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Saito2

Stigma

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Its interesting some RC brands carry a stigma with their name. Traxxas is a big one. In RC circles, it isn't a good one. Some of their product line is old, but well built and tough, whether one likes their appearance or not. Much of it seems to be how Traxxas conducts itself as a company, the way they market themselves and the types of customers they attract. On the other hand, they have supposedly great customer support (I've never personally dealt with them) and spares are always on hand so it would appear they want the customer to have a favorable experience. Their recent efforts with the TRX4 and actual kit availability again are positive.

Tamiya's rep began to slide as the 80's wore on and they drifted out of competition circles. They seemed to be regarded as plastic toys by the racer crowd over time (well before TRF) but still well liked by the casual runner who made up the bulk of the sales numbers anyway. Associated, Losi, etc. may have made the podium, but Tamiya laughed all the way to the bank with their sales numbers I'd bet.

Any other perceptions on the brands mentioned or other brands? I find it interesting when a brand has a kind of personality formed around it.

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Thunder Tiger always carried a bit of a low end badge, even though they make parts for a lot of other companies. They own Associated now? I guess the reputation is holding strong, the associated kits now are a bit hit/miss. 

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Traxxas to me for the most part are beginners vehicles: My first hobby-grade R/C was a Slash and Traxxas does an excellent job of marketing their products to a huge audience. I also like how they have been branching out as of late with kits and excellent body options. I don't like that they are aggressive with their patents, although I don't think it is trolling and some of their actions were warranted. I see Kyosho as Tamiya but with a higher-quality, and more modern product. The only other company that I have a negative stigma of is Arrma, while they make some killer products, the people that seem to own them think that Arrma is some sort of deity and if you aren't running 6s batteries, jumping over apartment complexes, and breaking your car into 100 pieces at the end of the day, you are doing it all wrong (I also group some Tekno and Traxxas fans in this group).      

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I agree that Traxxas are at base decent vehicles.

But they seem to be marketed by bros for bros. ARRMA is similar, perhaps a bit more high end and even more the province of bro-dom.

When I was a kid, Traxxas was seen as more toy-grade than hobby grade. I also Iremember being suspicious of Kyosho, probably because Tower Hobbies (big U.S. mail order hobby retailer) hyped them so relentlessly. 

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I remember Marui being regarded as a slightly cheaper, slightly junkier alternative to Tamiya, which was not entirely undeserved...

Kyosho was stigmatized by our local hobby shop, but I think I heard that the owner had a business beef with Great Planes, so he talked smack about Kyosho and wouldn't stock them. Ironically, this made all the cool-looking Kyosho cars in the Tower Hobbies ads even more appealing to me.

Traxxas is a brilliant engineering company with what could have been a great racing pedigree. In the late '80s/early '90s, their slogan was "The Team To Watch," and it was true. The Cat and the Fiero were toys, but once they got into the Bullet/Hawk/Racidator era, you could tell they were serious. The Rustler/Stampede/Bandit/Slash architecture they still use today is an evolution of their racing trucks of the early '90s, and it's still a fantastic design, arguably one of the most successful 2WD off-road platforms of all time. And I've considered, and still may do, selling all my miscellaneous bits of crawler/scaler parts, buying the kit version of the TRX-4, and calling it a day.

But their marketing! By going fully RTR in the late '90s and then doubling down on the horsepower wars, they gained a huge following with kids who just wanted to jump a monster truck over stuff in the yard, but they all but abandoned "serious" hobbyists (myself included).  And then they got insular: proprietary connectors, everything-in-one-box solutions, silly trademark names for every feature of a model, warnings about not using aftermarket parts. They became a bit like the Apple of the RC world; you were supposed to operate entirely inside their ecosystem, and not want or need anything else.

But the irony is that their vehicles, by design, are great platforms for modification, and the parts are well-made and easily available. I haven't bought a Traxxas vehicle in 20 years, but I've bought a LOT of Traxxas parts to use in other ways in that time. And whole cottage industries have sprung up around the Maxx trucks and the Rustler/Stampede/Slash. They finally, slowly, seem to be catching on, and realizing that people do all sorts of crazy things to their products that they never intended, and they've started marketing vehicles as a starting point for customization instead of just a complete finished product. And I hope that trend continues.

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@Saito2 You should really write a book called: "The philosophy of RC". I am always amazed about what you are questioning and idears and so on. Its a pleasure to read. :)

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I recently bought Traxxas TRX-6, my first non Tamiya RC vehicle over 20 years. I had Kyosho before that. Never would I have thought I’m buying a Traxxas as back in the days we all joked about how crappy they are. One of my friend even demonstrated by stomping his truck body only once and the lexan body was in pieces. Even when the Trx4 came out, I thought it was cool and Tamiya should have made it. I haven’t thought much about it.
Now with trx6 I just can’t believe how great they are and the smart engineering. Tons of factory options (expensive!) as it shares the same Trx4 chassis. Even more hopup/scale parts from various aftermarket companies. Some cool parts are only available in Asia. Feels like the Kyosho SuperTen GP craze back in the day, millions of high quality And wild aftermarket parts. With the Trx6 I already got carried away got tons of scale parts and hop up parts that I could easily buy 4 more Trx6 rtr’s for the amount I spend. I’m thinking I want another trx6 truck just for runner. 
 I was wondering why there are only 2-3 Trx6’s in the TC show room. 
sadly I came across some post about how Traxxas going after unrelated companies just because they had similar sounding name as their rc vehicles especially the word. “Max” very upsetting companies get greedy Like that, unlike Tamiya , which I have the pleasure meeting Mr Tamiya at a hobby show ages ago. After speaking to him seems bringing joy to children is his priority. 
world has changed, rc cars are getting more complex. Many things can be produced cheaply such as Bruiser clone comes to mind.

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In the late 90's, early 2000's, I  used to think Traxxas was a joke.  Then my friend bought a T-Maxx.  Although I didn't like the looks of the truck much since it wasn't "scale" enough for me, I was very impressed by its design, performance and durability.  I mean, it was a nitro with reverse!!!

I think the T-Maxx and Traxxas in general, allowed people who were intimidated or just too lazy to build their own kits to get into RC at a relatively low price point.  They even included batteries and chargers.  Of course when they broke something, it was difficult for them to fix it since they usually lacked the knowledge of someone who had built their own kit.  Nevertheless, even though I love building kits, I believe Traxxas led the way into the RTR market that has not stopped.

There is also no doubt, at least in the U.S. that the Bandit/Rustler/Stampede/Slash line are the most popular kits and although, I still don't find them aesthetically pleasing, they are durable, great for bashing and great entry level kits.  Also if you notice, Traxxas on its boxes and ads answers the dreaded question we all get when running our cars, "How fast does it go?".  Although it often results in people buying kits they can't handle, it is very good marketing.

The recent TRX4s and the UDRs are a different story in my opinion.   They are engineering achievements that most companies, including Tamiya have not matched.  The TRX4's shift-on-the-fly ability, including the locking of the diffs is amazing.  I know the Tamiya 3- Speeds came out almost 40 years earlier, but I have a Mounty and a TRX4 and there is simply no comparison.  Tamiya, for it sown reasons did not improve on that design much.  I also think the TRX4 bodies like the Bronco and Blazer, especially with the trim pieces and available lighting options show a foray by Traxxas into a more scale look.

The UDR, is also impressive. It has a great look and is at the same time thrilling and scary to drive on 6S power.

I definitely don't think the Traxxas name carries the same stigma as it once did and although the majority of my vehicles are Tamiya,, I do appreciate the Traxxas offerings.

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You could say it's not stigma so much as a deserved reputation for some brands.

I'm quite interested in getting a TRX4 but after reading about how they conduct business I'm not sure I want to support them.  Withholding my pennies from Traxxas might not make a difference, but I look at the Element crawler brand from Associated and see how they're happy to work with others and how it doesn't seem to be just about money to them.  I'd much rather give them another sale and their kits are just as good for my needs.

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I always found the Associated story to be a fascinating one. Of course if you look at it from the Losi standpoint, AE was like the evil empire. Quite a nice little rivalry that seemed to all start over not getting a specific allotment of (then new) RC10s in trade for design help that Gil Los JR provided to AE. Team Losi and the JR-X2 were birthed from that disagreement. Always interesting when one company creates its biggest rival. 

12 minutes ago, Blista said:

but I look at the Element crawler brand from Associated and see how they're happy to work with others and how it doesn't seem to be just about money to them.  I'd much rather give them another sale and their kits are just as good for my needs.

I listened to Cliff Lett on several podcast (one about Element) and the passion is still there with AE. They've got to deal with Thunder Tiger now instead of running the whole show like the old days but they've still got the drive here in the US at least.

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Traxxas carries a stigma with me... just between Traxxas and Tamiya, it has been much easier to keep the Tamiya going over the years without having to get replacement parts. The best piece of Traxxas gear I have is a 7 year old 5000mAh NiMH with the 2 "hump" cells chopped off the top, and even that isn't going at full capacity.

For me, the main failure point was the brittle white Traxxas plastic used on the early Rad/Hawk/Sledgehammer (and others I'm sure). Turnbuckle ends snapped, shock ends snapped, hub carriers and knuckles snapped, front axles would randomly fall out, bodies and body mounts were essentially useless after a single rollover, and the biggest problem: the slider shafts and stub axles would blow their U-joints if you looked at them wrong. Between 3 Traxxas trucks--a Sledge and 2 Hawks--I only have one cobbled together set of driveshafts and turnbuckles left to make one running truck. The old XL-1 speed control also completely melted down on one of the first runs (truly melted--it nearly caught fire!)

I'm sure those trucks were great when they were new, and the newer Traxxas models are probably fine, but I just gave up trying after awhile and focused on Tamiya since the cars just kept going (3 ORVs still on their original hex shafts!). Nowadays, knowing how Traxxas conducts its business practices makes me feel a bit justified in the decision to bin them. However, my new ESC is a Traxxas and I'm not sure how I feel about it, but at least it works (for now).

Kyosho always seemed like it was in a "higher class" than Traxxas or Tamiya since it was so prominent (in the front, in full color!) in the Tower Hobbies catalogs, and it helped that their cars looked great (and apparently drove great as well). Their LeMans motors looked like little jewels, and their models covered everything from road cars to monster trucks.

As for "real" race cars, Associated and later Losi were always the big two in my mind. Schumacher was said to be quite fiddly by the few magazines I had, and everything else seemed to be 3rd tier due to the smaller amount of models they carried and their ad/catalog placement (Marui, Panda, Futaba, etc.)

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Stigmas in RC are a bit of a thing..  while I read about other's opinions of Traxxas, I've had my own experience to go by.

A neighborhood friend had a Traxxas Cat.  He loved it, and it seemed like an upgraded Motor On Axle offering with the yellow shocks that had unique twist-N-click spring adjusters.  A distant neighbor had a Traxxas Fiero (advertised with 30+ mph on the box) and was the fastest RC I had seen up until that time.  The local hobby shops carried all the popular Tamiya and Kyosho offerings of the 80's so they got much more attention, but Traxxas seemed to be a good sturdy offering up until the 90's came.

I bought a first generation E-Maxx in 2001.  Was very impressed with the engineering and character of the car.  Twin battery packs on a Clod-sized vehicle that was as nimble as a stadium truck if not as fast.  To me at least, it was a game changer and probably the first true basher one could take anywhere and create some fun.

A few years later I bought a Revo and converted it to electric (E-revo wasn't out yet), decked it out with a carbon vantage chassis, RPM suspension arms,  and dropped in an Align 600XL helicopter motor with an experimental ESC that would run 6s but without brakes.  I retained the braking servo for stopping duties. Will post a pic of it later when I have a chance to dig through my old files.. was a very lovely thing.

 

Point being, the stigma of Traxxas the company or a typical Traxxas owner never effected me at all.   I was never into the Slash or Bandit or Rustler or even the Sledgehammer from back in the day.  For those kinds of entry-level things I preferred Tamiya and the nostalgic feel I got from my childhood memories.  I enjoyed certain products Traxxas offered and would probably purchase a TRX-4 if shipping to Japan wasn't so steep.  

 

 

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I can't say I was ever particularly keen on Traxxas, since to me the build is the biggest part of the fun, and I don't see why I would pay extra to have that fun taken away from me in the form of an RTR model. But I wouldn't say that they held a stigma for me until they started doing stupid things like trying to claim that they invented the wheel. Yes, they really did try to patent the wheel!

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Guessing it depends where you are in the world. 

I'd not really had Traxxas on the RC map up until maybe 10yrs ago, and didnt realise they where as big as they are, until all the legal carry on.

For me, Schumacher was/is the top brand, all the fast guys ran them. Kyosho is next inline , then you had the exotic like Xray and Team Losi and even Associated. Mardave where considered bottom of the Race cars. Tamiya and Marui where toy grade, the bashers,  you played with those in the park, on the beach etc.

Times have changed slightly, you now have companies marketing as Bashers, the likes of Arrma and Traxxas in that mix? Schumacher are still THE race brand, but Accociated are well up there now. 

 

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Interesting. I have associated Associated with racing for longer than I have been aware of RC due to their involvement in the slot car scene.

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4 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

Guessing it depends where you are in the world. 

I'd not really had Traxxas on the RC map up until maybe 10yrs ago, and didnt realise they where as big as they are, until all the legal carry on.

For me, Schumacher was/is the top brand, all the fast guys ran them. Kyosho is next inline , then you had the exotic like Xray and Team Losi and even Associated. Mardave where considered bottom of the Race cars. Tamiya and Marui where toy grade, the bashers,  you played with those in the park, on the beach etc.

Times have changed slightly, you now have companies marketing as Bashers, the likes of Arrma and Traxxas in that mix? Schumacher are still THE race brand, but Accociated are well up there now. 

 

It's the opposite here in the US. AE and TLR are easily the 2 most popular race brands here, and hardly anyone runs schumacher

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15 minutes ago, Bash said:

It's the opposite here in the US. AE and TLR are easily the 2 most popular race brands here, and hardly anyone runs schumacher

Makes sense, I would guess by the time you factor transport and import taxes then the British cars are too expensive in US? I certainly know that is true of 1:1 Land Rovers, I have a couple of friends in US with classic Land Rovers and they pay silly money for parts that we in UK can get for peanuts. 

I'm in UK so for me Schumacher makes more sense.

My kids are showing an interest in doing proper club racing*, they initially wanted Associated but the Schumacher's are cheaper here and to be honest I'd like to support the home manufacturer. Also they have since fallen in love with Schumacher after watching Trishbits YouTube channel. However, as I pointed out to my kids, Schumacher have not won an IFMAR worlds in 19 years? Maybe that is due to most competitors having cheaper access to Associated cars and parts than Schumacher means more associated are entered? Not sure, hard to believe it is because Schumacher buggies aren't competitive? It could be that Schumacher buggies are better carpet racers (damned astro seems to dominate UK racing) but IFMAR generally run proper dirt tracks?

 

* I will blame @TurnipJF for this after getting them involved in his postal racing :lol:

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Schumacher isn't horribly expensive here, but they are about $50 more than TLR and AE kits. The main issue is Schumacher doesn't have very good distribution here. Amain carries some kits and parts, and I think some smaller companies carry a bit more

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Its also of note that stigmas, for me at least, grow and evolve with time. When I first ventured into the actual hobby aspect way BITD, RC Car Action and hobby shops were my gateway. Tyco, Nikko and Radio Shack cars were instantly relegated to toy status as RCCA didn't cover them (well maybe a few times early on, Turbo Hopper, Rhino, etc.) and hobby shops didn't sell them. It everything featured in the mags or seen in hobby shops were somehow seen as better or "hobby grade" in my eyes. Toy stores did not sell Tamiya in the US usually aside from the QD range. Traxxas was in some weird middle ground with RTRs back then but evolved into hobby grade with the Bullet, Sledgehammer, etc. I had no experience with them so it wasn't until later I learned early Traxxas stuff wasn't "bulletproof" like their current RTRs. But by then my view of them had evolved once more from a promising company growing into racing with the TRX-1 to a brand catering to the "Bro-type" as previously mentioned. Talk with racers and Tamiya becomes a toyish brand but strangely seems to be the way most entered into the hobby. I guess if you got burnt on a Royal Ripper the exploded first time out, you might not continue with the hobby.

My late father said it best when I began to ask questions about "Corvette culture". There is a certain stigma, partially deserved about Corvette culture and their owners. He said, in the end, "Its just a car.". He had wanted one since high school and didn't have the opportunity to purchase his first used one (now mine) until his mid 40's, instead settling on a string of Triumphs and a Pontiac Fiero. He went to one local Corvette club meeting and decided it wasn't for him. The car doesn't make you the person. I've been a blue collar mechanic or production worker of some sort most of my life. I don't fit the Corvette stereotype and in fact, despise it. I wrestled with my love of the car vs my distain for the culture (which is tough when you professionally restore them for 7 years) . In those times, I try to remember "Its just a car.".

So while Traxxas does make it harder by actually manufacturing this culture, somewhat, around their vehicles, I try to remember, they're just RC cars and maybe I should give that TRX4 a try and not be too embarrassed by my Stampede.  

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11 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

I guess if you got burnt on a Royal Ripper the exploded first time out, you might not continue with the hobby.

I appreciate this is going very slightly off-topic, but I almost did this with my return to Tamiya in the mid-00s.

Back in the early 90s, I was completely fascinated with the Midnight Pumpkin and Lunchbox.  I used to look at the pictures on the bottom of my Pumpkin Jr kit box and dream of owning the RC versions one day.  Once I even saw a lucky kid at school playing with a Midnight Pumpkin, when everybody else had toy-grade Nikko or Radio Shack cars, and it just looked to big and capable.

Fast-forward to the re-release era, I was walking past my LHS and saw the Lunchbox in the window.  On a whim I went inside, got talking to the staff, and came out with...  A Dark Impact.

