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Saito2

Stigma

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4 hours ago, Bash said:

It's the opposite here in the US. AE and TLR are easily the 2 most popular race brands here, and hardly anyone runs schumacher

Tamiya, Marui and Kyosho sound to be the only RC brands that had the same Stigma, across the continent's?  

I started racing in around '86 with a Tamiya Frog, and was beaten by the likes of the Meteor ,until the Ultima came along, and I bought that. It was only new racers that turned up with Tamiyas.

I can see how ,home grown brands, are popular, competitive, cost and parts availability are the top desires. 

Not sure why the XT60 seems to be popular that side if the pond, and the T plug/Deans more so over here? Do Traxxas come with the XT60? 

4 hours ago, mud4fun said:

Schumacher have not won an IFMAR worlds in 19 years? Maybe that is due to most competitors having cheaper access to Associated cars and parts than Schumacher means more associated are entered?

I think it's due to the tracks being Clay or Dirt, which we dont have over here, (well in Scotland we do, and it's dominated by Schumacher, with Team Associated licking the heals ), so maybe the cars aren't designed for the surface and/or lack of surface set up experience?

4 hours ago, mud4fun said:

(damned astro seems to dominate UK racing)

In Scotland it's all grass tracks in the summer months, and although it's more "real off road " it's also a pain, both in track/car maintenance and cost/profit. In the winter, it's just not an option, so indoor and carpet is the only option.

Currently i (well, we) at Glasgow RC are trying to get funds together, to build Scotland's first Astro track,  and if all goes well, have it down for next season (🤞🤞), meaning when the heavens open (which happens a fair bit.....), we shouldn't need to cancel events.

If you want to buy/rent some land, build and maintain a grass track to BRCA or even better, Worlds, standard,  then crack on, let us know ,and we'll be up for a race weekend 👍

 

2 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Its also of note that stigmas, for me at least, grow and evolve with time.

Agreed, I still have Accociated as a brand that's difficult to obtain, but it's just as available as others these days, and they represent pretty much half of our club.

 

1 hour ago, Mad Ax said:

I wonder how many other kids went for the MP/LB during their childhoods thinking they would be getting something that could actually be thrashed around, and were disappointed?

Pretty much, even bought the light kit and an ESC ,thinking it would make it better....🙄 My LB kept falling over ..alot ,broke the body posts almost the first time out, and used the U shock mounts and bolts to support the body instead, which then just broke the chassis 🤦‍♂️ ,Not sure if this was addressed with the Re release?

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1 hour ago, taffer said:

Disappointing!? For me it's the reverse, myself and most friends had tamiya's that provided all this and more, far from disappointing....

I guess to add some balance to this, my first childhood Tamiya was a King Cab that had been royally thrashed by my cousin.  Even if I could get it to last a run before something fell off, a run was only the 3-4 minutes provided by a single ageing NiCad before a 12 hour charge.  Besides that I do remember it being quite good, although the billiard-smooth tyres provided no traction on my gravel driveway, the donuts were fun.

One year I scrimped and saved and sold it to a friend so I could afford an all-new Tamiya.  It was the Mud Blaster.  At the time I had no experience of the concept of one product being a significantly better design than another from the same manufacturer, possibly because my mother is of the economic school of The Cheap One Is The Same As The Expensive One But Cheaper.  The only concept I was aware of at that time was newer = better.  At the time, the Mud Blaster was the cheapest car in stock at the LHS (actually there was a cheaper one, possibly a Mardave Meteor, I don't recall exactly but it wasn't a Tamiya, and it didn't look nearly as good as anything with the Tamiya badge on it, so I passed it up).

So I was kinda disappointed that although my new-built Mud Blaster was indeed newer than my old King Cab, and shinier and better looking (at least before its first run), it still had just as much flop and play in the arms.  Of course the King Cab had that because it had been badly abused and everything was worn; the Mud Blaster had the wear engineered in from new.  And to be fair, I did love that truck, literally to death, but I always knew it wasn't as good as the one I'd sold.  And I'd promised myself I'd get a buggy, not a monster truck, because monster trucks turn over and get broken, but I got swayed by the cool body and the fancy boxart when maybe the Meteor would have given me more fun with less roll overs.  And let's face it, that Subaru body was way too fragile to ever go on a monster truck chassis.

Of course, crashing in the 90s wasn't just about having to put it on its wheels again (although having to walk to like, the whole other side of the driveway, dude is really taxing for a teenager, like* seriously oh my gawd that is so far!), it was potentially about having to explain another breakage to the Holder Of The Credit Card, then having to phone up that long number and wait ages to be put through to someone who was expert at failing to understand part numbers, then having to wait 6 weeks for the part to be shipped (literally) from Japan.  By which time the summer was gone and it was too wet to play with RC cars anyway.

 

*I'm not sure we were actually saying "like" in 1993.  Maybe "man" or "dude".  Definitely "wicked", but not in the context of having to walk to the whole other side of the driveway, man.

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1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

Not sure why the XT60 seems to be popular that side if the pond, and the T plug/Deans more so over here? Do Traxxas come with the XT60?

Traxxas use their own connecter. They used to be pretty popular, I'd say that they were almost as common as deans, at least in the surface side of rc. Traxxas stopped selling their connecters about 3 or so years ago, and only their own batteries and chargers have authentic connecters with the new ID technology. I think the xt60's came over from plane and drone usage, since they are the only connecters tha seem to be popular in that sector. I use a mix of XT60 and deans and Xt60's are far superior IMHO since they can handle more current, are super easy to solder and unplug, and are dirt cheap as well. 

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2 hours ago, Bash said:

I use a mix of XT60 and deans and Xt60's are far superior IMHO since they can handle more current,

Deans and XT60 are both rated to 60Amp are they not? 

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Authentic Deans are good for 60+a. An XT60 has more surface area in contact when plugged together than a deans, so they can take a bit more current. I'd feel comfortable with about 80a max on an xt60. I tend to go overkill on connecters anyway, I only use Deans and XT60 for 2s and low draw 3s setups, and Xt90's on higher draw applications.  I've personally had no problems with deans connecters, and most of the issues with people melting them are with the knockoff versions of them. 

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8 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

Had I done what I originally intended, and bought a Pumpkin or a Lunchbox on my first visit to the shop, the stigma of Tamiya as a rather silly overpriced toy manufacturer would have been reinforced in me and I'd never have returned to the RC world, or, perhaps, I'd have had a dabble with Traxxas during some brief bro-mance and laughed at how rubbish Tamiya's cars were in comparison.

Its interesting how we had different experiences with the same chassis, though much of it stems from different ages and entry points to this particular model. Nobody had anything as elite as a model RC car in my neighborhood. All of it was Tyco or Nikko stuff. I was the first the buy one with long saved money and I chose my second favorite at the time, the Lunch Box. From that young age and with what we had to measure against, the Lunch Box was huge, durable and fast! It towered over the 1/16 and 1/14 scale toy brands powered by 360 motors at best. With all the time I spent on it, I was extremely careful not to roll it. This care allowed me to become a better driver as I gently worked up to its limits. Later in life, body mounts did break but the chassis as a whole never let me down. I could pull it off the shelf and run it today. When I eventually did get to see things like a Blackfoot up close, I realized how simplistic the Lunchie was, but its durability (Blackfoot drivers had diff issues back then too) kept me from looking down on it. It was simple, but it was quality and that made me buy more Tamiyas. My childhood experiences with an Aristocraft Dolphin led to a busted knuckle on its maiden test drive and a Marui Land Cruiser with a gearbox the melted over time (still loved that Marui though).  Had I had more exposure to Kyosho or Associated hardware, my viewpoints may have greatly changed.

As an aside, while we are critical of the Traxxas hype machine Tamiya had its own way of promoting its vehicles that made them memorable and standout. Those magnificent catalogs and guidebooks were second to none combined with the intoxicating boxart. MRC, Tamiya's US importer always had glowing ad copy bragging about toughness and the strength of engineering grade ABS plastic. And wasn't every buggy in Tamiya line a "race winner" designed to "put you in the winners circle" if you listened to the promo videos? 

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15 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Its interesting how we had different experiences with the same chassis, though much of it stems from different ages and entry points to this particular model

Absolutely,  when i bought an LB (if I remember right, I wanted a Turbo Rocky, and went to the 'Woodvale Airshow' with a pocket full of paper round money, hoping for a bargain...) , I'd have been racing a year or so with the Ultima, so i think i was expecting it to corner/handle like a race buggy, which we all know, it never was going to be. Although, we did have a race for the new  Monster RC class, so did race it against the MB ,Blackfoot and even a Clod, and won!! (Mainly as I swapped the wheels/tyres off a Rough Rider, and fitted a Hornet pinion, they changed the rules the week after....🙄

 

15 hours ago, Saito2 said:

wasn't every buggy in Tamiya line a "race winner" designed to "put you in the winners circle" if you listened to the promo videos? 

The box art , going 100mph whilst stood still, coupled with the endless video loop in the Model Shops (I've stood in the rain watching those, for what seemed like hours ) had me hooked ,hook line and sinker, and still got a hold almost 40yrs later!?! 😬😁

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I think what really cemented my affinity towards Tamiya was that I had the 1985 RC catalogue of theirs at the time and I would drool over just about every one. When I did eventually purchase one as a kid, it was a Marui Galaxy though. I would have wanted the Frog at the time, but it was too much for me and this looked better than the Grasshopper or Hornet. While it wasn't the best design, as I would have to replace the chassis a few times, but I did have a lot of fun. I would go on to get a second hand hornet (now that one I had a lot of fun with!) and LB Celica Turbo and a Renault MKII Martini. The last two I never drove that much as I was too impatient with the throttle and not control them properly plus I had limited areas to run them. What I did like about them though was the detailing about them (I did like building model kits too).  I don't think I really ever saw any other brand apart from Tamiya in and Marui was short lived.

It wasn't until I came back into the hobby, looking for the cars I wanted as a kid, that I truely discovered other brands. Coming back what I did notice then was the complete change, Tamiya RC was in the minority and there were lots of other brands and cars I'd never heard of at hobby stores. With the re-re's I have noticed that reverse a bit, but still Tamiya don't dominate RC here like they did in the 80s. I probably fit squarely into the target market for the Re-Res, I want most of them, I'll drive them, but not drive too much so I don't see all the short comings as if I drove them as a kid.

While I do like the M-series cars, having a few now, (from M01s to M06s) I must admit the TT series doesn't really excite me, although I have a couple of cars now. It seems to be the go to platform for Tamiya though.

However with the recent announcement of the Ford Escort, the MF-01X has me excited enough to start getting the cars in the series (I have the Merc and just ordered the beetle  so just need the Jimny, oh and the Escort when it comes out :D , not many for sure, but best to start early I say!). For me, the casual driver, the platform looks good enough for most surfaces (any beetle video I've seen looks to run really well on dirt). Plus while I wasn't keen on the Merc body, I was really impressed with the detailing and that it came with the lighting kit (yet no bearings still, just not getting that one Tamiya). And on this platform its been interesting body choices so far, so I am hopeful Tamiya keep that up.

I guess all this rambling says I don't see a lot of stigma for me with Tamiya, but I know they have lost their edge and there is a lot more RC to discover out there. I do have my eye on some of the Kyosho re-re's, mainly a Javelin or Scorpion, but they are really pricy here down under. Schumacher and the like sound like exotic brands from far away lands, not really investigated or heard too much apart from what is said in this forum. Traxxas is the only other brand I recognise and based on not much at all, they seem like a cheap entry level car, but based on reading this thread that would not be an entirely correct opinion. I'd recently gotten one as part of an auction and was going to get rid of it, but I am now tempted to investigate it further.

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Edging off topic slightly....

Look who's on Lee Martin's YouTube channel, Gil Losi Jr, who'd have thought a Tamiya Avante would have played in the Losi development! 

 

 

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When I first got into hobby grade RC in the 80s I started with a Kyosho Turbo Optima Mid. It was technically my Dad’s car but I was his driver . And eventually got a Kyosho Hi Roller Vette which was for me to bash around the yard and race at our club’s monster truck class. 
In those days,Associated and Losi dominated 2wd buggy. Ulltimas came in and were competitive as well. A few Frogs also ran.

In 4wd buggy it was mostly My Optima mid, Schumachers, a lot of folks still running the old Rear engine Optima Gold. There were also Tamiya buggies that were competitive.  
When I started running Monster truck there were plenty of Blackfoot and monster beetle chassis and some Lunchboxes. People used clods for general running but they were a little too heavy and bulky to be competitive on the track with a more nimble truck. 
Then people started thumbing RC10 and Losi truck conversion kits and the MT Class was all but ruined for “proper monster trucks. 
My impression at the time was that Tamiya made high quality models with great detail, but other brands were more track focused. Tamiya was a Scale model company that also made RC kits was the way I viewed it. 
that being said, the Clod was the Cadillac of RC at the time. It was built like a tank and there was no way I could afford one. 
Even though I like my Kyosho Vette , Lumchboxes and MPs always looked like more fun ( even if it was harder to get them around. The track on all 4 wheels ) The “Hopper and Hornet looked like upmarket hobby grade versions of the Nikko Panther I learned to drive on. 
I remember when Traxxas came on the scene and had Rtrs and Kits, and looked like they could eventually be a player in ten racing market, but at the time people approached them with caution.

Fast forward several decades to the 20teens. 
I got back into the hobby with a brushed Slash . I loved the reliable 2.4ghz radio and  waterproof electronics. Even on a Nihm pack and brushed motor it was as Quick ( in a straight line ) as anything race tuned I drove back in the day. Sure it was top heavy and rolled but you can’t have everything, right? 
soeaking if not having everything, I really missed the “build” part of the hobby . But when I broke parts, I was happy to have spares easily attained.

After about 5 years “back” in the hobby, here are my impressions (perceived or factual) of various modern brands

Tamiya and Kyosho ( present day) Both are very true to their Japanese roots in their product lines. They both rest heavily o the laurels of their nostalgic legacy products. They do both produce newer kits that innovate a little bit but neither are industry leaders in innovation at present ( That said I love my G6-01, one of the most fun RC chassis I have ever driven, and when I finally bought a used Re Re Pumpkin I realized what I’d been missing for 30 years) 

Traxxas and Arrma. 
They both seem to cater to the instant gratification “how fast does it go” Bro market, but they both make a quality product th at is good at what it does. 
after owning both I think my next RTR basher ( if I decide I want ) will be another AARMA . I think they both do the same thing, but AARMA has a little better value for the price point. 

Axial. they are kind of analogous to today’s crawler scene what Associated was to racing buggies back in the day.  There are higher end better performing brands and cheaper copies, but they are perceived as the benchmark and industry standard in that market.   
 

Associated and Losi. They are both still popular and prominent in racing but have diversified their product ranges.

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On 11/25/2020 at 9:10 PM, Saito2 said:

I always found the Associated story to be a fascinating one. Of course if you look at it from the Losi standpoint, AE was like the evil empire. Quite a nice little rivalry that seemed to all start over not getting a specific allotment of (then new) RC10s in trade for design help that Gil Los JR provided to AE. Team Losi and the JR-X2 were birthed from that disagreement. Always interesting when one company creates its biggest rival.

See also the story of how Ferrari's shoddy behaviour created not only the Ford GT40, but also Lamborghini as a car manufacturer. Previously they had built air conditioning and tractors. The owner went to Ferrari to buy a car and was so shocked by how arrogant they were and how bad their customer service was, he went off and built a car to beat them. Three years after they were founded, they built the Miura. Which is pretty good going.

1058204801_LamborghiniMiuraRoadster.thumb.jpg.a232b590072115dfb179a33747b56548.jpg

 

Traxxas are a horrible, immoral, predatory company and I will have nothing to do with them on principle.

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14 minutes ago, Yalson said:

See also the story of how Ferrari's shoddy behaviour created not only the Ford GT40, but also Lamborghini as a car manufacturer.

So true! I love that story and the Miura too. I wanted to name my daughter that, lol. I honestly don't care for Ferrari based mostly on Enzo's attitude. I liked watching Porsche best them in the movie Lemans.

