Do we want it perfect or not?

[Saito2]

The introduction of the evidently very capable RTR Losi LMT has brought up an interesting situation. As an RTR that looks to perform very well, will it destroy the more home-grown and actual hobby-end of monster truck racing?  There are debates on both ends about killing the hobby aspect vs providing an entrance to those not privy to the ins and outs of putting together a monster to race. I've read the same might be said about the Traxxas TRX4 in the trial truck market. The odd thing is, we push for better performing vehicles as consumers and oft times criticize some half done efforts. I'm guilty of doing this for the SMT10 myself or rather just its axles at this point. Now that we have it all in one package potentially, we still aren't happy because its too good.

I think we, as Tamiya enthusiast, are used to not getting what we fully want from our manufacturer of choice. This breeds creativity in our hobby as we come up with means of improving Tamiya's designs or perhaps just better tailoring them to our needs. Its a big part of our hobby and perhaps why we stick with it so long.

Personally, for me, after giving it some thought, I'd be happy just to have access to better parts to build what I want. I sure would like some easily accessible, bulletproof axles for a monster that wouldn't completely break the bank. But even if ground-up custom builds aren't someone's thing, I think minimally, we should go back to kits. Its the RTR, no skill required aspect that totally ruins the hobby aspect. I know, its all about making money and selling to the broadest possible audience and that means RTR unfortunately, but it does the hobby no favors in the end.  So, how good do we really want it?

[mud4fun]

I built my own crawler and love it. It was more capable than anything available off the shelf at the time, especially at the price my DIY one cost. I still have it and we still use it constantly 20 years later. I enjoyed designing and building it myself. So I agree 100%, just give me a good range of basic modular parts and I'll build my own. For example in my case I used traxxas propshafts as they were cheap, readily available and strong. 

To make my chassis, A frames and lower trailing arms I used aluminium channel, tube and rods available in 1m lengths from B&Q at quite reasonable costs. Cut it all myself using a hacksaw in a vice, drilled and slotted using a Dremel or cordless drill and tapped holes by hand with tap wrenches. Huge satisfaction from doing it yourself.

[markbt73]

Back in 1987 or 88, if you recall, RCCA Magazine published a set of plans on how to build your own stock car chassis from 1/8" plywood. The premier hobby magazine at the time, showing you how to build a car from stuff you got from the hardware store.

Fast forward to today, and the Traxxas TRX-4 has cruise control. CRUISE. CONTROL. On a model car. Because not only is building and painting too tedious for their target demographic, but holding down a throttle trigger and actually, you know, driving the thing is just too much work.

This is not "progress."

[Saito2]

12 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

On a model car. Because not only is building and painting too tedious for their target demographic, but holding down a throttle trigger and actually, you know, driving the thing is just too much work.

Holy rusted metal Batman! And here I thought their self righting feature for flipping overturned vehicles back onto their wheels without having to walk over to them was lazy. Maybe they should start a subscription service where they send you videos of someone driving your car for you. That way the Traxxas customer doesn't even have to get up off the couch. Sheesh.

[Biz73]

The people who want to scratch build something to feel that sense of accomplishment can still do that. The people that just want to open a box and run the truck can do that. The only thing that has changed is that people have 1 more truck to praise/complain about.

[87lc2]

Great topic as usual.  I don't think the release of a perfect vehicle in any segment will have much effect on how true hobbyists go about their business.  I'm sure I'll get an LMT at some point, but it wont stop me from building custom Clod or shaft driven monster trucks.  In fact, a build idea popped into my head last week and I bought yet another SMT10 builder's kit.  I have issues with the SMT10 as I've spoken about before (mainly axles...), but for $200 it's still the best starting point for a scale monster truck out there and it's cheap.  I'm sure I'll get a few more if they keep them around long enough and I get more ideas...

I think the TRX-4 example that you brought up is the perfect reference to your point.  There really is not much more you can do with a trail truck than the TRX-4, it's pretty much perfect and has all the right features.  Even still, I have not brought myself to purchase one yet and just keep building trail trucks out of spare parts and used finds that I come across.  To me it's more fun making something out of nothing and making something imperfect outperform what it was originally thought capable of. 

Overall, I don't think vehicles like the TRX or LMT really change anything for guys like us other than offering another option on the market.  They do, however, bring people into these segments that most likely would not have otherwise jumped in.  That can only be a good thing in my eyes, especially since at least a small percentage of them will become true hobbyists once they realize just how much fun and rewading it can be.  For the one's that don't really catch the bug it's great for us as these vehicles ended up coming out cheap with upgrades on the second hand market.

 

[Killajb]

Saito2 is officially the "RC Whisperer" as far as I'm concerned.

 

I can see how genuine long-time RC enthusiasts are annoyed with all of the modern day wizardry but overall I think it helps to prolong our beloved hobby.  Active Vehicle Control.. I've never used it, but I understand it helps other novice drivers quite a bit.  If it weren't for the popularity of cars like the TRX4, companies wouldn't have such a large consumer base to sell to.

 

Speaking of the new Losi LMT.. looks nice and seems stout when watching videos of it.  Quite a few years ago, I had a Losi Muggy converted to brushless with a Castle Creations 1717 motor that would probably outperform it.  I enjoyed my self-converted monster and then sold it on when I moved to Japan.  If I want to do another I'll have at it my own way and not opt for Losi's offering.  However, the fact that Losi is enjoying success means that they can also produce other cars that I may be interested in such as the latest 1/18 scale Mini-T (brushless edition please).  

[Blista]

I want the best kits manufacturers can make.  I'm sorry if that upsets a handful of grumpy old men railing against how things aren't the same as when they were young. 

[TwistedxSlayer]

Its human nature. No matter which way something is done, weather its perfect or not, someone will find a reason to complain about it.

 

If its perfect then people will complain its stifling one part of the sector.

 

If its not perfect then people will complain its been badly attempted.

 

The manufacturers are unable to win either way. But as long as they make money I don't think they care too much?

[Juggular]

I'd say it's somewhere in the middle, and there is some science to it.  

Here is a tale of 2 tanks. Below is from Takom of China.  In the pursuit of "perfection," Chinese kit makers competed to add more and more details. They ended up ignoring that kit builders are humans.  1000 parts just for tracks!  I can't even pick up the parts. How could I file and sand those little things to fit into those tiny grooves?  This requires a dedicated commitment to win a real war.  But I only want to have some fun building it (besides, that war ended 100 years ago). 

I have to disagree with their definition of "perfection."   

On the other hand, Tamiya's version (below) allows you to just snap on. 

A hobby should be less like a punishment.  Mk VI is as posable as a brick, which would be boring, so Tamiya put in a motor.  I would have preferred some crude interior instead, but a motor is cool too. 

So, which do we want? 

A perfect representation of each link?  Or something fun to play with?  In this case, I'd go with Tamiya.  

In case of TRX4, it's the other way around.  It's too easy, too perfect. There is no involvement, no physical commitment.  

Many of us don't like RTRs because we don't get involved in the process of making it ours.  It's the IKEA effect.

According to the science, the "perceived contribution" should be high, but the effort should be easy.  

That's why Tamiya's instructions are easy to follow.  Tamiya does not even ask you to rummage through your tackle box to find the proper weight.  That's a delay and a hassle.  So Tamiya simply includes the weight to make it easy to build a scale jet fighter.  

Because Tamiya doesn't want this to happen...

On the other end of the spectrum, Tamiya would never fully switch to RTR. Because we must "contribute."  With contribution, our attachment to the kit becomes 5 folds. (I'm sure the girl above still likes that chair better than usable chair other people made)  That's the IKEA effect.  

In 1940s, they had dried milk and dried egg powders in the cake mix.  You just pour water and bake.  But the cake mix didn't sell.  How did they fix it?  They made it more complicated.  They took out the egg powder.  Now, you have to crack a few eggs to bake.  You are more involved!  It's easy, but you feel like you've done a lot.  And cake mixes started to sell again.  That's another IKEA effect. 

I think Tamiya understands this IKEA effect very well.  I sometimes get the feeling that they underestimate us and relies too heavily on the IKEA effect.  Fix the ORV diff problem, already!  But... that's just me.  I often forget that I might not be the target audience.  I think the vast majority of Tamiya's RC revenue comes from people who buy 1 or 2 RC cars in their life time.  A school boy who buys Lunchbox for Christmas and forgets all about it until after he's married later and buys a CC-01.  He's the target.  Would he know or care that Tamiya has re-boxed CC01 40 times? (I don't know the exact number)  

So, Tamiya's goal is making something "good enough to sell" for the maximum profit (which means the least effort --still, enough effort to let us know how CC01's rear diff needs spacers would be nice).  For folks like us, who know the Tamiya's lineup like back of our hands, Tamiya seems rather lazy.  But they are right on target when it comes to the IKEA effect.  I'd say that Tamiya's goal is to deliver 1) easy build experiences with 2) reasonable performance 3) in good style 4) at reasonable prices.  It's never about the best ground clearance, fastest speed or the most supple suspension.  Sales revenue and Perfection are two different things.  And, to their credit, their R&D puts out enough "fun" RC vehicles like Konghead, Dancing Rider, Lunchbox Mini, M-chassis every year.  

If they can easily sell thousands of DT02 by slapping on a dazed bear? why not?  Tamiya's perfection is being perfectly in the middle somewhere.  And I'm somewhat okay with that.  

 

[Saito2]

This subject in RC reminds me how it parallels the world of hot rodding here in the US. We Tamiya enthusiast are often "hot rodders" after all. Hot rodding started (for the most part) with 4 cylinder engines (4 bangers). When Ford introduced the Flathead V8, the 4 banger hot rodders had all the same issues some do with the LMT or TRX4. But that's progress. Then came the small block Chevy V8. Flathead diehards hated it because a stock one was as good or better than a full tilt modded flathead performance-wise. Gen 1 small block guys grumbled about how ubiquitous the GM LS motors have become. Again, progress. So, perhaps there is no limit and with each leap, we will find ways to improve upon it, no matter how good. The small block chevy had a very long run but nothing last forever. We might go for awhile with only tweaks, like 2wd buggy has been doing since mid motor but I'd guess eventually, there'll be another leap. We just can't see it yet from our perspective in time.

[mud4fun]

Agree with everything above. 

If you invest your time into something you attach a degree of loyalty and love for that item which you would not have with a RTR where you have invested nothing other than money. Brand loyalty is crucial to sustain a business in the long term.

It is same with my 1:1 classic Land Rovers. I have stripped them down to bare chassis and spent thousands of hours stripping, cleaning, repairing and painting every component. The vehicles now feel like a part of me. I could not bare to part with them. All my family have been involved in some way, they all have a degree of investment in them. This means my loyalty to the vehicles is strong despite them being slow, noisy, leaky, smelly and completely outclassed by just about anything made in the last 70 years.

Oddly though I have no brand loyalty to the current Land Rover company and do not support what they now stand for. My loyalty is with the classic vehicles. So if a new business started up that produced the classic Land Rover designs I would switch to buying from that company. Bit of a conundrum for Tamiya and probably why businesses are getting very tough on copyright and patent infringement?

Edit: I would add though, that you need to be rewarded for your investment in someway. Now in the case of my 1:1 Land Rovers it is the few days a year where we get deep snow and they become the only vehicles capable of driving out of our remote village - resulting in me grinning from ear to ear! They are also cheap and easy to fix, have great parts commonality with other models, can be fixed with basic hand tools and a socket set and have lots of clubs and social events based around them.

[mud4fun]

One other thing, sort of related.

I own a new modern pickup truck (Nissan Navara) in addition to the Land Rover Series 3 109" that I also use daily. If I drive into town in my 109" I get people stop and stare, young children stop and point, people come over and ask me questions about it etc. Sometime I go to local supermarket and can spend hours in car park chatting to people (of all ages) about the old car. I have even had mother's ask me if it would be OK if their children get to sit in it!! In comparison if I go into town in my Nissan nobody bats an eyelid.

Why? They are both pickup trucks, both similar size etc. The Nissan is a 200hp machine capable of 100+mph on the motorway and can challenge most exec saloons from the lights. The Land Rover on the other hand can barely challenge a pedal cycle.....

What is it that makes the Land Rover so loved and admired by people, even those that have no interest in pickup trucks?

I can only suggest it is because the old Land Rover has a 'face' and has charisma, character and soul and evokes childhood memories?

I think the same is true of many vintage Tamiya buggies. Sure, they are bettered by many cheap RTR toys these days but they have character and soul? Combine this with investment in building them and it explains the greater love we have for the kits over RTR's?

[MadInventor]

11 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Back in 1987 or 88, if you recall, RCCA Magazine published a set of plans on how to build your own stock car chassis from 1/8" plywood. The premier hobby magazine at the time, showing you how to build a car from stuff you got from the hardware store.

Fast forward to today, and the Traxxas TRX-4 has cruise control. CRUISE. CONTROL. On a model car. Because not only is building and painting too tedious for their target demographic, but holding down a throttle trigger and actually, you know, driving the thing is just too much work.

This is not "progress."

Wasn't it America that first introduced cruise control and electric windows to cars, and popularised the use of automatic gearboxes..... Traxxas are just catering to their target demographic. 

The LMT isn't 'perfect' as a model, it's just 'good' as a racer. There's no room for a sound module for scale nuts, the ground clearance is too low for the crawlers, the motor is too small for me (Why didn't they put in 4274 and run it on 4S, 3S is like training wheels on a bike ), and it's too expensive in the UK.................

So loads of room for improvement. 

In all seriousness, it's a very good truck, but it is pricey.  Tamiya should take a good long hard look at it, and their TXT-1, and try and come up with a half way house. Bite the bullet and fit steel gears in their axles, use traxxas style centre drive shafts instead of the expensive brass UJs (Who in their right mind uses brass in a modern transmission), and make a solid rear axle with no 4ws and they're more than half way there. 

I'd never bring myself to buy one as I'm too institutionalised with Tamiya monster trucks, I'd never get used to not having to repair the truck after each run......

[slimleeroy]

13 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Back in 1987 or 88, if you recall, RCCA Magazine published a set of plans on how to build your own stock car chassis from 1/8" plywood. The premier hobby magazine at the time, showing you how to build a car from stuff you got from the hardware store.

Fast forward to today, and the Traxxas TRX-4 has cruise control. CRUISE. CONTROL. On a model car. Because not only is building and painting too tedious for their target demographic, but holding down a throttle trigger and actually, you know, driving the thing is just too much work.

This is not "progress."

I wouldn't miss traxxas if they went away.  At all

[Mad Ax]

11 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Maybe they should start a subscription service where they send you videos of someone driving your car for you.

To be fair, watching RC videos is how many of us got through lockdown  

8 hours ago, Killajb said:

I can see how genuine long-time RC enthusiasts are annoyed with all of the modern day wizardry but overall I think it helps to prolong our beloved hobby.  Active Vehicle Control..

I was discussing the exact topic of this thread with a long-time RC flyer, and he brought up the exact opposite of this point.  In the early days, if you wanted to fly planes, you had to put in hundreds of hours cutting and building from plans, covering the whole assembly with tissue paper, throwing it into the wind and hoping the mechanical timer ran out before you lost sight of it.  Now we have planes with disaster recovery and return-to-base.  The technology is amazing, more so that it can be built into a tiny mass-produced box and sold for peanuts.  Without these developments, many people wouldn't be flying planes now.  Even a skilled flyer can lose hundreds of hours and thousands of pounds on a botched landing.

 

This leads to an interesting side-point about what you feel about using such aids.  When I was at school, everybody would fawn over the guitar players and the pianists but when I showed up and jammed an immaculate solo on my electric keyboard complete with a progressively-played accompaniment from the backing section, people would shrug and say "yeah, but the keyboard does all the work for you."  No, it doesn't.  Having to play a melody with one hand and whilst handling chords, fills, breaks and progressive volume changes to the backing tracks takes a lot of concentration.  I guess I'm a bit vain, because since those days I don't like to use aids and I like people to know I'm not using aids.  But if I was learning to fly then I'd want a plane with the aids on, so I can learn the basics without risking an expensive crash, and increase my skills so I can turn the aids off when I'm ready.

If you think about how land cost has increased in the last 50 years, and what sort of land you need to fly planes over, how much busier public spaces have become, how much stricter noise regulations are, it's almost a wonder flying clubs still exist.  Anything that keeps numbers up is welcome, and a combination of flying aids, cheap RTRs and quiet electric power has helped with that.  (The arrival of drones, their overnight popularity and the resultant regulations on owning flying models is another interesting development but slightly aside of the topic of this thread).

I look at the demographic on Tamiyaclub and I see a really diverse bunch.  We have people from opposite sides of the world, people with different amounts of disposable income, people on opposite ends of the political spectrum, people who love to restore vintage cars, people who prefer to build from box, people who collect NIBs and people who can't understand NIB collecting, people who build shelf queens and people who can't understand shelf queens, people who prefer to race and people who prefer to bash and people who prefer to drive like it's 1982 and people who prefer to drive in a true scale manner.  I could go on and on.  What largely brings us together (besides a love for Tamiya in particular as many of us collect other brands too) is a love for kits - at a guess, I'd say the vast majority of our member base prefer to have a kit than an RTR.  There's a certain tribal dynamic at play somewhere.  I think a lot of us perceive people who buy RTRs as being somewhat "different" to us.  We label "the youth of today" as having "no patience" or "demanding instant gratification."  But we're all so different from each other, is that simple difference really a threat to our dynamic?  I suppose we perceive the risk that if enough people buy RTRs, manufactures will discontinue kits.  I'm not sure this has happened, though.  Traxxas released the TRX-4 as an RTR but soon offered a kit version.  Despite a wash of RTRs in the scaler market, it was also the scaler market that gave us the "raw builder's kit" - OK, we've been able to buy race chassis with no body or wheels for a long time, but it was the scaler market that gave it a name to appeal to the hobby crowd.

For a long time, building a scaler in the UK meant buying used TLT axles (or a TLT kit, if you couldn't find any), a Stampede transmission from the Traxxas parts distributor, and a set of chassis rails from the US (including all the associated import costs) if you didn't have the tools or skills to make then yourself.  As the scene moved on (for example, proper shaped chassis rails over plain straight truck-style rails, or front-mounted motors with centre transfer boxes) one either had to increase one's skills or buy yet more stuff from abroad.  For a while the best scaler tyre on the market was Tamiya's ubiquitous BFG with every other lug snipped off.  Then SSD, RC4WD and others arrived with their special soft compounds and high-performing treads, and if you didn't have the wedge to import from overseas then you'd get left behind on the trails.  Now the UK has several web shops dedicated to the crawler scene, who will sell not just wheels and tyres but axle kits, transmissions, and all the other bits you need to put a scaler together from scratch.  Traxxas didn't kill the scene - arguably it's stronger now than it ever was.

Another positive thing from the scaler scene is that the arrival of high-performance updates (like portal axles and 4WS) hasn't killed off grass roots builds or competitions.  Class 1 is still hotly contested and the Book of Face is full of class 1 builds.  I'm not sure the rules have been updated yet for portals as I can't find mention of them anywhere, but Axial has just released a straight axle kit for the SCX10 III, turning one of the the most competitive out-of-the-box crawlers on the market into something that could be used for a build in the true spirit of class 1.

I did make a point in The Other Thread about how a potential influx of new members could cause a rapid change in the social dynamic of racing clubs, but in reality I doubt the solid axle scene will see an immediate influx of new members.  If anything, the pandemic is likely to have a far bigger impact on attendance numbers than any new release by Losi.

[Mad Ax]

13 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Traxxas TRX-4 has cruise control. CRUISE. CONTROL. On a model car. Because not only is building and painting too tedious for their target demographic, but holding down a throttle trigger and actually, you know, driving the thing is just too much work.

Y'know, I'm not really sure it needs to be a problem.  I mean, cruise control doesn't drive your full-size car for you - it just gives your foot a break on the highway.  Or these days, it helps you sit at the urban speed limit when it's so easy to creep over by a couple of mph and there are so many speed traps.

I can't see that I'd use cruise control on a course or a trail run.  You really want to be finessing that throttle stick over tricky obstacles.  Not even the TRX-4 is good enough to blat over everything wide open, and if you're trying to drive in a scale-accurate manner, you want to be going slowly anyway.

On the other hand, I have been to national scaler events with my SCX10 on 2S, while my friend has his TRX-4 on 3S.  Over the courses, we're both going the same speed, having the same challenges and struggling at the same obstacles.  But - and this is a big but - in between the courses, there's a lot of dull ground to cover.  It's a quirk of the environment.  The venue for the UK scaler nationals has some of the best rock crawling obstacles I've ever seen, but the topography means there's often a fair hike between the end of one course and the start of another.  An event-ready SCX10 on 2S doesn't go fast.  At all.  My Class 1 homebrew is even slower.  In fact, in between courses, I'll pick it up and carry it.  On a wet day that means I get my hands muddy, and that interferes with my enjoyment of my mid-event Mars Bar*.  That's where the 2-speed transmission, diff unlock and cruise control come in.  That trek between courses can involve relaxing conversation and a chance to look up from the ground and see the glorious countryside for a bit.  To be honest that's the main reason I went 3S in my scalers - I didn't really need the extra torque on the obstacles but I wanted the extra speed between courses.

Cruise control has been around for a while in the big rig scene.  My Beier unit has a cruise option.  I don't use it because our layouts are small, but if you were on a big layout and you had (for example) a carnival float with a dozen handset-controlled features, you could set your rig at a nice slow crawl and then put on a show for the spectators, without having to watch your speed too.

*It doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of my post-event hamburger, though.  Everybody knows a hamburger tastes better if you have dirt on your fingers, same as a hot dog tastes better with a bit of engine oil on it, and fish and chips tastes better if your fingers still smell like the inside of your motorcycle gloves

[MadInventor]

1 hour ago, Mad Ax said:

For a long time, building a scaler in the UK meant buying used TLT axles (or a TLT kit, if you couldn't find any), a Stampede transmission from the Traxxas parts distributor, and a set of chassis rails from the US (including all the associated import costs) if you didn't have the tools or skills to make then yourself.  As the scene moved on (for example, proper shaped chassis rails over plain straight truck-style rails, or front-mounted motors with centre transfer boxes) one either had to increase one's skills or buy yet more stuff from abroad.  For a while the best scaler tyre on the market was Tamiya's ubiquitous BFG with every other lug snipped off.  Then SSD, RC4WD and others arrived with their special soft compounds and high-performing treads, and if you didn't have the wedge to import from overseas then you'd get left behind on the trails.  Now the UK has several web shops dedicated to the crawler scene, who will sell not just wheels and tyres but axle kits, transmissions, and all the other bits you need to put a scaler together from scratch.  Traxxas didn't kill the scene - arguably it's stronger now than it ever was.

If it wasn't for Traxxas I wouldn't be running a TXT-1. I might have mentioned this one or 10 times before, the Tamiya brass drive shafts are rubbish. I also used Traxxas drive shafts in my War Rig build (Runs 6S on a 2400Watt 5674 brushless motor), and my skidder (Runs 3S on another 5674 brushless motor), which is geared down about 150:1, and I haven't broken one yet. 

[Bash]

Unfortunately it appears that some members of this forum are displaying the 2 most toxic traits that I feel keep people away from this hobby: Elitism and a Gatekeeper mentality, which is defined by the Urban Dictionary as "Someone who has the mindset that 'if you're not a fan/part of this (famous figure, a trend), you absolutely cannot join. Someone who always make things more complicated, always adds a controversy or an issue to a certain trend". I've seen too many examples of gatekeeping in particular in many of the circles that I am involved in, with an example being Formula 1, which has seen a huge influx of new fans thanks to younger drivers on Social Media and Netflix's Drive to Survive series. Some (mostly older fans who have been watching the sport for decades) have said things like that you are not a real F1 fan if you don't know who was the world champion in 1983, who drove for Williams in 1991, had to build your own TV out of wood and salvaged electronics to watch a race etc. At the end of the day I personally could'nt care less about what somebody knows about a certain topic, if you enjoy doing whatever, nobody should stop you from doing it. For instance, I wasn't alive when even the traxxas T-Maxx came out, I've never used a mechanical speed controller or a non-2.4ghz radio, I've have barely even used ni-cell batteries, had a Traxxas RTR as my first model,  and I feel that some people on this site would not concider me a true R/C hobbiest because of the afformentioned reasons. 

While it might sound like I'm trashing on this site a bit, I'm 100% not, I absolutely love this place, and I feel welcomed by all here, and it is much less toxic here than on other forums/Facebook. I just feel that some people need to be a bit more open-minded and welcome all people regardless of what brand or model they choose to ensure the long term success of this hobby. 

Back to the original topic, I don't believe that a perfect anything exists, or ever will for that matter. There will always be something to improve. Using the TRX-4 as an example since it has been mentioned multiple times, while it is light-years ahead of a CC-01, or a TLT-based truck, or an original SCX10, it still has flaws. The portal axles make the COG very high, which makes it hard to drive on the rocks. The battery is mounted too high and is in the wrong place. It also hasn't killed the comp scene either, in fact most people in the US at least still prefer a non-portal axle for competition, but it's mainly a personal preference and still comes down to how well you can drive and set up your rig. My first slash, which I've heard people here call a soulless, essentially self-driving car and a plastic children's toy elsewhere, is neither of those. All R/C models are toys. They serve only for self-entertainment and I can't strap myself into my Bigwig and drive it to school. I also think the Slash is the modern day equivalent of a grasshopper or hornet: An old design even when it was new, and objectively a poor car, but the driving experience makes up for it and is why it is immensely popular. It flips over easily, the tires have little grip, yet it is so much fun to power slide it out of a corner, jump it off a curb, and drive on all surfaces.

15 hours ago, Saito2 said:

I think minimally, we should go back to kits.

I'd love it as well, but these multi-million dollar companies aren't stupid either, and know much better than any of us outsiders about what sells. While I was immensely disappointed by Axial discontinuing the kit version of the bomber, which I have built, one of the managers at Axial said that the RTR outsold the kit by a factor of 6:1. I also think that Losi hasn't released a kit version of the LMT due to the both the success of Arrma's rolling chassis models, and that the last kit they did, the Rock Rey was an epic flop. Personally, I think the kit may be sold by TLR because of their racing and kit heritage. 

15 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Fast forward to today, and the Traxxas TRX-4 has cruise control. CRUISE. CONTROL. On a model car. Because not only is building and painting too tedious for their target demographic, but holding down a throttle trigger and actually, you know, driving the thing is just too much work.

This is not "progress."

You still have to steer it LOL. I might be wrong, but it sounds like you have never done a long trail event with a crawler. It can be a handy feature on flat, boring stretches' of trail and can free up a hand, both of which @Mad Ax mentioned. I also thought it was ridiculous when I first saw it, but people said the same about cars, early firearms, the steam engine just to name few. 

14 hours ago, Biz73 said:

The people who want to scratch build something to feel that sense of accomplishment can still do that. The people that just want to open a box and run the truck can do that. The only thing that has changed is that people have 1 more truck to praise/complain about.

^^^ @Biz73 you get it. Take this virtual trophy that I gave you

2 hours ago, slimleeroy said:

I wouldn't miss traxxas if they went away.  At all

You might not, but the hobby as a whole would probably be near-extinct if it wasn't for Traxxas. Love them or hate them, it's foolish to deny what they have done for the hobby as a whole IMHO

4 hours ago, Saito2 said:

This subject in RC reminds me how it parallels the world of hot rodding here in the US. We Tamiya enthusiast are often "hot rodders" after all. Hot rodding started (for the most part) with 4 cylinder engines (4 bangers). When Ford introduced the Flathead V8, the 4 banger hot rodders had all the same issues some do with the LMT or TRX4. But that's progress. Then came the small block Chevy V8. Flathead diehards hated it because a stock one was as good or better than a full tilt modded flathead performance-wise. Gen 1 small block guys grumbled about how ubiquitous the GM LS motors have become. Again, progress. So, perhaps there is no limit and with each leap, we will find ways to improve upon it, no matter how good. The small block chevy had a very long run but nothing last forever. We might go for awhile with only tweaks, like 2wd buggy has been doing since mid motor but I'd guess eventually, there'll be another leap. We just can't see it yet from our perspective in time.

I love using 1:1-scale analogies for stuff like this. Same thing is happing with electric cars and younger generation's perceptions of what is a classic car

[Dakratfink]

“ wouldn't miss traxxas if they went away.  At all”
 

iDK, I do kinda like my vintage/ modern “resto-mod” 

Stanpede. But probably because I built it like a kit from a mix of spare modern and vintage parts since they are all compatible. 

[Dakratfink]

17 minutes ago, Bash said:

Unfortunately it appears that some members of this forum are displaying the 2 most toxic traits that I feel keep people away from this hobby: Elitism and a Gatekeeper mentality, which is defined by the Urban Dictionary as "Someone who has the mindset that 'if you're not a fan/part of this (famous figure, a trend), you absolutely cannot join. Someone who always make things more complicated, always adds a controversy or an issue to a certain trend". I've seen too many examples of gatekeeping in particular in many of the circles that I am involved in, with an example being Formula 1, which has seen a huge influx of new fans thanks to younger drivers on Social Media and Netflix's Drive to Survive series. Some (mostly older fans who have been watching the sport for decades) have said things like that you are not a real F1 fan if you don't know who was the world champion in 1983, who drove for Williams in 1991, had to build your own TV out of wood and salvaged electronics to watch a race etc. At the end of the day I personally could'nt care less about what somebody knows about a certain topic, if you enjoy doing whatever, nobody should stop you from doing it. For instance, I wasn't alive when even the traxxas T-Maxx came out, I've never used a mechanical speed controller or a non-2.4ghz radio, I've have barely even used ni-cell batteries, had a Traxxas RTR as my first model,  and I feel that some people on this site would not concider me a true R/C hobbiest because of the afformentioned reasons. 

While it might sound like I'm trashing on this site a bit, I'm 100% not, I absolutely love this place, and I feel welcomed by all here, and it is much less toxic here than on other forums/Facebook. I just feel that some people need to be a bit more open-minded and welcome all people regardless of what brand or model they choose to ensure the long term success of this hobby. 

Back to the original topic, I don't believe that a perfect anything exists, or ever will for that matter. There will always be something to improve. Using the TRX-4 as an example since it has been mentioned multiple times, while it is light-years ahead of a CC-01, or a TLT-based truck, or an original SCX10, it still has flaws. The portal axles make the COG very high, which makes it hard to drive on the rocks. The battery is mounted too high and is in the wrong place. It also hasn't killed the comp scene either, in fact most people in the US at least still prefer a non-portal axle for competition, but it's mainly a personal preference and still comes down to how well you can drive and set up your rig. My first slash, which I've heard people here call a soulless, essentially self-driving car and a plastic children's toy elsewhere, is neither of those. All R/C models are toys. They serve only for self-entertainment and I can't strap myself into my Bigwig and drive it to school. I also think the Slash is the modern day equivalent of a grasshopper or hornet: An old design even when it was new, and objectively a poor car, but the driving experience makes up for it and is why it is immensely popular. It flips over easily, the tires have little grip, yet it is so much fun to power slide it out of a corner, jump it off a curb, and drive on all surfaces.

I'd love it as well, but these multi-million dollar companies aren't stupid either, and know much better than any of us outsiders about what sells. While I was immensely disappointed by Axial discontinuing the kit version of the bomber, which I have built, one of the managers at Axial said that the RTR outsold the kit by a factor of 6:1. I also think that Losi hasn't released a kit version of the LMT due to the both the success of Arrma's rolling chassis models, and that the last kit they did, the Rock Rey was an epic flop. Personally, I think the kit may be sold by TLR because of their racing and kit heritage. 

You still have to steer it LOL. I might be wrong, but it sounds like you have never done a long trail event with a crawler. It can be a handy feature on flat, boring stretches' of trail and can free up a hand, both of which @Mad Ax mentioned. I also thought it was ridiculous when I first saw it, but people said the same about cars, early firearms, the steam engine just to name few. 

^^^ @Biz73 you get it. Take this virtual trophy that I gave you

You might not, but the hobby as a whole would probably be near-extinct if it wasn't for Traxxas. Love them or hate them, it's foolish to deny what they have done for the hobby as a whole IMHO

I love using 1:1-scale analogies for stuff like this. Same thing is happing with electric cars and younger generation's perceptions of what is a classic car

I’m loving seeing that Chevrolet has a “crate” electric power pack now that one could use as a platform to make an E HotRod 

[markbt73]

I can see I'm bound to lose this argument. And that's fine. Actually, I'm glad in a way: this thread (and other recent conversations elsewhere) has reminded me that I like making stuff, not buying it, and hardened my resolve to get back to doing just that. It's cheaper, and far more satisfying.

And just FYI: it's not elitism; it's a deep-seated DIY mentality that comes from a combination of two grandfathers who practically lived in their workshops, a basic inherent cheapness and unwillingness to spend money, and a love of punk rock and indie movies and other pursuits in which you make something that's absolutely and unassailably yours.

I think I'm probably going to take a break from this place again, or at least back off quite a bit. I'm spending too much time philosophizing, and too little time at the workbench....

[BuggyGuy]

I don't mind cars having faults - but I despise faults that can't be solved without a 5 axis mill or some other elaborate piece of kit I don't have 

[TurnipJF]

I am all for models having room for improvement, as that is where the customisation part of the hobby comes in. However I don't think that I am okay with any company selling a product that simply won't work without hop ups and mods. It is nonsense like that which can put a newcomer off the hobby entirely.

[Mad Ax]

1 hour ago, Bash said:

Unfortunately it appears that some members of this forum are displaying the 2 most toxic traits that I feel keep people away from this hobby: Elitism and a Gatekeeper mentality

I added a like to this post because of some very good points well made, but I do feel the need to distance myself from the opening salvo.  One of the (many) points I tried to make in my overly long and rambling post is that we're a very diverse group, but we all get along together better than any other forum I've been a member of, and I don't know that anybody so far in this thread has said anything 'toxic' (except possibly the attack on Traxxas, which I can understand given some of the stories I have read about their business practices)