I was blown away with how good the build was and how well the car ran, especially compared to my childhood memories of split bodies, lost driveshafts, loose screws, batteries that fell out, wheels that span instead of gripped, and all kinds of other complaints which are partly justified and partly down to not understanding the car's limit.

Anyway, a month later I went back in to buy the Midnight Pumpkin.  The build was, well, dull, and the driving experience was...  Odd.  I couldn't work it out.  Mostly I couldn't work out why they didn't make it more clear on the box that it basically just does wheelies and not much else.  Because while that's fun for a few minutes, having to continually put it back on its wheels soon gets tiresome.  Suddenly all those disappointing childhood memories of fragile cars, cars that don't handle, cars that flip upside down and break the body you've spent all day painting, came flooding back to me - and I felt really silly for imagining it would have been any different.  But, the Dark Impact was a good car.  It was everything I'd wanted out of my childhood cars.  The Pumpkin was everything I'd not liked about my childhood cars.  Had I done what I originally intended, and bought a Pumpkin or a Lunchbox on my first visit to the shop, the stigma of Tamiya as a rather silly overpriced toy manufacturer would have been reinforced in me and I'd never have returned to the RC world, or, perhaps, I'd have had a dabble with Traxxas during some brief bro-mance and laughed at how rubbish Tamiya's cars were in comparison.

I wonder how many other kids went for the MP/LB during their childhoods thinking they would be getting something that could actually be thrashed around, and were disappointed?

I can definitely see how continuing to put out cars like the comicals and the LB/MP and the G6-01 don't do anything to dispel the stigma among racers that Tamiya aren't to be taken seriously, but obviously it does the company no harm as they continue to sell well, and those of us who understand their purpose absolutely love them.

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For me, some years ago when Traxxas was not a "big player" I thought they were cheap plastic RC toy`s. Very simple in design and nearly all plastic. no exotic materials or over engineering we like. But know I realise that the plastic is very forgiving and normally reflects that in spares costs and low parts count also adds.

The major reason I do not buy Traxxas is I love to build and the overengineered and bad fitting stuff suits me. I think traxxas as been the top guy for ages now.

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"Suddenly all those disappointing childhood memories of fragile cars, cars that don't handle, cars that flip upside down and break the body you've spent all day painting, came flooding back to me"

Disappointing!? For me it's the reverse, myself and most friends had tamiya's that provided all this and more, far from disappointing.... The step up from forward and reverse turn only to wired remote control, then proportional Tandy type cars to Tamiya kit buggies was amazing at the time, getting lost in those moments meant there was no desire to go anywhere else with other manufacturers!? 

I  hold onto those sorts of memories to keep the Tamiya flag flying, the main difference now is I try to not bodge parts together to keep cars going because I have more buggies, more patience and more money! 😁

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A hornet that would flip over on a small jump or just by turning at speed on tarmac was never criticised as being fixed axle, poor model, bad driving etc it was always greeted with wow look what happened! (A bill and Ted type reaction!)

There were never any negatives, just living in the moment of 10-14yr olds

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4 hours ago, mud4fun said:

Makes sense, I would guess by the time you factor transport and import taxes then the British cars are too expensive in US?

I think it has more to do with access/availability and history than the cost of importing them. Associated and Losi both originated in California, which was the epicenter of RC racing in the US in the early days. R&D and manufacturing were both local, factory specials and prototypes were tested at local tracks, and everything was easily available. Whereas with Schumacher (or Kyosho or Tamiya), all that was happening far away, and while a new design from one of them might impress, it was quick and easy for the locals to develop a competitor. (I think the American hot-rodding ethos and tradition might have played a big part in that; we've never been shy about hacking something up to make it go faster, even something brand-new. Might be an interesting topic at some point...)

Personally, I have never seen a Schumacher car in the flesh, except occasionally on the hobby shop shelves during the '90s. No one bought them, because no one knew anything about them. And because they didn't sell, the shops didn't order spares, which discouraged newcomers from trying them, because you could build an entire RC10 or JRX2 from spare parts that were right there in the shop, if you had to.

And it doesn't surprise me at all that hobbyists outside the US don't realize that Traxxas was a successful racing brand in the early '90s. They never really made the push into international racing, partly I think because they focused on the stadium truck class, which didn't exist outside the US. Another example would be Bolink, who were huge in oval racing throughout the '80s and '90s, but again, only in the US. But you could walk into any hobby shop in the US in, say, 1995, and walk out with anything you needed for any Traxxas, Bolink, Associated, or Losi car. Ask about Schumacher, and they'd give you a blank stare.

Edited to add: And I didn't even know Mardave existed until I joined TC...

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