamiya's only internal use.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Attaboy 141 Posted December 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Krustybus said: Does anyone know what blend of material Tamiya use for their injection mouldings? AFAIK they are using a wide range of different materials. The chassis on my WT-01 was made out of polycarbonate (I broke it twice). For the arms they've used a more flexible material. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krustybus 214 Posted December 14, 2020 Yes, I realise they use different materials (ABS, Nylon 6 etc.) so should have perhaps made that clear. There's no such thing as a 'standard' ABS though. Like anything there are lots of different suppliers who have lots of different blends/modifiers. By law you have to mark plastic parts with the material code but it won't tell you the exact material only the type as it's part of legislation for disposal amongst other things. For example it's tell you its ABS but it won't tell you who made it. Anyway, without getting all material science-y the VQS does seem pretty expensive! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rb4276 803 Posted December 14, 2020 1 hour ago, taffer said: Their standard 'ABS' plastic holds up ok, if you stick to the parameters of the kit there should be no issues..... Increasing speed and running in the street is a recipe for breakages (even Tamiya says don't run in the street!) Doing a bit of research you will find what can break easily and buy some spares.... For the rere's I think it's an acceptable situation, it's when, for example, you find out the dt-03 isn't as strong as the dt-02 that you wish it had better plastics. (I didn't have a lot of luck with dt-03 so sold them). Sprues have indentifiers on them about what plastic etc but it's probably for tamiya's only internal use.... So true with the dt03, i sold my dt03t cause the rear gearcase would break at the slightest issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krustybus 214 Posted December 18, 2020 Had an interesting conversation with one of our plastic moulding suppliers the other day. Seems the commodity price of ABS is set to double so I'm sure we'll see further price increases on new kits. Something to do with oil production being reduced to keep the prices high as the demand for fuels has reduced dramatically due to Covid. Nothing like more doom & gloom huh but I guess this kind of thing happens all the time with commodity prices fluctuating (seen the same thing with steel quite regularly over the years) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xray mark 213 Posted December 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Krustybus said: Had an interesting conversation with one of our plastic moulding suppliers the other day. Seems the commodity price of ABS is set to double so I'm sure we'll see further price increases on new kits. Something to do with oil production being reduced to keep the prices high as the demand for fuels has reduced dramatically due to Covid. Nothing like more doom & gloom huh but I guess this kind of thing happens all the time with commodity prices fluctuating (seen the same thing with steel quite regularly over the years) Yes but the self entitled customers do not bear things like this in mind. Have you seen the video doing the rounds of the vqs kit processing plant?. Just one glimpse at all that high tech machinery and workers that have to be paid and you get a glimpse of the Money that must go into producing these kits. I have not been on this forum since someone proclaimed they could produce a Tamiya kit like the vqs from scratch for £160. I can’t deal with that sort of stupidity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krustybus 214 Posted December 18, 2020 Injection moulding is a massive investment but because of the amount of parts you can manufacture means that the actual cost per part is very low. You obviously need the volume to make it pay though. Those machines will be running non stop and with all sorts of tools. The tooling is where the money is once you've got the presses. There's a badword of a lot of time/effort that goes into the design of these things that just gets lost. Didn't see that particular statement...if they had the moulding expertise and a few million quid to invest in tooling and machinery then maybe they could Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mrowka 496 Posted December 19, 2020 23 hours ago, Krustybus said: Had an interesting conversation with one of our plastic moulding suppliers the other day. Seems the commodity price of ABS is set to double so I'm sure we'll see further price increases on new kits. Something to do with oil production being reduced to keep the prices high as the demand for fuels has reduced dramatically due to Covid. Nothing like more doom & gloom huh but I guess this kind of thing happens all the time with commodity prices fluctuating (seen the same thing with steel quite regularly over the years) Question: approximately how much of the cost of making a kit is materials cost,. specifically ABS plastic? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MadInventor 3884 Posted December 19, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 3:33 PM, Krustybus said: Had an interesting conversation with one of our plastic moulding suppliers the other day. Seems the commodity price of ABS is set to double so I'm sure we'll see further price increases on new kits. Something to do with oil production being reduced to keep the prices high as the demand for fuels has reduced dramatically due to Covid. Nothing like more doom & gloom huh but I guess this kind of thing happens all the time with commodity prices fluctuating (seen the same thing with steel quite regularly over the years) So when ABS becomes more expensive than aluminium, kit manufacturers will start putting in less ABS and more 'factory fitted hop ups' made in aluminium, it will cost them less to produce and they can justify charging more for them. I'm not cynical, that's just what I would do Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mrowka 496 Posted December 19, 2020 2 hours ago, MadInventor said: So when ABS becomes more expensive than aluminium, kit manufacturers will start putting in less ABS and more 'factory fitted hop ups' made in aluminium, it will cost them less to produce and they can justify charging more for them. I'm not cynical, that's just what I would do I suspect without hard evidence that the design and tooling costs far outweigh material costs in producing a kit. In other words, aluminum would have to really become cheap relative to ABS to justify designing a replacement aluminum part and then the tooling to make that part worthwhile in financial terms. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krustybus 214 Posted December 19, 2020 8 hours ago, Mrowka said: Question: approximately how much of the cost of making a kit is materials cost,. specifically ABS plastic? Well if the price has gone from around 300USD up to 750USD then the actual material cost increase per part is probably pretty low but with the volume of parts they must be producing a tiny increase per part can soon add up. I'm sure there's fluctuations like this all the time and the increases get swallowed up. Just thought it was interesting. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mrowka 496 Posted December 20, 2020 19 hours ago, Krustybus said: Well if the price has gone from around 300USD up to 750USD then the actual material cost increase per part is probably pretty low but with the volume of parts they must be producing a tiny increase per part can soon add up. I'm sure there's fluctuations like this all the time and the increases get swallowed up. Just thought it was interesting. If I understand correctly, that line of analysis appears to assume that price increases are proportional to cost increases. I'd see it as follows: if the cost of ABS is $5.00, in a kit that retails for $300, even if the price of ABS triples, that shouldn't make the price of the kit go up that much for the manufacturer to realize the same profit per item (assuming they can sell all they make). Of course, I am again assuming that ABS really is that cheap, relative to everything else. Definitely an interesting topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites