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cobalt

DT01 handling question

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Hello

I have a frog and very satisfied with its handling and a Hornet.

I like the Hornet but i dont like to drive it its just bounces way too much.

My question to people that own a DT01..is the handling as good as a Frog?

If it handles like a frog then i would be very satisfied.(i really like the look of solid axle buggies)

Anyway thank you in advance for your feedback!^_^

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First... WELCOME! ✌😊

The DT01 handles considerably better than the Frog, Hornet, or many of the other "starter Buggies". It's not sophisticated by any stretch.... 

But in general, the DT01/02 are fantastic basic Buggies!! One caveat - they NEED Oil Shocks and of course BEARINGS.

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5 hours ago, cobalt said:

I like the Hornet but i dont like to drive it its just bounces way too much

Front or rear?  

As you know, the Grasshopper came before the Hornet. The front suspension of the Grasshopper was basically 2 pogo sticks.  Tamiya added a friction damper.  But they used the same spring.  That made the front very stiff.  

D1 part takes up about 6-7mms?  I cut one loop off of the spring, that made the spring about 4-5mm shorter.  With that, the front actually absorbs the shocks instead of repelling.  

ecD49aD.jpg

The rear has rudimentary oil shocks, but I found them less effective than the undampened Grasshopper springs. 

There are 2 reasons why the Hornet's rear suspension does not work well.  1] the weight isn't on the springs. The motor is mounted on the axle itself. So the chassis have less weight pressing down on the springs.  2] The slanted angle of the rear springs create friction. Adding oil shocks makes it worse.  The result is the rear axle bouncing on the tires, instead of springs. 

But how is the undampened Grasshopper springs better?  They have the screw heads (BC4) scraping up and down inside of the fake shock bodies(A7).  That friction provides just about enough damping. Maybe you can take oil out of the rear shocks, to see if that helps?  And you might do 3rd shock mod also?  So, if you are willing to do some modding, you can make the Hornet much less bouncy.  

As for DT01, the front should work better than the Hornet.  The rear is similar to the hornet, so I don't know if I'd be eager to get oil shocks for the rear...but I never had DT01.  Hopefully what you could do to the Hornet could be applicable to DT01.   

ROma5VJ.jpg

 

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5 hours ago, Carmine A said:

First... WELCOME! ✌😊

The DT01 handles considerably better than the Frog, Hornet, or many of the other "starter Buggies". It's not sophisticated by any stretch.... 

But in general, the DT01/02 are fantastic basic Buggies!! One caveat - they NEED Oil Shocks and of course BEARINGS.

Oh yes uhmm hello , sorry about that forgot that its been quite awhile since my last last :) my apologies!

Carmine:

Do you own a DT01 and a frog? thanks again for your feedback!

Juggular:

Its mostly the rear of the Hornet that bugs me, i see now  how it locks out under acceleration.

Just wondering if the DT01 has the same degree of lock-out!

By the ways thanks alot for your detailed reply some very interesting points you brought to my attention!

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@cobaltI don't have a Frog in my fleet, but I can confirm that the DT-01 out-handles the Hornet by a considerable margin. Here's a little video I made showing a few reasons why:

 

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@cobalt Yes, I've owned both. A couple of Both. The Frog - the entire ORV Chassis Line - is for the Love and nostalgia of owning. There's really nothing Performance oriented about any of them. They were even outclassed back in 1984 when they came out.

The DT-01/02 (same basic Chassis), although also not a Performance based Chassis, IS a better setup for more controlled running.

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4 hours ago, Carmine A said:

@cobalt Yes, I've owned both. A couple of Both. The Frog - the entire ORV Chassis Line - is for the Love and nostalgia of owning. There's really nothing Performance oriented about any of them. They were even outclassed back in 1984 when they came out.

The DT-01/02 (same basic Chassis), although also not a Performance based Chassis, IS a better setup for more controlled running.

Hey Carmine

You compared the DT01 vs the frog right?(DT02 being far superior to both)

If the DT01 is as good or even better then the Frog then that is enough for me..(superior handling to Frog with rear rigid axle is the perfect buggy for me  :) )

 

Thanks again!

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13 minutes ago, cobalt said:

Hey Carmine

You compared the DT01 vs the frog right?(DT02 being far superior to both)

If the DT01 is as good or even better then the Frog then that is enough for me..(superior handling to Frog with rear rigid axle is the perfect buggy for me  :) )

Thanks again!

The DT-01 is possibly the best solid Rear Axle Buggy you can get! If I could afford it, I'd get one.

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Well with the Falcon re-release looming on the horizon, i was wondering if a DT01(memorial buggy with oil shock) handling is as good as a Falcon's.

I really like the look of both buggies, but if the Falcon is a much better handling buggy then i will wait for its release.

But i really like the durability of the DT01...kind of torn between the two.

If both are equal (handling wise) then i would go with the DT01 thats what i am trying to say! ^_^

Any input from people that have driven both?

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For me the dt-01 feels very similar to the grasshopper but a little more stable against 'rolling', the falcon feels different again, more stable.

I have had both for many years, I would only personally buy a falcon rere rather than a dt-01 every time.

(I'd rather buy gh1/2 over a dt-01 every time also)

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I don't own a Falcon, however I have driven one, and I found it not all that dissimilar to a DT-02. However as it was not mine, and I know how fragile they are, I did not drive it particularly hard or for very long, and was quite relieved to hand the controls back to its owner.

I do however own two DT-01s, one with oil shocks, one with stock pogo sticks. The handling of the one with oil shocks is is considerably better than the one with pogo sticks, to the point that it can rival a DT-02 (and thus presumably a Falcon) under the right conditions. The pogo stick equipped one however is only marginally better than a Grasshopper, bouncy and erratic.

Since the DT-01 re-release comes with oil shocks, and is significantly more rugged than the Falcon, and in my opinion is better looking, and will undoubtedly be easier to find parts for further down the line as it is basically a Mad Bull with small wheels and a different shell, this would be my choice out of the two. 

 

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Very opposing experiences,intersting! :)

Hope others will shime in! :)

 

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I find DT-01 nicer to drive because it's more stable and less prone to tipping over but it still has the same fundamental flaw in that the motor/gearbox/axle combo is mounted to the chassis in such a crude manner that as soon as you hit the throttle, the entire axle wants to rotate the opposite direction to the wheels and this pulls the suspension open and keeps it that way as long as you're on the throttle.

Take a Grasshopper or Hornet or DT-01 and put it against your foot and press the rear end down. Now apply some throttle and try again and you will find that it takes vastly more effort to push the rear down. These vehicles actually rise up when you hit the throttle rather than squat down. The amount of weight needed to counteract this phenomenon is far greater than the weight of the body shell hanging over the axle (it doesn't help that most of the rear weight is unsprung) it doesn't really matter what dampers or springs you put on the back, it will only effect the suspension when you aren't using throttle. To totally remove it, you need to convert to 4 link or some other system where the rotating force is absorbed by the linkage before it has a chance to pull the dampers open. It's more obvious on the Hornet/Lunchbox/Rising fighter etc because the gearbox slaps up in the pivots but the same thing happens on the Grasshopper too.

DT01 seems to be able to maintain a little articulation on part throttle because they deliberately relocated the battery as far back as possible to increase leverage and the lay down shocks seem to be a little less vulnerable but it will still lock up at the back if you hammer it. The DT-01 is wider though and definitely seems to be more stable in my experience. I find the grasshopper and Hornet to be quite frustrating to drive with anything more than a 27T silver can not because of the bouncy rear end but because they are very prone to grip rolling. The DT-01 seems much more resilient to this.

The Falcon is a league above both imo. It has double wishbone front suspension and rear trailing arms which happily work to full potential regardless of how much throttle is being applied.

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These technical discussions are all well and good but we're missing one key point: however bad they may handle, Madbulls look awesome doing it.

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11 hours ago, isomer1 said:

These technical discussions are all well and good but we're missing one key point: however bad they may handle, Madbulls look awesome doing it.

It's chaos but it's quite resistant to rolling which is a perfect combo

 

 

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"however bad they may handle, Madbulls look awesome doing it." 😁  So true, SO True!! 

This has taken some interesting turns! Basically, from a pure Performance standpoint.... NO Tamiya Solid Axle Buggy is GOOD! 😳  At the end of the day, my RC10 B6 will WIPE THE FLOOR with any of my Tamiya Cars!!! 

But if I want fun, durable and easy to fix - I'll take the Solid Axle Tamiya Buggy!! ✌ FTW

In fact, my next two purchases will be a Grasshopper II AND a DT-01! Thing is - they will be FAR from stock. For starters, BOTH are getting AmPro Engineering Front Double Wishbone Kits.  Plus a few bits from @ThunderDragonCy Shapeways Store!! He's designed some crazy cool Front AND Rear Suspension Components that blows my mind!  STILL, neither would win me an IMFAR Championship.... But I'm betting that they'll put a big smile on my face!! 😁

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10 minutes ago, nowinaminute said:

It's chaos but it's quite resistant to rolling which is a perfect combo

 

 

You can't IMAGINE how much that makes me want to get a Mad Bull TOO!!! 😊 

....... If I can find one ANYWHERE in the Northern Hemisphere, for less than TWICE the original price!! 😖😠😲😳

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2 hours ago, Carmine A said:

....... If I can find one ANYWHERE in the Northern Hemisphere, for less than TWICE the original price!! 😖😠😲😳

I preordered two of the fighter buggies rx memorials from Tower in the US with the intent of converting the over to Madbulls.

Madbull shells are also sold out most places, but the shops I wrote to are expecting supply in April. Though the original fighter buggy shell that @nowinaminute runs looks great too.

I have to think with all the other re-releases (especially the fighter buggy) that a special edition madbull is on the way in the next few years.

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Those Fighter Buggy RX memorial editions are mighty fine looking models IMO. If I didn't already have two DT-01s, I would be adding it to my basket in no time.

As it is though, I am waiting for the GHII Black Edition. I have the Grasshopper represented, as well as the DT-01 which is basically a Grasshopper III in terms of layout, and the Rising Fighter which is kinda like a Grasshopper 2.5 with a DT-01 gearbox fitted to a GHII chassis, but my fleet lacks a proper GHII.

 

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@nowinaminute that looks like it has the 3D printed arms from your post in 2019. Any thoughts on them since then? I can't tell if the AmPro mods are compatible with the Madbull/Fighter Buggy.

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18 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

Therein lies the issue I believe. Due to its motor pod design giving it a large amount of unsprung mass, you need the suspension to be set up quite soft in order to get any sort of decent handling. I use 3 hole pistons and soft yellow oil at the back and front on mine along with the stock springs and that seems to do the trick nicely.

 

I've put the quote in here because i fits the topic better.

The removing of the Clips helped a lot.

I use DT02 CVAs with 3 hole Pistons and yellow oil.

I must have put harder Springs (the originals from the Pogosticks) on them,  because it is still on the stiff Side.

I remember that the original Springs were super soft.....

 

 

 

PS:

It seems that Mad Bulls are all over the TC. What is that Phenomena all about?

The Mad Bull for my Daughter was built because i got an fighter Buggy for Christmas.

20210320_150517.thumb.jpg.abe1d32e70c898d31470fd47a6625845.jpg

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On 3/23/2021 at 9:58 PM, isomer1 said:

@nowinaminute that looks like it has the 3D printed arms from your post in 2019. Any thoughts on them since then? I can't tell if the AmPro mods are compatible with the Madbull/Fighter Buggy.

Yes it was in that video. They worked fairly well but broke eventually. Mainly due to a weak part in the design IMO.

Will elaborate a bit more when I get home. 

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The dt01’s are a fun basic buggy.. in the form of the Madbull they are easily one of Tamiya’s best bashers. 

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7 hours ago, nowinaminute said:

Yes it was in that video. They worked fairly well but broke eventually. Mainly due to a weak part in the design IMO.

Will elaborate a bit more when I get home. 

Right then.

It worked pretty well in some ways, it seemed to make the front end more poised and the massive reduction in camber change was noticeable but there were some downsides too.

The biggest issue is that actual design as an obvious weak spot where the material is very thin which is exactly where it snapped. To be fair though I was being pretty harsh on it at the time. The design could do with being bulked up in that area. Another downside is that the suspension articulation is reduced compared to the stock setup. Its also harder to do the steering mod because there's less clearance for a ball joint.

It's fun to try out but I wouldn't say its essential. The stock system has crazy camber issues but it's still fundamentally good at responding to the terrain so is perfectly good for bashing around.

I think the basic design could be improved on. Fix the weak spot, make the arms solid so they don't twist and flex and improve articulation. 

Probably the best double wishbone style upgrade I've seen until now though remains this one:
 

The only thing I'm not sure about is how much articulation you get using this mod and a Mad Bull.

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