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19 hours ago, Yalson said:

 

 

19 hours ago, Yalson said:

Traxxas are a horrible, immoral, predatory company and I will have nothing to do with them on principle.

Why so? I'm not that familiar with them.

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4 minutes ago, Mrowka said:

Why do? I'm not that familiar with them.

They try to use their size and dominant market position to force competitors out of the market through the use of spurious patent claims, often on innovations that were not theirs in the first place. I am not going to go into too much detail here, as I am certain this has been covered elsewhere on the site. But it's a terrible practice and it does neither the market nor us as RC enthusiasts any good at all.

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5 minutes ago, Mrowka said:

Why do? 

 

Why do? I'm not that familiar with them.

Long story short ( though not the complete story ) 

They successfully sued Arrma over the Nero design claiming “proprietary” design of the Revo ( even though 1:1 formula one cars have had inboard suspension for years ). This decision blocked sale of the Nero model in North America. The suit also basically killed Hobbico as a distributor, as well as nearly killed HPI, and Arrma.  They have also bullied certain RC YouTube influencers ( Nate and Abby Saylorn) .

If anyone knows more of the story feel free to correct  me or add on. 

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2 minutes ago, Dakratfink said:

They successfully sued Arrma over the Nero design claiming “proprietary” design of the Revo ( even though 1:1 formula one cars have had inboard suspension for years ). This decision blocked sale of the Nero model in North America. The suit also basically killed Hobbico as a distributor, as well as nearly killed HPI, and Arrma.  They have also bullied certain RC YouTube influencers ( Nate and Abby Saylorn) .

Not to mention the fact that Schumacher's Top Cat had lay-down inboard front suspension years before either design was introduced. Talk about two bald men fighting over a comb. Schumacher ended up having to delay the re-release of the Top Cat for a considerable time while they tried to negotiate with Traxxas over their right to use a design innovation that didn't belong to Traxxas in the first place. Solely so Traxxas didn't later decide to sue them and bankrupt them.

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Early Traxxas i loved, really enjoyed racing my TRX3. Now i just see them as yet another basher/toy company with generic "lets make an assembled missile" and paint it revolting colours.

Shame they didn't pursue the racing side of the hobby. They made some great 2wd chassis.

Lee

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3 minutes ago, Yalson said:

They try to use their size and dominant market position to force competitors out of the market through the use of spurious patent claims, often on innovations that were not theirs in the first place. I am not going to go into too much detail here, as I am certain this has been covered elsewhere on the site. But it's a terrible practice and it does neither the market nor us as RC enthusiasts any good at all.

I actually don't think the whole story of their various legal endeavors have been covered in-depth here. I'd love to collaborate with a few other members to write as objective and personal bias free timeline of events. 

Just now, Dakratfink said:

Long story short ( though not the complete story ) 

They successfully sued Arrma over the Nero design claiming “proprietary” design of the Revo ( even though 1:1 formula one cars have had inboard suspension for years ). This decision blocked sale of the Nero model in North America. The suit also basically killed Hobbico as a distributor, as well as nearly killed HPI, and Arrma.  They have also bullied certain RC YouTube influencers ( Nate and Abby Saylorn) .

If anyone knows more of the story feel free to correct  me or add on. 

As far as I know, arrma had it coming for them. Revo suspension parts are near identical and even fit on a nero as far as I know. Apparently Traxxas warned hobbico when the nero was first released to change the design, but Hobbico pretty much just said sod off. While traxxas themselves didn't kill hobbico, they had debts with several companies and manufacturers from previous years and apparently had poor managment, it is safe to say that the suit was the final nail in the coffin. I don't watch the RC saylors since I personally find them annoying sellouts, but I have heard that, and it makes sense now looking back at it, they haven't uploaded a video on a traxxas car in about 7 months. If you have a link to some more info about it I'd love to find out more. Maxamps did something similar with Jang from ultimate RC and threatened a libel suit, which has totally turned me away from them. 

I'd like to start a thread in the off-topic section since I already know quite a bit on the legal sagas of traxxas and would love to know more. 

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